Max Hastings - 'Catastrophe'

[paulgranger]

He's a member of the elite - 'e'll eat anything

[Len Trim]

Norman,

Dr. Johnson's sayings often have a wee bit of truth in them sadly often at my fellow Scots expense. I particularly love: Oats, fed to horses in England and to people in Scotland. One just has to laugh.

Regards

Len

[kenneth505]

I suspect a mod will combine this with an extant thread but was wondering if anyone had worked through

Book review: 'Catastrophe 1914: Europe Goes to War,' by Max Hastings

The last one of his I read was great for the first half and then seemed as if a swtich had been thrown and the grad students took over and ... boring.

Listened to the History Extra podcast, and it certainly sounds good...

[rolt968]

There is what seems to be a balanced review of Catastrophe and two other books in this week's Times Literary Supplement.

Roger.

[jscott]

I would recommend the book wholeheartedly. I was completely absorbed for the duration, and it has given me a renewed interest in the first year of the war. An absolute no brainer for the price (which I think is about £12 from memory).

[joerookery]

I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I wish I had his ability to wind the story so well. I did get the impression he got a little weary by the end but all thumbs up.

I have two comments that are not really critical just comments – he laments that many histories are British-based and really come into flower with the BEF. Then he does the same thing.

The second comment is that at one point he described the Serb culture has forward-looking. My limited experience always has them backward looking. All roads lead to 1389.

Really worth reading.

[Myrtle]

Heard MH speak about his new book recently and he mentioned that there was a day in 1914 when the French lost more men than the British on the first day of the Somme. Does he mention this in the book ? Wondering which day and where ?

[CROONAERT]

Heard MH speak about his new book recently and he mentioned that there was a day in 1914 when the French lost more men than the British on the first day of the Somme. Does he mention this in the book ? Wondering which day and where ?

I don't know whether it's in the book (probably is) as I haven't read it, but the date being referred to is likely to be 22nd August 1914 where the French lost over 27,000 in dead alone (Battle(s) of the Frontiers)

Dave

[Myrtle]

Thanks Dave

Do you know where I can read more about the Battle of the Frontiers, preferably in English ?

[joerookery]

There is some in The Great War Dawning - Imperial Germany and its Army at the Start of World War One. Not the focus but it is in English. http://www.militaria.at/Default.aspx

[Myrtle]

Thanks joerookery

That looks like quite a read. I would like to find out if any North African soldiers were involved in the battle on 22nd August 1914. Slightly off topic but MH did mention it while promoting his book.

[joerookery]

Sorry Myrtle but you won't find that in this book. English language texts are as you know rather sparse.

[CROONAERT]

Thanks Dave

Do you know where I can read more about the Battle of the Frontiers, preferably in English ?

'The Battle of the Frontiers - Ardennes 1914' by Terence Zuber covers much of the Battle(s) of the Frontiers in English.

Dave.

[Myrtle]

Thanks Dave

Do you know if the North African men fought in the French army on the 22nd August 1914 ?

[phil andrade]

Surely they did. One of the divisions that took the most catastrophic losses that day was - IIRC - a colonial division ; my assumption is that this implies Algerian and/or Moroccan troops.

Editing : Third Colonial Division of Infantry, Battle of Rossignol, 22 August 1914, with a memorial commemorating more than four thousand of its dead from the fighting that day. That's four thousand dead, mark you, implying total casualties well in excess of ten thousand : incredible !

Editing again : my assumption might be wrong....it could be that the " colonial" alludes to the role of the soldiers in serving in the colonies, rather than the provenance of the men themselves. But I'm confident that there is at least one " African" unit that engaged in battle at Rossignol.

Phil (PJA)

[cdr]

Eh,

The 3rd Colonial division at Rossignol was part of what the French call 'La coloniale blanche'. These units (who came from the troupes de marine) were formed with French men

who volunteered for service in the colonies (so no Algerians or Moroccan troops). A Moroccan division reached the front late in august 1914

hope this helps

Carl

[phil andrade]

Thanks Carl.....my suspicions were aroused, and I was actually adding an edit to my post above, admitting that I might have misunderstood the nuance of " colonial", which crossed with your corrective comments.

Phil (PJA)

[Myrtle]

Phil & Carl

Thank you for your replies.

I will do a little more research and start a new thread if I am wondering anything further re. late August 1914.

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Carl, Phil, Myrtle and All,

As Carl says the Colonial troops that fought on 22 August were not native North Africans; apart from one exception, they weren't even based there. On mobilisation the Colonial Corps consisted of three divisions of two brigades each, all from mainland France (garrisoned at the major ports and Paris). On mobilisation one brigade from the 1e Division was sent to the Italian frontier, the other five (2e division, 3e division and the 5e Brigade) formed the Colonial corps attached to Langle de Cary's 4e Armee. They had no cavalry but on mobilisation were assigned two cavalry regiments, from both ends of the spectrum: the 6e Regiment de Dragons de Reserve (on requisitioned farmhorses) and the elite 3e Regiment de Chasseurs d'Afrique. This latter regiment was the only one based in North Africa but was comprised entirely of men from mainland France. On the 22 August 1914 the 2e Division was 4e Armee reserve and was only committed late in the day but 3e division (Rossignol) and 5e Brigade (Neufchateau) suffered heavy casualties.

