depaor01 Posted 30 October , 2013 Share Posted 30 October , 2013 I'll check it out tomorrow LF, and maybe get a shot of the innards. Thanks for the observations, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 October , 2013 Share Posted 30 October , 2013 LF Your only problem is that they didn't make dummy 36's in the way they did No 5's. There were no specially made 36's as 'dummies for throwing practice'. The only 36 named 'dummy' were specially made sectioned grenades. All others followed the 1921 specification of being modified from live grenades (before filling). So Dave's cannot be either a dummy or a training grenade, unless the IRA painted it to match normal convention (logical as ex army men would have been using them). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryww1 Posted 30 October , 2013 Share Posted 30 October , 2013 Hi Gunner Bailey sounds like you should write a book on this subject of grenades, I would buy one for sure. Regards Henry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 30 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 30 October , 2013 LF Your only problem is that they didn't make dummy 36's John John, There were 2 Lists of Changes for the No.36 ' Practice ' or Dummy - grenade Nos. 25114 dated 2 January, 1922 and 25319 dated 5 October, 1922. Grenade, .303 rifle, practice, No. 36 mark II - Practice ( all over white paint ) LOC wording " Grenades of the above mentioned description will have the exterior painted white ". Why then, could Dave's not be a No.36 Mills ' Practice ' Grenade - painted all over with white paint ? Please explain. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 30 October , 2013 Share Posted 30 October , 2013 LF. Because there is no makers name on the front. Therefore it does not conform to the production standards as set out in the L series documents for the 23 Mk III and the 36 Mk I M. Also as holes were drilled in the bodies for practice grenades this does not conform. Please re read my post #378 - though I may have been a year out. These practice grenades were taken from the production lines or were reject bodies. They all have the maker's name or initials on the front. Dave's grenade does not have this, therefore it was not made to the approved standards, and may have been an unofficial copy - especially with that plug. I have a similar copy 36 made for terrorists in Africa in the 1980's. Nothing's new. John Hi Gunner Bailey sounds like you should write a book on this subject of grenades, I would buy one for sure. Regards Henry Thanks Henry. Can you contact me regarding the Vickers soon? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 30 October , 2013 Share Posted 30 October , 2013 If I may put my head over the parapet, my example appears white, but I think it may be silver paint applied some time after manufacture. Carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 31 October , 2013 Share Posted 31 October , 2013 I think the paint is a secondary and distracting issue. The main evidence is the body and the baseplug. Dave Is it possible to get a photo of the grenade interior? Does it have a centrepiece, as that would be worth seeing? Also there appears to be a small mark near the top of the lever that could be a makers mark. Can you check that? Looking again at the baseplug it seems to be seated in a collar of some sort, fitted inside the body. Can you confirm that? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 31 October , 2013 Share Posted 31 October , 2013 OK chaps, here goes: Base plug - protruding piece is wedged and doesn't come out Handle does have a mark, but it's a single M - perhaps the rest has been worn off: Interior: "Inside" of base plate: Finally, the innards: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 31 October , 2013 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2013 Dave, The head of the Striker is rounded, as seen on either the No.23 Mark III or the No.36, so it could be for either. The metal protruding from the base plug, should not be there. It is either a broken rod end if so then for No.23 Mark III, or if a broken screw from a Gas Check plate, then for a No.36. The base plug is typically that seen on a No.36 and if so, would not have been for a rod fitting, but for the screw of a Gas Check plate. I still think it is a Mills No.36, made sometime after 1920. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 31 October , 2013 Share Posted 31 October , 2013 The base plug is typically that seen on a No.36 and if so, would not have been for a rod fitting, but for the screw of a Gas Check plate. Regards, LF LF 1. This is not in any way a typical 36 baseplug. If you look carefully, the two slots have rounded ends. The standard 36 base plug has square ends to these slots. 2. There are no markings on it. Yes, some No 5 and No 23 base plugs were taken from production lines and were unstamped BUT the standard 36 plug (even in WW1) has the details moulded into them as they are made. This baseplug was made without any moulded details. So is completely untypical. 3. The lever may relate to Montreal Munitions but could easily be a later addittion. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2013 John John, I get the impression that you are somewhat convinced Dave's grenade is a Mills No.23 Mark III. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2013 LF 1. This is not in any way a typical 36 baseplug. If you look carefully, the two slots have rounded ends. The standard 36 base plug has square ends to these slots. John John, Contrary to what you posted, here are but 3 examples of Mills No.36 grenade baseplugs with ' rounded ' ends. What you should really be saying, is that in ' your ' opinion, you think Dave's grenade is a Mills No.23 Mark III, although you are unable to prove that conclusively. In the same way, in my opinion, I think Dave's grenade is a Mills No.36, but cannot prove that conclusively. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 Spotted on 29th Oct 2013 by Giles Guthrie who was guiding on a walk (or in my case hobble) on the track of the RDF 10th Btn advance during the Battle of the Ancre - a number 20 rifle grenade possibly fired from somewhere in the vicinity of Y ravine. We left it in situ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 Centurion It's a 1913 Kugel - German Army for the use of. John John, Contrary to what you posted, here are but 3 examples of Mills No.36 grenade baseplugs with ' rounded ' ends. What you should really be saying, is that in ' your ' opinion, you think Dave's grenade is a Mills No.23 Mark III, although you are unable to prove that conclusively. In the same way, in my opinion, I think Dave's grenade is a Mills No.36, but cannot prove that conclusively. Regards, LF LF All your three photos show standard plugs. Dave's plug has a distinct rounding at the inside end of the slots. This is not typical. Also what is your explanation of the blank plug when all standard plugs have moulded details on them? I am not saying this is a 23 Mk III or a 36 at present. If it is a non approved copy then it's just a Mills copy similar to either the 23 Mk III or the 36. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 Centurion It's a 1913 Kugel - German Army for the use of. Funny that as the identical model in the Passchendaele museum is labelled as a no 20 rifle grenade and given the position it was in someone in the British line would have had to fire it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon127 Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 No doubt about it. That is, as John says, an early war German Model 1913 kugelhandgranate. Even some of the well known museums on the Western Front have some 'interesting' labels on their exhibits. I was in the Fortress Redoubt (Royal Sussex Regiment) museum recently and saw a Great War British Webley and Scott flare pistol labelled as a German Fegyver (which is Hungarian!) flare pistol even though it said 'Webley, London & Birmingham' on the side! On pointing this out to my girlfriend she simply rolled her eyes and said: 'It must be hard work, knowing everything...' Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 1 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2013 I am not saying this is a 23 Mk III or a 36 at present. If it is a non approved copy then it's just a Mills copy similar to either the 23 Mk III or the 36. John John, On that we can agree. Regards. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 ...on the track of the RDF 10th Btn advance during the Battle of the Ancre] Centurion: As a matter of interest, did the walk/hobble take place in Newfoundland Park itself or in the field to the right by the crossroads? I've been trying to pinpoint the area for the start of the 10th Bn. attack for years. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 Funny that as the identical model in the Passchendaele museum is labelled as a no 20 rifle grenade and given the position it was in someone in the British line would have had to fire it. I'll be kind to the museum and say that I expect the label has been moved. The difference between a 1913 Kugel and a No 20 is like the difference between an apple and a marrow. A bit of knowledge and you would never mistake one for the other. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 1 November , 2013 Share Posted 1 November , 2013 LF. You may want to have a look at Dave Sampson's Mills Grenades website regarding baseplugs. There is only one plug, a WW2 English Electric which is close in shape (outer edge) and it still does not have the rounded inner ends of the two slots. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2013 I have changed the title of this Thread from WW1 Mills Grenades to WW1 Hand Grenades both British and Enemy, as I am sure there are many members who have interesting WW1 Grenades in their collections apart from the British Mills Grenades, and who would like to share those grenades, be they British, German or from any other WW1 country's types of grenades. This Thread has proven so interesting as it related to the Mills Grenades, so hopefully, we shall see some very interesting posts from members regarding all the other types of WW1 grenades be they British - German - French - Turkish or other. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2013 Handing out Mills grenades prior to setting off on a Trench Raid. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 3 November , 2013 Share Posted 3 November , 2013 Handing out Mills grenades prior to setting off on a Trench Raid. Interesting picture from a kit point of view - the Warrant Officer handing out the grenades appears to have a private purchase SD jacket, with a false belted section, V-cuffs and lower bellow pockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2013 Firing a No.3 Rifle Grenade, using an improvised wooden support, from a trench at Grand Flamergrie Farm on the Bois Grenier sector of the line, February 1915. LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 3 November , 2013 Author Share Posted 3 November , 2013 Handing out Mills grenades prior to setting off on a Trench Raid. LF Andrew, Here is something similar, which the book lists as a Yeomanry NCO's Jacket, with the shoulder straps removed and someone has also added a detachable rifle patch. I am sure that if the type of WO's jacket shown in the black and white photograph, which is almost like an officer's jacket from the collar down, appeared today almost 100 year later, many would question its authenticity due to it being somewhat unusual. Hence the historical, and authentication value of these photographs. Regards, LF C/o J. Bodsworth's British Uniforms of the Great War, 1914-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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