War cemeteries a sham?

[egbert]

Brother Skipman sent a translation! Bless him .

And where is his blessed translation?

[SteveMarsdin]

Why mark it? I've never seen that.

Cemetery symmetry - most of these cemeteries have a symmetrical design laid out many years ago, to subsequently remove* several of the grave markers could spoil the aesthetic appearance. (* The repatriation of bodies at the request of the families continued for decades)

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... (* The repatriation of bodies at the request of the families continued for decades)

Just to clarify - whatever repatriation of bodies you are talking about here were other than from IWGC / CWGC cemeteries (yes ?).

Tom

[SteveMarsdin]

Just to clarify - whatever repatriation of bodies you are talking about here were other than from IWGC / CWGC cemeteries (yes ?).

Tom

Yes, not CWGC, I was responding to Geraint concerning French cemeteries (or French/German cemeteries), the ones I was referring to are in southern Belgium.

[gerd.deboeck]

What we need here is for any Belgian pals who have school children or Grand parents living with them to ask them to reveal the level of WW1 and CWGC input they received??

If the CWGC input was nil or little, then hardly surprising 'make your own mind up' springs to mind or whatever is passed on from generation to generation: right or wrong!

I must say that I find some comments on this topic rather insulting for me and my fellow countrymen.To get things straight: I'm am Belgium born and bred (as you will probably see at my spelling mistakes) 42 years old and NOT living near the salient. This said,we do have CWGC graves in Antwerp to from both world wars, and I or nobody I know has ever thought of them as being 'EMPTY'. Nor do we look at them as Picnicor recreation area! When I was a child I visited the Salient with my parents(also Belgian) and they told me that each grave had at LEAST one body in it.The same I was told at school. My son, 10 years old, and Belgian, went on a school trip to the sea in October and also spend a day in the salient. They had a local guide who told them a lot about the war and also that there were tens of thousands soldiers buried in the graveyard and that every marker stood for a grave.

So I do not understand where my countrymen who are "certain" that the graveyards are (almost) empty get there information but I and 99% of all otherBelgian KNOW this not to be true.

Concerning the CWGC input at school, we do not have a tradition in our school of inviting these organisations but I'm sure that they do provide the TEACHERS with the info they need. They can even download information leaflets in Dutch from the CWGC website.

So please stop this nonsense and concentrate on the facts instead of urban legends.

Gerd

[roel22]

So I do not understand where my countrymen who are "certain" that the graveyards are (almost) empty get there information but I and 99% of all otherBelgian KNOW this not to be true.

You are absolutely right. Thing is: some people in this thread (like me) have met locals belonging to the 1% who believe the graves are empty. I've never taken such assumptions seriously in whatever way, but I've experienced myself those people really do exist.

Roel

[truthergw]

Brother Skipman sent a translation! Bless him . As you say Steve - that one is an exception. I'm sure that most clearances weren't handled so clumsily and desensitive as that one. Tombe libre would presumably mark an excavated and emptied grave. Why mark it? I've never seen that.

(My interest being in the 138th Infantry for Haute Vienne/ Chateauponsac area, and local casuialties).

If we translate literally, we get ' tomb free'. Could this be simply an empty space, reserved for subsequent burial?

[SiegeGunner]

Your post is very reassuring, Gerd, and chimes with the experience of our pal Aurel Sercu in Boezinghe. The impression I got from the article about the trees at St Juliaan was that the locals appreciated the original concept of the CWGC cemeteries, namely that they should be reminiscent of an English garden, and were therefore shocked by the brutality of the decision to fell and root out the 'offending' trees. The article was full of terms in Dutch and English that dispelled any doubt that it was a cemetery composed of graves containing the remains of fallen soldiers. I have no doubt that Chris Lock is sincere in telling us about some local people who believe that the dead were repatriated or that some or all of the cemeteries are simply memorial parks, but I prefer to believe, as you evidently do, that most of your countrymen, young and old alike, are aware that the CWGC cemeteries in Belgium, pretty and park-like as they may be, are the resting place of the remains of the Commonwealth dead of the Great War.

[SteveMarsdin]

If we translate literally, we get ' tomb free'. Could this be simply an empty space, reserved for subsequent burial?

As far as I'm aware Tom, the cemetery consolidations are at an end, the repatriations are at an end and unlike in Flanders and other areas, bodies don't continue to be discovered. I understand that they are where a body in a "post-consolidation" cemetery has been repatriated but I suppose there is a possibility, as you say,at the time of original construction they could have left some tombs empty and marked them the same ?

