War cemeteries a sham?

[truthergw]

I'm sorry but that doesnt make sense. You acknowledge the existence of empty graves with crosses which said that an identified soldier is buried in that grave when clearly he isnt, and then claim that "… A named stone will mark the resting place of a particular soldier. His remains will normally be under the stone, will certainly be in the cemetery and are very likely be close to the stone." Both circumstances cannot be correct at the same time.

How many times did this occurrence described at Hooge (the planting of named crosses over empty graves) occur elsewhere ? What about the note in the document quoted in post # 106 that "The result of the work of the 126th Labour Company has been to establish the identity of 3 of the 80 unknown and to disprove the identity of 5 of the 55 known. ... There was undoubted carelessness in the 5 instances in which exhumation showed that the body recorded as the body of one soldier was that of another."

Five misidentifications out of fifty-five is an 11% error rate, and failing the exhumations that would have meant five men being buried under headstones which named a different man, and five men being named on a memorial to the missing when in fact they were buried at Hooge.

Remember that these errors in part of Hooge Crater Cemetery only came to light because that part of Hooge Crater was exhumed. If it hadnt been exhumed then the errors would never have been exposed. There can hardly be any doubt at all that these "errors" were repeated in a vast number of IWGC cemeteries, especially the small battle area and large concentration cemeteries. The very nature of the work being carried out and the circumstances under which it was carried out make that an inevitability.

Tom

Nb - Roy (post 106) is the fellow WFA member I referred to in post # 63. (Thanks for releasing that particular bit of info somewhat earlier than planned Roy, and per your pm I hope you have now resolved the digestive biscuit and other stuff on the keyboard problem !).

As I understand the post, some stones were erected and graves dug for unidentified remains but were not required because the original graves were found to be empty of remains. Some of the original graves contained sandbags. The named stones refer to remains which I say are in a grave beneath or very close to the headstone. I have no idea of what the number of errors would be. I would hesitate to extrapolate from part of one cemetery to every cemetery. I suspect that distribution of remains in some specific cemeteries like trench burials for instance, will be different. I suspect that there, there will be a stone for every man known to be in there but the circumstances do not allow the stone to be aligned with the remains. Depending on soil type and condition of the remains when interred or re-interred, as years pass by, we can expect to find ever more empty graves if an exhumation is carried out. My position remains that the cemeteries are not empty, never were and I would require very strong evidence of an empty grave with a headstone.

[chrislock]

This is also really bugging me now Aurel as surely a class of young people is a class of young people wherever you go in in and around Ypres?? As for the older generations I will have to get deeper than what my neighbours and the old folk in the retirement home tell me. I will visit Frans and Mel tomorrow and have a chat with them and Corrie too. He has recently finished school so he should be able to confirm the amount of CWGC and WW1 input at school. Frans is more than happy to speak his mind and I know I will receive honest information from all of them.

*Thats if I can get a word in!!

What we need here is for any Belgian pals who have school children or Grand parents living with them to ask them to reveal the level of WW1 and CWGC input they received??

If the CWGC input was nil or little, then hardly surprising 'make your own mind up' springs to mind or whatever is passed on from generation to generation: right or wrong!

[Aurel Sercu]

Chris,

I read that I am bugging you.

Well, the explanation may be very simple : I stopped teaching in June 2000. Almost half a generation ago. The times (and young people) apparently have changed.

And let it be clear, I am not discussing WW1 input or CWGC input in education. Only your perception (expressed repeatedly) that many / most locals here in the area assume that CWGC cemeteries are largely empty, only memorials. For that is what you learned from speaking and listening to them.

Can we please agree that we disagree, or that our experience is different ?

My experience is as valid as yours.

And it is pointless to continue. Experience is experience.

It's a simple matter : if you are not willing to agree that we have a right to disagree, then that will sure be bugging me.

As far as I am concerned : end of discussion. You have made your point, I have made mine.

Aurel

[chrislock]

You have lost me there Aurel!

When I say bugging me, I mean as being confused, not you literally bugging me. Of course you are entitled to your own views just as I am entitled to mine.

I have simply revealed my own findings when especially speaking with many youngsters and old folk who will include many.

Their levels of awareness and understanding of the actual whearbouts of British Great War fallen is not as clear as lets say, when speaking with British children and British pensioners. I honestly have been informed that each class I have visited, there will have been a substantial amount of young students who are under the impression that the cemeteries contain memorial stones to dead soldiers. If this being the case and they are memorial stones only I then asked the following question: Then where are these men today? In their church yards with their mothers and fathers etc is often the response.

This happened as you yourself confirmed with approx half of the Belgian fallen and probably with the vast majority of French and US so why should the British fallen not have been taken home also? Perception is one thing, reality is another.

