Max Hastings - 'Catastrophe'

[David Ridgus]

Steve

Thanks for the further information. Do you know if the French regard the 22nd August 1914 in the same way as the British regard the 1st July 1916; in other words do the majority of French people know more about this date than any other of the French Battles of WW1 ? Maybe it was different as so many battles were fought on their home soil, so different regions have their own battles to commemorate ?

Myrtle

I think the French equivalent of the Somme is that other bloodbath from 1916 - Verdun. I saw it once referred to as 'a complete war in itself, inserted in the Great War.' No single day, just the length and ferocity of the battle, The best book on Verdun, I think, remains Ian Ousby's 'The road to Verdun'

David

[phil andrade]

Hi Myrtle, Phil and all,

Phil - The overall casualties are from Jean Claude Delhez' book and he devotes several pages describing the meticulous way in which these were calculated. As you know the numbers vary greatly between the various engagements. I'll check when I get home but I can say with some certainty that very few German prisoners were taken by the French.

Steve,

Would it be bad manners of me to ask for a brief summary of these casualties ? I have schoolboy french which wouldn't stand the test of trying to read the relevant section . Is this volume two's conclusion ?

Would it be rude of me to PM Jean Claude himself ? I'm worried about being presumptuous.

Phil (PJA)

[rose of picardy]

Here is a talk by the author on BookTV.com if anyone is interested.

http://www.booktv.org/Program/15049/Catastrophe+1914+Europe+Goes+to+War.aspx

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Phil,

Having seen another recent thread on "hijacking" I don't want to divert this thread away from Max Hasting's book too much. It is on my Christmas list ! Having said that, his book is on 1914 and he gets at least some credit for mentioning the terrible losses of the Battle of the Frontiers, at least enough to stimulate Myrtle's interest but then doesn't seem to have covered it in the depth it warrants, so I'll answer your last points here and then if we want to continue on the theme perhaps we can on a separate thread ?

I can't post links but if you look up my thread on his book there's a link to his webpage which has his contact details on it. I would recommend getting the two volume work if you want to get a fuller understanding of the Battle(s) and their immediate aftermath (the summary version contains fewer statistics !), even with "schoolboy French !. Here are the casualty figures (killed, wounded or prisoner) for Rossignol (including St. Vincent): French 11,900 (incl. 2,800 killed; German 3,500 (incl.1,400 killed) and Neufchateau: French 3,050 (incl.1,050 killed); German 1,300 (incl.400 killed). (From your own research you will appreciate that it is difficult to quote exact figures, these are rounded to the nearest 50 using his methodology). Of the regiments of the Colonial Corps, these are the ones that suffered more than 1,000 casualties that day: 2e RAC (ceased to exist); 2e RIC 2,850; 1e RIC 2,800; 23e RIC 2,050; 3e RIC 2,025; 7e RIC 1,538. Including two generals killed and one wounded and taken prisoner, plus two colonels and two lt.colonels killed.

[phil andrade]

Many thanks, Steve.

Phil (PJA)

[Myrtle]

Having seen another recent thread on "hijacking" I don't want to divert this thread away from Max Hasting's book too much. It is on my Christmas list ! Having said that, his book is on 1914 and he gets at least some credit for mentioning the terrible losses of the Battle of the Frontiers, at least enough to stimulate Myrtle's interest but then doesn't seem to have covered it in the depth it warrants, so I'll answer your last points here and then if we want to continue on the theme perhaps we can on a separate thread ?

Steve

I haven't read Max Hasting's latest book but I did see and hear him talk about it recently. I didn't think that he would have gone into detail about the Battles of the Frontiers, so it is interesting to hear that he hasn't. Thank you for the information that you posted. I will add the Terence Zuber book to my list for future reading.

David

Verdun, as you say, is probably the battle that more French would recognise as having had an equivalent impact as the Somme for the British population.

[joerookery]

I will add the Terence Zuber book to my list for future reading.

This certainly has a lot of information in the English language however, I was floored by his premise which I considered indefensible.

[seaforths]

Heard MH speak about his new book recently and he mentioned that there was a day in 1914 when the French lost more men than the British on the first day of the Somme. Does he mention this in the book ? Wondering which day and where ?

He was interviewed on Radio 2 last week (Simon Mayo) and I am pretty certain he mentioned it during that interview. You should be able to locate it on the Radio 2 website and 'Listen again'.