[ph0ebus]

As far as I'm aware Tom, the cemetery consolidations are at an end, the repatriations are at an end and unlike in Flanders and other areas, bodies don't continue to be discovered. I understand that they are where a body in a "post-consolidation" cemetery has been repatriated but I suppose there is a possibility, as you say,at the time of original construction they could have left some tombs empty and marked them the same ?

A slight tangent perhaps but somewhat relevant to this line of discussion: I am researching a chap who was killed in 1918 but whose body was shipped stateside in 1921. Is there any way to find out where he was buried before his body was exhumed and returned home, or is that sort of information lost in the mists of time?

-Daniel

[truthergw]

A slight tangent perhaps but somewhat relevant to this line of discussion: I am researching a chap who was killed in 1918 but whose body was shipped stateside in 1921. Is there any way to find out where he was buried before his body was exhumed and returned home, or is that sort of information lost in the mists of time?

-Daniel

I think Terry Reeves is your man for that, Daniel. He will at least give an authoritative pointer.

[geraint]

Was it US policy to ship home casualties? I thought that they also assumed the buried on the field of conflict policy.

[John_Hartley]

There is alwaya a small group of people ready to believe any urban myth. That's how they become urban myths.

[centurion]

The following was copied at TNA last week.

This is not a black & white subject.

Tom

Plenty of cases where a grave (not a war grave) has subsequently been opened and no body found (see the recent case of the opening of Cardinal Newman's grave) because all remains have decayed completely. Because no body can be found today doesn't mean there never was one.

[ph0ebus]

Was it US policy to ship home casualties? I thought that they also assumed the buried on the field of conflict policy.

No one was more surprised than I was to find that he was not buried in France. Many of his pals are still there, but somehow he ended up back home. I literally know nothing about this aspect of the war, so I will PM Terry as suggested. Thanks for the suggestion!

Daniel

[ph0ebus]

Plenty of cases where a grave (not a war grave) has subsequently been opened and no body found (see the recent case of the opening of Cardinal Newman's grave) because all remains have decayed completely. Because no body can be found today doesn't mean there never was one.

Quite true. An experienced archaeologist though, in most cases, should be able to tell if there had been a burial there at some point or not.

-Daniel

[ph0ebus]

I think Terry Reeves is your man for that, Daniel. He will at least give an authoritative pointer.

His mailbox is full! Anyone know another way to get his attention?

-Daniel

[Muerrisch]

start a thread

"Terry Reeves

Your pants are on fire".

That should do the trick if nothing else works

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Plenty of cases where a grave (not a war grave) has subsequently been opened and no body found (see the recent case of the opening of Cardinal Newman's grave) because all remains have decayed completely. Because no body can be found today doesn't mean there never was one.

The war diary extract which was copied into post # 46 was recording an attempted exhumation in 1918 of burials recorded to have been made, and marked with crosses, in 1917. Are you claiming that bodies (22 in the case quoted) buried in 1917 would have decomposed to the point of there there was absolutely no trace of them a year later ?

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

His mailbox is full! Anyone know another way to get his attention?

-Daniel

Daniel - for a US soldier would you not be better contacting the ABMC ?

Tom

[gerd.deboeck]

As you know I also have lived and worked here for a fair few years now also. The school is a Belgian school and is situated near to the Novotel the name I will not reveal for obvious reasons. The age group I have been invited to talk to for at least three years now are all Belgian. Their age group is around 12-15 I believe. The teachers have informed me that WW1 is not taught in any detail however WW2 is.

We did learn about WW1 at school, the Von Schlieffen plan was even an exam question (and I wasn't a history student) in my last year high school. So normally all Belgium students cover WW1 at the age of 18. What they remember at the age of 18,5 is another discussion, but this not only so about Belgium students or WW1. None of my friends and family are especially interested in WW1, so I think you would regard them as"normal", but none of them would reply in the way you suggest.

[Neil Mackenzie]

I visited the Flanders Field American cemetery in Waregem the other day. The curator there (Chris) told us that families had the choice as to whether or not their loved ones were taken back to the USA. It was not uncommon for them to change their minds on the matter - and they could do so up to a certain time.

Annoyingly I cannot remember if about 1/3 opted for a return to the USA or 1/3rd opted for the body to stay in France/Belgium. Whatever it was apparently about the same percentages applied after WW2.

[ph0ebus]

Daniel - for a US soldier would you not be better contacting the ABMC ?

Tom

I think that is a fine idea. There's no trace of him via their website but perhaps they have other materials on him...only one way to find out.

Thanks,

-Daniel

[Guest]

And where is his blessed translation?

Hi egbert, this is google's translation. I can delete this if anyone reckons it's not accurate, or useful.

Hello,

I am reading and studying many issues and several reports from the archives of the House of Deputies.