You only have to see how many British school coaches tour the battlefields compared to Belgian? If I believe those who I have spoken to, confirm it is possibly very much due to limited WW1 and CWGC input, what chance do youngsters have from any nationality but then, I bet British youngsters do not get input on the VDK or the French system at school so if this being the case and WW1/CWGC input is omitted, then hardly surprising we are having ths conversation. If this being the standard seal of education today and not pre 2000 then here could be the reason on why I have experienced the lack of cemetery awareness with local Belgian children during my school invitations and guiding days. As per the old folk I am lost on that one but I can only reveal my findings just as you reveal yours. I'm not sure why you have reacted so strongly as my observations are simply that and were definately not to insult or be-little. I have always found you an honourable man but perhaps I have touched on something which you have a problem with. I will speak with Frans and Corrie tomorrow about this situation and only then perhaps will I know more.

Perhaps you are right though, maybe this thread has ran it's course but I for one have found it very enlightening and difficult at times but is has been educational. Much food for thought has been delivered and received.

I am always keen to learn more and hope I always do.

Thank you for your input Aurel, it is very much appreciated as always.

Best wishes

Chris

[keithfazzani]

I do wish that when people use the term "many" they would clarify what they mean.

[Aurel Sercu]

Chris,

Just to say that I have read your posting.

Best wishes,

Aurel

[egbert]

I do wish that when people use the term "many" they would clarify what they mean.

Its nice that you are including yourself as well (see your posts #8+19 here)

[Chris_Baker]

Must admin, I am finding this topic rather barren.

Does anyone believe that there are no human remains buried in the CWGC cemeteries?

Does anyone believe that every single grave marker carries the correct details of the man it represents, and that it is precisely positioned above his remains?

[Ralphed]

Could it be that locals are so used to having so many cemeteries/memorials in their own back yard that they have lost some sense of what they represent ? London is full of things to do and see but not many Londoners visit the Tower, Madame Tussaurds, London eye, Trafalgar square etc, etc. They are just there, part of their everyday life.

[Muerrisch]

I do wish that when people use the term "many" they would clarify what they mean.

It's not a term, its a word ..... an adjective, even!

I like Mr Baker's Freudian "admin"!!!!!!!!!

[Chris_Baker]

Good spot, Mr Grumpy!

[geraint]

Just making a tentative suggestion regarding French views on this subject (as none seems forthcoming). The concept of a military cemetery being though of as a memorial park rather than a cemetery would be within French custom and thinking. Military cemeteries on or near battlefields in France tend to be ossuaries - ie boneyards where skulls and longbones are gathered from cemeteries and laid openly to rest in ossuaries leaving the original cemetery or mass graves empty. This is a Catholic practice, and may not be as strong in Belgium which has a greater non Catholic attitude towards Christianity.

[truthergw]

Just making a tentative suggestion regarding French views on this subject (as none seems forthcoming). The concept of a military cemetery being though of as a memorial park rather than a cemetery would be within French custom and thinking. Military cemeteries on or near battlefields in France tend to be ossuaries - ie boneyards where skulls and longbones are gathered from cemeteries and laid openly to rest in ossuaries leaving the original cemetery or mass graves empty. This is a Catholic practice, and may not be as strong in Belgium which has a greater non Catholic attitude towards Christianity.

Just to make sure I understand you, Geraint. You are suggesting that at Notre Dame de Lorette for example, the graves are empty and the remains are all in the ossuary? I hadn't heard that before.

[SiegeGunner]

ND de Lorette has individual graves, collective graves and the Ossuary.

[geraint]

No Tom. I'm suggesting that the practice of ossuaries might be an attitude amongst the French as to why some cemeteries may be considered to be memorial parks as opposed to a military cemetery. We know that small British mass burials were often redug and re-buried in larger cemeteries. The same happened amongst the French, with the larger bones taken to ossuaries especially at the larger killing grounds of Verdun, Soisson and StQuentin. The French also returned many of their bodies back to the neighbourhood or communal cemetery. I think that this happened directly on recovery of the fallen body, and that the corpse was not first buried in a temporary grave. Their location in communuity cemeteries indicate piecemeal arrival as opposed to mass reburial in a small timeslot during the early 20s.

[squirrel]

Must admin, I am finding this topic rather barren.

Does anyone believe that there are no human remains buried in the CWGC cemeteries?

Does anyone believe that every single grave marker carries the correct details of the man it represents, and that it is precisely positioned above his remains?

I was talking to a lady in the village the other day who had done one of the "Let's stop at Tyne Cot" five minute visits on the way back from Bruges. What she was told and by whom I have no idea but she is entirely convinced that there are no bodies in any of the CWGC cemeteries. Apparently, all those who died and those wounded who died, were just left in the feet of mud which was present all year round.