[SteveMarsdin]

Peter Hart is another author who reminds us of that in his recent book ( a topic he elaborated on at last year's GWF conference). Sadly the WFA missed the memorable date off the anniversaries in their 2014 calendar; something David Tattersfield will seek to rectify in future years.

[phil andrade]

David

Verdun, as you say, is probably the battle that more French would recognise as having had an equivalent impact as the Somme for the British population.

Those Hellish twins, the Somme and Verdun....the latter described by Alistair Horne as " The Great War in microcosm".

They were, I suppose, unique as twin battles, the one very much impinging on the other.

There is one crucial difference in impact on population, though.

For all its notoriety, and its legendary symbolism, the Battle of Verdun accounted for only one tenth of all French battle deaths in the war.

This reflects the terrific loss sustained by the French armies elsewhere ; above all, the uniquely heavy casualties of those August 1914 battles we're discussing.

For the British, the Somme accounted for nearly one fifth of all their battle deaths, and is therefore more preponderant in this respect.

Phil (PJA)

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Phil and All,

An important point about Verdun is that due to Petain's "Noria" system of troop rotation many more regiments from all over France and beyond served there at sometime than otherwise would have done. From all over France there were local men who fought at Verdun.

Now that I can post links, here's the link to the thread on Jean-Claude Delhez' two volume work:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=171405&page=2

[phil andrade]

You're kind to do this, Steve.

Much appreciated.

As is your point about the "Noria" system.

Phil (PJA)

[David Ridgus]

Hi Phil and All,

An important point about Verdun is that due to Petain's "Noria" system of troop rotation many more regiments from all over France and beyond served there at sometime than otherwise would have done. From all over France there were local men who fought at Verdun.

Now that I can post links, here's the link to the thread on Jean-Claude Delhez' two volume work:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=171405&page=2

Steve

You are bang on about the importance of the 'Noria system'. It was this above all that gave Verdun it's almost mystical hold on French imagination. the idea of the road into Verdun as a 'sacred way' down which all French troops must walk in defence of Le Patrie.

Even the French memorials have a whiff of legend about them. I visited the Trench of the Bayonets and when you are there I defy you to maintain the rational view that the story must be a myth

David

[SteveMarsdin]

Merry Christmas Everyone !

I opened the book this morning ! and yes, Max Hastings does devote a handful of pages to the Battle of the Frontiers, more importantly he does flag up the great losses. From a quick flick through his style seems very readable but..........In those few pages on 22 August 1914 there are some striking errors; I would go as far as saying some of the worst I've seen.

He mentions Charles Mangin attacking Tertigny (it's Tintigny) at the head of 120eRIF. As a link he then uses his (Charles Mangin's) book on the "Force Noire" to their first use at nearby Rossignol. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, there were no black troops at Rossignol; more importantly he put the wrong Mangin at Tintigny, Charles was further north at the Battle of Charleroi !!!

He has General Trentinian ordering attacks at Belle-Vue, Virton (he and his division didn't fight there but at nearby Ethe). He mentions the 12e Hussards been decimated by rifle fire, it was the 14e (the 12e fought in Alsace).

I still look forward to reading the whole book which I'd hoped was an updated version of Tuchman"s readable book but these inaccuracies ,in the pages that deal with a subject that I know something about, will cause me to question the rest of the content.

[seaforths]

Merry Christmas Everyone !

I opened the book this morning ! and yes, Max Hastings does devote a handful of pages to the Battle of the Frontiers, more importantly he does flag up the great losses. From a quick flick through his style seems very readable but..........In those few pages on 22 August 1914 there are some striking errors; I would go as far as saying some of the worst I've seen.

He mentions Charles Mangin attacking Tertigny (it's Tintigny) at the head of 120eRIF. As a link he then uses his (Charles Mangin's) book on the "Force Noire" to their first use at nearby Rossignol. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, there were no black troops at Rossignol; more importantly he put the wrong Mangin at Tintigny, Charles was further north at the Battle of Charleroi !!!

He has General Trentinian ordering attacks at Belle-Vue, Virton (he and his division didn't fight there but at nearby Ethe). He mentions the 12e Hussards been decimated by rifle fire, it was the 14e (the 12e fought in Alsace).

I still look forward to reading the whole book which I'd hoped was an updated version of Tuchman"s readable book but these inaccuracies ,in the pages that deal with a subject that I know something about, will cause me to question the rest of the content.

Merry Christmas !

