War cemeteries a sham?

[daggers]

In the book review section of this forum there are some comments on "Into the Silence" by Wade Davis. I have commented there about the author's implication that the CWGC's cemeteries are an illusion, with the "graves, for the most part, contain nothing..."

I do not know how to insert a link to the other thread. Perhaps a Mod can do it?

I thought this worthy of comment, never having heard such a suggestion before and would be interested to read views of others

Daggers

[corisande]

I think that this is the thread you are referring to on the Book Review - click

[roel22]

I remember talking to a farmer near Wijtschaete many years ago, not long after he had discovered remains of a British soldier on his land. He was sure no bodies were buried beneath all the gravestones, because after the war "there simply was not enough time to bury all the fallen soldiers".

Roel

[auchonvillerssomme]

I have heard somebody who should know better stating this as a fact, interestingly though it was reinforced by someone who referred to the very large size of the hole dug to get to the remains of the New Zealand unknown warrior and that the remains weren't under the stone.

[truthergw]

Many large labour squads, some Chinese, worked for years, during and after the war, to find and re-inter bodies of the fallen, as well as building the cemeteries. I do not understand the farmer who spoke to Roel. I am not the only one on the forum to point out that the headstones may not correspond to a specific body or even a specific grave. They are erected in the close vicinity of where that person or persons were buried. Before reporting these rather strange remarks, perhaps we should ask ourselves, if the cemeteries are empty, where are the bodies?

[Guest]

The care of the dead

" In all wars it has been one of the fears

haunting a soldier's friends that his body

may be utterly lost. Even in this war there

have been such irretrievable losses. But in

no great war has so much been done as in

this, to prevent the addition of that special

torment to the pains of anxiety and of

bereavement. "

Mike

[auchonvillerssomme]

Many large labour squads, some Chinese, worked for years, during and after the war, to find and re-inter bodies of the fallen, as well as building the cemeteries. I do not understand the farmer who spoke to Roel. I am not the only one on the forum to point out that the headstones may not correspond to a specific body or even a specific grave. They are erected in the close vicinity of where that person or persons were buried. Before reporting these rather strange remarks, perhaps we should ask ourselves, if the cemeteries are empty, where are the bodies?

I totally agree, I have no doubt the bodies are there.

[keithfazzani]

I do not believe the cemeteries are empty and certainly not a sham, however like Tom I on occasion have my doubts about the precision and uniformity that we observe in many cemeteries. I am confident that the bodies referred to are in the vicinity of the headstone on which they are mentioned. I imagine that bodies were often buried in a trench and that ensuring that each body was in the precise position relative to the headstone would be very difficult if not impossible. To claim the cemeteries are empty would imply dishonesty on a massive scale, and would imply a cover up orchestrated by the many hundreds if not thousands of people involved in the creation of the cemeteries.

[jainvince]

I recall walking through Tyne Cot and another visitor expressed the view that the headstones were only memorials. However, it is interesting to go to certain cemeteries where they have irregular graves following the battlefield burials plus later concentration burials. Around the side you will often see markers indicating 'Known to be buried in this cemetery'. Certain cemeteries, such as Maple Copse, are I believe almost 100% markers of bodies known to be buried in the cemetery but where the remains were disturbed by subsequent shelling.

Bernard

[bmac]

Cemeteries are many and various in type. I would venture that the further from the front the more accurately they represent a churchyard, i.e. where there is a gravestone there is the correct body. Further forward you get the cemeteries attached to medical facilities, e.g. ADS, MDS, CCS. where results may be mixed, i.e. 'wastage' casualties are marked where they are buried, those caused by a major action are indicators of the existence of a body somewhere in a mass grave located approximately where the burial markers are. Battlefield cemeteries, as mentioned, contain the 'Known to be' and 'Believed to be' markers at the edges and contain higher numbers of unmarked graves and, I suppose, the rest or many of them may be indicators/markers rather than precise burials, however, the bodies are in the cemetery. Concentration cemeteries are a bit of both but where names are mentioned I would expect there to be a body there or very nearby. The Labour Companies after the war made very detailed records of bodies recovered and re-buried (I have seen some at the CWGC relating to Gommecourt Wood New Cemetery, a concentration cemetery) and there would seem to be precious little point in painstakingly moving all of these bodies, taking map references of the original location, identifying the remains in any way possible only for them either to dumped anywhere in the cemetery or not to be there at all.

[daggers]

Thanks very much for the varied comments so far. It will be interesting to see if CWGC have any comment to offer.

D

[chrislock]

Living and working with the Flemish as I do, you would be surprised how often I hear ordinary people state they believe that very few bodies are actually buried within CWGC cemeteries. They believe they are simply memorial stones to men who were killed and whose bodies simply dissapeared or were taken away to wherever.