The 26/27,000 figure reflects total French killed; of these around 16,000 were on the French 3e/4e armee: German 5th/4th Army front (the Battle of the Frontiers). Unlike the Somme, the Germans suffered substantial casualties (estimated from 40% to 60% of the French figure)

Zuber's book is the most recent book in English but I would recommend Jean Claude Delhez' two volume work in French "Le jour de deuil de l'armee francaise". they run to over 1,300 pages and are available direct from the author (there is a separate thread on them - but I can't seem to post the link). He also has a condensed version available through Amazon at just under 200 pages "La Bataille des Frontieres"

[David Ridgus]

I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I wish I had his ability to wind the story so well. I did get the impression he got a little weary by the end but all thumbs up.

I have two comments that are not really critical just comments he laments that many histories are British-based and really come into flower with the BEF. Then he does the same thing.

The second comment is that at one point he described the Serb culture has forward-looking. My limited experience always has them backward looking. All roads lead to 1389.

Really worth reading.

Excellent book, but like you I was bemused by his view of the Serbs as an enlightened forward looking race. In education, treatment of women, and politics they were every inch the backward looking agrarian society. Similarly the idea of Austro Hungary as some Ruritanian backwater is equally flawed. The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was many things but a blow for modernism and progress wasn't one of them.

David

[phil andrade]

The 26/27,000 figure reflects total French killed; of these around 16,000 were on the French 3e/4e armee: German 5th/4th Army front (the Battle of the Frontiers). Unlike the Somme, the Germans suffered substantial casualties (estimated from 40% to 60% of the French figure)

An anecdote in Zuber's book alludes to the experience of German burial parties who cleared the field after one of these battles, and reported burying five Frenchmen for every two Germans, which lends credence to the 40%....with the qualification that the German wounded outnumbered their killed by a greater margin than those of the French, who, for a number of reasons, sustained an astonishingly high fatality ratio among their casualties.

Phil (PJA)

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Phil,

Yes, Terence Zuber was where I got the 40% figure from but even if you assumed 50% it still makes it a very bloody encounter for both sides.

To add further clarification for Myrtle: the Battle of the Frontiers is better described (by both Zuber and Jean-Claude Delhez) as a series of interlinked engagements. According to Delhez, Rossignol was one of fifteen such engagements. At Rossignol the total losses (killed, wounded or prisoners) were: French 11,900 and German 3,500. On the overall 3e/4e Armee:5th/4th Army front he gives the figures of 17,000 French and 9,000 German killed on 22 August 1914.

[Myrtle]

Steve

Thanks for the further information. Do you know if the French regard the 22nd August 1914 in the same way as the British regard the 1st July 1916; in other words do the majority of French people know more about this date than any other of the French Battles of WW1 ? Maybe it was different as so many battles were fought on their home soil, so different regions have their own battles to commemorate ?

[phil andrade]

Thanks for the info regarding Zuber's estimate of Germans killed on 4th and 5th Army fronts on 22 August 1914, Steve.

In truth, I am taken back at how high the German figure is : bearing in mind the reported ratio of wounded to killed in German returns, this implies something in the order of fifty thousand casualties. As you suggest, no picnic for the Germans.

Without wishing to subvert the thread from the topic of the book, do you have any figures regarding PoWs, Steve ?

Many authors seem to assume that the outrageous French losses in killed and missing in that early period were all fatalities ; with the consequent claim that more Frenchmen were killed in 1914 than in any other year. Surely, the 319,000 Frenchmen who were posted as killed or missing in August and September alone included a high proportion - perhaps half - who were taken prisoner ?

And what claims did the French make regarding Germans captured in those first months ?

Your help appreciated.

Phil (PJA)

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Myrtle, Phil and all,

Phil - The overall casualties are from Jean Claude Delhez' book and he devotes several pages describing the meticulous way in which these were calculated. As you know the numbers vary greatly between the various engagements. I'll check when I get home but I can say with some certainty that very few German prisoners were taken by the French.

Myrtle - in short "No", for the French it was a great defeat which meant the war was going to be fought largely on French soil. Most French histories tend to brush over it and start at the Marne, from what you say Max Hastings doesn't give it much coverage either !. The Germans don't bring it up too as there were many incidents of atrocities at the same time. It is only of late that, thanks to the efforts of some local Belgians and the contacts they have made with the regiments and descendants of those French that fought, that full commemorations take place each year. The only case to my knowledge where the French take the lead is one of the ceremonies at Rossignol, where the marines turn up by the coachload and with a band (usually). As Carl pointed out, the Colonial Corps was previously, and is now, known as the Troupes de Marine. Their other famous mainland action was at Bazeilles, near Sedan in 1870 (1 September). As Rossignol and Bazeilles are only 30 miles apart they have a weekend commemoration covering both battles and locations the second weekend of September.