It is such a shame that authors do not ensure that their information is correct before the books go into print. After all, these books are not cheap, especially the hard backed copies. I was quite frustrated with another book recently for the same reason. I am by no means an expert, quite a novice in fact but this particular book was so bad in places with its grammatical errors, it interrupted the flow of reading and left me wondering how much care was taken in the research as there were one or two mistakes that even I was able to spot.

[David Ridgus]

I worry that editing is becoming a bit of a lost art in the modern publishing houses. Both the length of many books and the fact that they are littered with factual and grammatical errors, suggest a growing carelessness. If I was in full 'in my day' mode I might argue that it was the influence of modern media and it's casual approach to such matters. However it's Christmas so I'll put the curmudgeon back in the box!

David

[hazelclark]

However it's Christmas so I'll put the curmudgeon back in the box!

David

If you have any children or grand children, you will be doing them a favour if you keep him with his nose partially out of the box at all times.

hazel C

[David Ridgus]

If you have any children or grand children, you will be doing them a favour if you keep him with his nose partially out of the box at all times.

hazel C

Hazel

I think my two daughters (18 and 21) would say they have seen a fair bit of him over the years! Having an English and Historyt teacher for a Dad has been a mixed blessing for them

David

[phil andrade]

There is a form of hubris in the works of some of these very popular authors.

They have become so successful that they try and storm the ramparts without taking the care that proper scholarship requires.

Steve's allusion to the Hastings botch on the Battle of the Frontiers exemplifies this. I would never have known about the errors....the style and power of the narrative swept me along, leaving me thoroughly captivated and entertained throughout.

I have seen this sort of thing before. John Keegan, a doyen of modern military history, wrote a book about warfare on the North American continent. He devoted a section to the American Civil War, of course, and in his depiction of the Battle of Shiloh, he mentions how the Confederate commander, A.S. Johnston, ordered a retreat on the second day of fighting. The fact that he had been killed on the first day escaped him.

The errors made by Hastings are not as glaring as that, but they testify to the same sort of complacency that widespread popularity engenders.

Christmas greetings to you all !

Phil (PJA)

[seaforths]

I worry that editing is becoming a bit of a lost art in the modern publishing houses. Both the length of many books and the fact that they are littered with factual and grammatical errors, suggest a growing carelessness. If I was in full 'in my day' mode I might argue that it was the influence of modern media and it's casual approach to such matters. However it's Christmas so I'll put the curmudgeon back in the box!

David

I do recall listening to a talk given by two authors who had made a mistakes and both stated that it was not down to the editor to check the validity of content. That said, surely the editor should be able to spot grammatical errors etc. This would imply that it is the sole responsibility of the author to ensure that the content of their book is as accurate as it can be but I do agree standards have dropped in authorship and editorial areas.

[Myrtle]

Steve

Thank you for pointing out the errors. If I get round to reading that particular book I will add your corrections to that section.

[ianjonesncl]

Well Done Max.

a. He has served and he can relate to that, which most 'academic' authors cannot.

Harry

On whose side ?

[ianjonesncl]

I received an autographed copy as a Christmas present.

The early chapters about the decent into war and the various interactions I found very interesting.

As the focus changed to more military matters I began to loose interest with what seemed just a series of often bizarre anecdotal episodes stringing together Sir Max's opinions, Some of those opinions I think are valid and worthy of consideration, however, for me, I found the flow started to go.

I have given up at page 322 - personally the pillow fight of the Royal Flying Corps and it's influence on the Battle of the Marne escapes me. However, I am sure Forum members will no doubt be able to point me in the right direction.

Ian

[joerookery]

As a small defense to authors sometimes the publisher makes changes and authors are given hours to discover let alone fix anything in hundreds of pages. I am sure different publishers are less chaotic but the cost of violating the print plant schedule is a factor.

[Bernard_Lewis]

In my experience the editor will correct (most) errors of grand-ma and spellin but not the facts; on the basis that the 'expert'** author who is writing about the 4th Blankshires or Anytown in the Great War will have, hopefully, got (most of) it right...

** Expert as in the phonetic 'ex' being a has been and the phonetic 'spurt' being a drip under pressure...

A statement by the author that the war commenced in 1913 would be corrected, of course .

My wife is currently reading my latest opus before if shortly goes off the publisher and I will get one (used to be two) sets of proofs for checking from the publisher in due course. Bound to get something wrong...even in print!

Bernard