They also inform me that at school they were taught this. This following reasons are fascinating however: Others believe their countrymen who were involved with searching for the dead for payment as many were, created extra or more bodies with multiple separate remains being bagged to form a soldier. The soldiers nationality was even manufactured by the introduction of uniform, equipment etc and placed with the soldiers remains depending on bounty amount offered.

Amazing stuff indeed but when you consider that my neighbors children are not taught about the Great War and neither were their parents and with them living within the Salient, you may question this but when you consider the hardships and lack of money during the post war period, then I would have to say the liklyhood of financial gain by falsehood, such as creating bodies for payment is very plausible. If you then offer no education on the Great War to the young then it's hardly surprising that even my own neighbors continually ask me if the cemeteries do really contain real bodies or worse....

I really do hear all of the above from time to time and it is not a rarity either!

Just my observations from living and working alongside the normal Flemish population.

Chris

[truthergw]

Dividing remains in half to double the fee is a far cry from the cemeteries are empty because there was not enough time to fill them. Were people paid a finders fee in Belgium? How much was it? As far as hearing something said from time to time, I can recall when every man in the street knew for a fact that Churchill had big shares in the company that made the machine guns at the Dardanelles. One thing we learn on the forum is to treat anecdotes and common knowledge with care.

[egbert]

Living and working with the Flemish as I do, you would be surprised how often I hear ordinary people state they believe that very few bodies are actually buried within CWGC cemeteries. They believe they are simply memorial stones to men who were killed and whose bodies simply dissapeared or were taken away to wherever.

They also inform me that at school they were taught this. This following reasons are fascinating however: Others believe their countrymen who were involved with searching for the dead for payment as many were, created extra or more bodies with multiple separate remains being bagged to form a soldier. The soldiers nationality was even manufactured by the introduction of uniform, equipment etc and placed with the soldiers remains depending on bounty amount offered.

Amazing stuff indeed but when you consider that my neighbors children are not taught about the Great War and neither were their parents and with them living within the Salient, you may question this but when you consider the hardships and lack of money during the post war period, then I would have to say the liklyhood of financial gain by falsehood, such as creating bodies for payment is very plausible. If you then offer no education on the Great War to the young then it's hardly surprising that even my own neighbors continually ask me if the cemeteries do really contain real bodies or worse....

I really do hear all of the above from time to time and it is not a rarity either!

Just my observations from living and working alongside the normal Flemish population.

Chris

Chris thank you so very much to bring this topic back up.

I have heard the same story from a reputed Flemish Great War researcher (he is known to this forum) who told me stories he was told from his father from Gheluvelt area:

the British officials paid good bounties to the locals for the find of a British soldier of the GW. The local population and farmers then were indeed very poor and they collected British buttons, badges, dog tags, uniform equipment remnants. When they found German dead they mixed the remains with British artifacts in order to receive the prize for finding another British soldier of the GW. My guess is that many CWGC graves with "unknown soldiers" or where only the regimental membership is known - are - let me say- not necessary British soldiers. I say that many, many poppies on CWGC graves honor other than British dead.....and I hope nobody here has any objections to place a wreath or poppy on a CWGC grave that actually contains in fact German remains.

[chrislock]

Without doubt but I see no reason to disbelieve what some of my Flemish non Great War buffs & friends and their children inform me. In fact I would go onto further say that as they have no points to score ref forum issues or complicate for whatever reason then I am personlaly happy to believe what they tell me reference this subject.

Many do believe the cemeteries are only memorial parks and the bodies were taken elsewhere.

I remember the recent issuing of "No dogs" signage within the CWGC cemeteries. This came about due to many Belgians using the cemeteries as dog walks and for picnic parties etc.

Their response when challenged by the gardeners and staff was "Why? There are no soldiers buried here, they are just beautiful memorial parks and we like to use them as such"

I have on several occasions received this response so if we have a situation of local people who were born on the battlefields and have lived here ever since, they will react to what they have been told or how they have been educated and I believe them. They mean no deliberate disrespect but they do believe there are no bodies or very few in the cemeteries. If you wish for further proof of this, every year I am invited into the local school on their English day. I am given the opportunity to ask them questions on the Great War etc and they must respond in English as per their instructions.

Memorial parks and no bodies is just one of the common beliefs I hear.

Hardly surprising then that others posting have heard these comments also but getting back to the original question ref the cemeteries burials well of course we all know the listed fallen are buried within but as per how many and as per their nationality numbers along with where they actually rest etc, then I guess I am still happy to believe the official situation as portrayed by the necessary authorities but.........

[Michelle Young]

I visited a veteran who never visited his brothers grave because he was convinced that the stone was symbolic and his brothers body was not in the grave over which the stone had been erected.

Michelle

[George Armstrong Custer]

I remember the recent issuing of "No dogs" signage within the CWGC cemeteries. This came about due to many Belgians using the cemeteries as dog walks and for picnic parties etc.