Here is summary, a report dated May 13, 1926 on the discovery of bones in the military cemetery abandoned Mareuil-le-Port in the Marne.

This cemetery was established during the war, and it contained the bodies were consolidated in March 1922 in the cemetery of the Priory of Binson PIERRET by the company.

The land was returned to the owner, but in foundations made for the construction of a house it was found the bones.

They are carefully collected in bags of new canvases on which are borne the names of the military and placed in a room adjoining the cemetery.

It appears from this document that the corporate responsibility work group seems seriously engaged.

The press will take over the scandal, here are some excerpts published in a local newspaper:

"Much has been said of the scandals of the exhumations. The delicate operation of transfer of the bodies, difficult to organize, could probably be done without a few incidents, but there has been too often true monstrosities. Individuals who are responsible for this sacred mission (though he needed any) behaved too often despicable profiteers. They sabotaged the macabre work and have tampered with (oh shame) with the glorious bodies of our brothers in arms as with an ordinary commodity!

In the presence of a scandal of this nature that we are in Mareuil, where we again search the whole site of the old cemetery.

... What do we find in this cemetery graves which included 303 French and 432 German graves?

First of all nearly all the coffins had been burned were left in the ground, then one finds in a few scattered bones, the other a skull in it an identification tag, in that one a whole body.

Forty-three contained the bones of equipment or debris; two bodies were complete, a third was without a head, two tombs contained an identification tag while the bodies were reported as unknown!

To be continued .....

Cdl,

Frederic

Hello Frederick,

Hello the world

We can not go back but here's my feeling.

First we can appreciate the fact that the House is seized of the matter.

Then I would like to share personal observations.

After the affairs of the Chemin des Dames in April 17 I found in the study of a JMO greater rigor in the conduct of this study and lists of wounded, dead, missing the fact that many wounded were saved (formerly, the wounded were often convicted).

I also found that that moment was more dead buried.

And precisely at 18, fighting in Mareuil-le-Port Chaumusy, very violent, however, were short so that normally the dead have been identified.

And rightly so for the 97th RI, very few graves "Binson Priory." I was astonished and you make an explanation that is painful but which reveals a number of problems.

Here is the cemetery with full priory recontruit after the war.

Sincerely,

Jean-Claude

Bonsoir Jean-Claude,

thank you for your remarks and for this view of the cemetery of the Priory of Binson I did not know.

Here is the rest of the article that I have a slightly reduced:

Excavations are continuing and they lay bare other coffins containing bones and other probably does one find other body. There is no reason for it any other way to the graves of the dead German.

What are the perpetrators of this vile sabotage? They are many. We can already blame the delegate of the families who attend the exhumation was to have followed the work with indifference. The registrar would have to monitor carefully in serious breach of his duty. It must be sought and pursued. It seems, moreover, it is no longer attached to the Ministry of Pensions and he currently resides in a department overseas Méditéranée.

Finally, if one seeks what is the contractor responsible for exhumation in this area, we find the same dealer corpses brought to correctional Henry Bellamy and John Perrignault (two members), guilty, according to him, for having treated with a severity which seems to justify the discovery of Mareuil. Certainly, the merchants of death have any sense of shame!

Still can not tolerate such acts. It is horrible to think that people have dared to vandalize a cemetery and scattered the bodies of our unfortunate comrades to collect an unscrupulous contractor 87 fr. 50 a wooden cross removed.

To be continued ...

Sincerely,

Frederic

Read the "Wake the Dead" by Dorgeles, a true bible on the subject and for me the best book on the aftermath of the war.

Cordially

Jean Luc

Hi all,

About the Port Mareuil, there is the SHD doc as document 10N194

"Report of the Sub-Intendant Military Chief, Mr Graves to the Minister of Pensions on the discovery of bones in the cemetery dating disused Mareuil doc 13/05/1926, same doc 5.21 + press articles.

Cordially

Yann

Good evening everyone,

I, on this wonderful forum of ours, but on another thread, a little ... gorged with a friend and fellow forumers ... ... about a military cemetery Chatelet town of Hainaut Belgium near Charleroi, instead of fierce fighting between the French and Germans during the Battle of the Borders (August 1914) in Belgium ...

Our dispute involved, including the location of the cemetery that our forumers Ami, a historian in his professional presentation was at a place ... and my own memories of the region were at another location ... in short, memories, memories .... and these places have changed ... but also the exact date of the transfer of the bodies of the cemetery that day he stood before me ...