[Dragon]

Just making a tentative suggestion regarding French views on this subject (as none seems forthcoming). The concept of a military cemetery being though of as a memorial park rather than a cemetery would be within French custom and thinking. Military cemeteries on or near battlefields in France tend to be ossuaries - ie boneyards where skulls and longbones are gathered from cemeteries and laid openly to rest in ossuaries leaving the original cemetery or mass graves empty.

Is that so? I didn't know.

Most of my WW1 travels in recent times have been in Alsace and the Vosges. I have early pictures of the burial grounds which became cemeteries and to my eyes the graves look individual: initially they are clearly mounds with impromptu grave markers such as crosses. Then the same places seem to be tidied up and manicured. I have photos of both French and German cemeteries which are still in the original location today; the landcape features show this. (Some German cemeteries have been cleared and concentrated.)

Taking the famous battlefield of le Linge, the cemetery is still at Wettstein, as shown in photos of the actual war then 1920s and 1930s, now with an ossuary as well as rows of crosses. I don't know when the ossuary was constructed. Families are allowed to place individual plaques on the walls near the huge cross of Peace. Whenever I've been there, it's been treated quietly and with reverence. The memorial park is the Musée Mémorial du Linge, which is the preserved remains of the actual battlefield.

At Hartmannswillerkopf / Vieil Armand (1915), the cemetery (Silberloch) contains six ossuaries and about 1200 identified men's graves. The Crypt contains about 12000 men's remains. The whole battlefield and the fortifications are a monument which the public can explore.

I can provide photos which trace the appearance of the cemeteries so people can judge for themselves.

Gwyn

[truthergw]

No Tom. I'm suggesting that the practice of ossuaries might be an attitude amongst the French as to why some cemeteries may be considered to be memorial parks as opposed to a military cemetery. We know that small British mass burials were often redug and re-buried in larger cemeteries. The same happened amongst the French, with the larger bones taken to ossuaries especially at the larger killing grounds of Verdun, Soisson and StQuentin. The French also returned many of their bodies back to the neighbourhood or communal cemetery. I think that this happened directly on recovery of the fallen body, and that the corpse was not first buried in a temporary grave. Their location in communuity cemeteries indicate piecemeal arrival as opposed to mass reburial in a small timeslot during the early 20s.

Did the French erect individual headstones to the men whose remains were put in the ossuaries? In the case of Thiepval, is there a suggestion that the French crosses are simply markers for men buried elsewhere?

[geraint]

The ossuary bones would tend to be the bones of non-identified carnage battlefields. My understanding is that the French would have shipped the identified bodies home; or secondly buried them under a marked cross on the battle site cemetery. Why some identified bodies went home whilst other identified bodies were buried near where they fell, is beyond me. I do know that my local commun in the Limousin (hundreds of miles from any fighting) considered providing a small ossuary for the war dead, but local families preferred their own family graves and the idea was dropped. I've no idea as to Thiepval.

[SteveMarsdin]

Why some identified bodies went home whilst other identified bodies were buried near where they fell, is beyond me..

Hi Geraint,

Where an individual body (or grave) was identified, as far as I'm aware it was a choice of the families, they could ask for the bodies repatriated otherwise they were left in the military cemeteries. This process went on for decades. It is one of the reasons why the consolidation of their cemeteries, home and abroad, went on into the Seventies.

It is not uncommon in southern Belgium to find crosses marked "Tombe Vide" in some of the surviving cemeteries, to preserve the symmetry of the cemetery layout. Why bother marking some "Tombe Vide" if it was common practice to mark empty graves with a name ?

[geraint]

Thanks Steve - I thought it probably to be a family choice. The French government paid for the corpse transfer and re-internment, therefore it wasn't a matter of finance for the families.

'Tombe vide' - 'empty tomb'. Couldn't have read 'vider' - 'cleared tomb' could it?

[SteveMarsdin]

'Tombe vide' - 'empty tomb'. Couldn't have read 'vider' - 'cleared tomb' could it?

Hi Geraint,

I'll try and find a photo.

Here's a separate topic on the francophone forum "pages14-18" which highlights a case where there was malpractice regarding reburials:

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/forum2.php?config=pages1418.inc&cat=16&subcat=28&post=3578&page=1&p=1&sondage=0&owntopic=0&trash=0&trash_post=0&print=0&numreponse=0&quote_only=0&new=1&nojs=0

[geraint]

Ohh I do wish my French was better!

[SteveMarsdin]

Hi Geraint,

I can't find a photo that contains a "TOMBE VIDE" (there are several at Rossignol - plateau for example) but I can of "TOMBE LIBRE". This photo of Bertrix - Luchy includes one at bottom right of photo:

[geraint]

Brother Skipman sent a translation! Bless him . As you say Steve - that one is an exception. I'm sure that most clearances weren't handled so clumsily and desensitive as that one. Tombe libre would presumably mark an excavated and emptied grave. Why mark it? I've never seen that.

(My interest being in the 138th Infantry for Haute Vienne/ Chateauponsac area, and local casuialties).