Their response when challenged by the gardeners and staff was "Why? There are no soldiers buried here, they are just beautiful memorial parks and we like to use them as such"

You can see why this might be an attractive myth to some of those living in the communities located amid the Great War cemeteries. What would you rather have on your doorstep, a string of cemeteries which must be treated as such, or "beautiful memorial parks" which can be used to walk the dog, have picnic parties and other recreational activities? Tell yourself often enough that they're not really cemeteries and you're on your way to justifying viewing them as beautifully laid out recreational areas which simply memorialise those who fell. Tell the next generation it is so and they will grow up believing it implicitly and will be hard to convince otherwise. It's still just a myth, of course, but you can see how it might be a powerfully attractive one to some locals.

George

[auchonvillerssomme]

As someone mentioned earlier, where are the bodies then? There is also perhaps something else going on with the locals, especially the farmers, the cemeteries, especially the smaller ones make ploughing and harvesting difficult, I wonder how many discussions have ben had about the closure of cemeteries? it would make it an easier argument if it was rumoured there were no bodies.

[keithfazzani]

I repeat these various myths would indicate a cover up on a massive scale and a level of dishonesty which I would find hard to countenance. Additionally many of the original gardeners and caretakers were ex Tommies, I simply cannot believe they would be involved in a conspiracy which some of these tales imply.

[truthergw]

I think George has hit the nail on the head. It suits some people to believe that the cemeteries are simply parks, so they happily repeat the tale. Presumably it salves their conscience when their dog lifts its leg against a headstone. Egbert, you seem to know about the practice of paying for body parts. How much was paid? Who paid the money, the IWGC as it was then, or the MOD?

[auchonvillerssomme]

There is no mention of payment in this HANSARD

WAR GRAVES.HC Deb 09 November 1921 vol 148 cc399-401 399

§ Captain THORPE (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for War whether the military organisation which has been at work in France and Flanders since the Armistice, searching for bodies and concentrating scattered graves, has been withdrawn; and, if so, in view of the urgent necessity of allaying public anxiety, he will state whether he is satisfied that their work is completed?

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Sir Laming Worthington-Evans) Since the Armistice the whole battlefield area in France and Flanders has been systematically searched at least six times. Some areas in which the fighting had been particularly heavy were searched as many as 20 times. In the spring of 1920 400 the work was easy and rapid owing to the number of surface indications, but since then in approximately 90 per cent. of the bodies found there was no surface indication. These invisible graves were found by various local indications recognised by the experience of the exhumation parties. It is probable that a number of these invisible graves have not yet been found, and are likely to be brought to light during the work of reconstruction and in the opening up of areas at present inaccessible owing to the thickness of undergrowth, the marshiness of the land, etc., etc. The searching, however, was most thorough, as the whole of the battlefield area was divided up into map squares, to which a platoon under a subaltern was allotted. The actual search party usually consisted of about 12 men under a senior non-commissioned officer. These parties systematically searched the whole of the surface of the areas.

In view of the thoroughness of the search the Army Council has come to the conclusion that the time has now arrived when this work should cease, and consequently they have issued instructions for the withdrawal of the military exhumation parties which were employed by them. It is practically certain that in the course of reconstruction and drainage operations and of the clearing of débris, bodies hitherto unsuspected will be found, and that this will continue for years to come. The owners and inhabitants are now resuming possession of their houses, fields, and gardens, and reports of the discovery of bodies by such owners and occupiers, must be awaited before exhumation and re-interment in an approved cemetery-can be undertaken. Any bodies so discovered will, in accordance with agreements already arrived at with the French and Belgian civil authorities, be reported to local representatives of the Imperial War Graves Commission, by whom arrangements will be made for the re-interment of the bodies in the existing military cemeteries. In cases where relatives or friends can produce from their own knowledge evidence that the body of an officer or soldier may be found in a particular locality, special search will be made under the instructions of the Imperial War Graves Commission if the Commission is satisfied that a good primâ facie case has been made out. I hope this statement of the work done and the arrangements made for the future will allay any public anxiety in the matter.

[Ralphed]

Why go to all the bother and expence of doing individual head stone's, when mass graves and a list of names would suffice. How many individual WW1 headstones are there on the Western front ? That's one hell of a illusion to pull off by any organisation without it getting out

To my mind this ranks up there with Holocaust denying,Hitler is still being alive, along with 9/11- Titanic- JFK - Elvis - Add nauseum conspiracy theories.

[caulkheader]

I think some people must have seen Capricorn 1 and believed it was a documentary.

Of course the remains are there, maybe not 100% accurately placed/identified/positioned neatly by each stone. But as someone else has already touched on, they should also be seen as an individual memorial th the soldier there or thereabouts.

T

[egbert]

.... Egbert, you seem to know about the practice of paying for body parts. How much was paid? Who paid the money, the IWGC as it was then, or the MOD?

I will email the Flemish historian tonight and hope to either get an answer soon or maybe can convince him to respond directly here

[keithfazzani]

Perhaps you could ask for documented evidence rather than rumour.