However, on reflection, I remember very well what I saw ... and could not have seen the date that advance ...: Adult gloved opening the ground, collecting bones in jute bags securely sealed

with corresponding numbers to ... what ...? there was no / more cross ... and charging those bags covered trucks leaving, from what I then understood to Germany ... and I suppose it was because of German soldiers, saw, too, that this cemetery full of weeds, was then called "Cemetery of the Germans." I am also sure that my date forumers our friend of hers ....

It is possible that this cemetery was officially (?) Moved / abandoned on a date (that of our friend)

... And what I was one of the witnesses was what would now be called, in another area (the environment or your "forestry work") the "sanitation ... final. .. the site "... (I hate that term

of "clean" on it) and I even think that we had to build from, after subdivision, but I'm not sure he'd have to ask the forumers Châteletain friend ... This "last convoy transfer "'was done with respect.

Anyway, subdivide and build on an old cemetery gives me the shivers ... but it is true that, in Belgium, it was, at all times, beaten everywhere and can not can not, as at Waterloo, while keeping as much as possible as it ... indefinitely, as it tries to do (and has so far managed to Waterloo ... except that it grows anyway) .. . This does it is quite true that we must treat human remains with respect and dignity and point, as I have seen elsewhere, other former battlefields as Châtelet, crush and dispose of them, which is far from the bombing of the war itself or the firing exercise on the coordinates / objectives classical ideals ... "... for the better cleared of their occupants. .. "

Should therefore in fact, as in other fields, drawing the attention of authorities on this issue. I think dealing with contempt of human remains is part of the contempt that we address in living things ... and no good: it is the same dehumanization that leads to war ... ...

Cordially

Hello,

Continuation and end of the article:

The Ministry of Pensions, this sad affair caused great excitement. An important official was transported to the Port Mareuil. An investigation is seriously pushing ...

We must find those responsible and punish them, punish them severely!

Was sentenced to death for the innocent impulsive movement, executed under the influence of self-preservation. It would be inexcusable to leave unpunished those who knowingly or negligently committed acts such as those we have just mentioned and which are real crimes to the memory of those we mourn.

Sincerely,

Frederic

Good end of weekend to all,

And TAC, Dear Frederick: that's well said!

Is applied, is applied!

Cordially

Hello Frederick,

To save time, you have a mass of documents I consulted SHD on contracts exhumation, various scandals, plan steles.

If you want ratings, do not hesitate to contact me.

Yann

Hi Yann,

that's right, I also contracts ... coffins.

These ratings interest me, I soon returned to SHD.

FRED

Hi Frederick,

I have the docs in photocopies.

THOMAS

Contact me on my MP.

Hello

My name is Pierre Lemaitre, novelist and I am looking for information about the scandal of the exhumation of soldiers at the end of World War I (auctions, coffins in poor condition, poor job, we talk of skeletons to get cut in beer ... and too narrow and the scandal that followed)

He seems to read your messages on the Forum from 14 to 18 you may be able to tell me where I can find documentation on this topic ... fairly secret

Yours with thanks

Pierre Lemaitre

This topic has been moved from the category Pages lived: stories and testimonials to the memory category Pages: Necropolis - MPLF-MDH by Alain Chaupin

Good evening

Novelist on such a subject, I admit it's a novel idea.

Allow me to imagine a scenario:

A pathological liar, who believes he invested with a divine mission, spends his free time digging up the garbage mess to get a little corn with bits of rusty scrap he sold to suckers on the run he draws his trap in every way possible.

It is a day during his illegal excavations near the regimental ambulances which he plans, after a few medicine bottles, bones forgotten cemetery not far from a preliminary adjacent and dreams of writing a book after downloading software spelling correction on the internet.

He found the net a genealogist who has an ancestor whose body was never found and he happens to believe, through a button on top, it is the one he seeks. They decided to write all the dramatic story to make it a bestseller for the centenary.

The two end up believing in the reality of their fantasy.

Later in the novel that we long to be discovered.

Cordially

JLK

Mike

[Guest]

Evening Post, Volume CVIII, Issue 146, 17 December 1929, Page 9

War Graves Scandal

WAR GRAVE SCANDAL

BODIES FROM BATTLEFIELDS

SHOCKING ALLEGATIONS

LONDON", 16th December.

The "Daily Mail's" correspondent at Paris says that the French Government recently contracted with a-Paris firm for exhumation from the battlefields and reinterment in Lorette Cemetery of the remains of ninety thousand Allied soldiers, and fixed the payment at nine shillings per body.

In consequence of certain accusations a commission was appointed and examined the tombs in which tho exhumed bodies were stated to have been reinterred, and it is understood that they found in some only old boots containing skeleton feet, which were recognised as those of British soldiers' remains. In others were broken bones showing spade marks. It is alleged that the remains were divided in order to add to the apparent number of exhumations, and thereby increase the payment.

Mike