War cemeteries a sham?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I was under the impression from previous posts money was paid to anyone who reported remains is there any evidence of this? And these were work parties, and is there any info on whether more was paid for complete or identified, nationalitly?

[Muerrisch]

Have a care, people. My laptop security warns me against opening the Flemish site linked a couple of pages back.

[bushfighter]

Please may I urge every Member who does not already possess a copy to buy The Unending Vigil. The History of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission by Philip Longworth.

Then please read it, especially the chapter titled The Strenuous Years.

Copies can be obtained from:

http://www.cwgc.org/content.asp?menuid=5&submenuid=22&id=22&menuname=Items for Sale&menu=sub

and you will be supporting the CWGC.

But you will also be able to look at things not in a 2012 frame of mind but from the perspectives of the men and women who had to make work the gigantic undertaking of commemorating the British war dead during the immediate post-Great War years.

Expediency had to play a part, and providing that it was responsible expediency then it should not be criticised - those men and women made things work and created what we take for granted today.

Speaking from a little experience of visiting battlefields and cemeteries in the deserts and jungles of the "Sideshows" I feel that it would have been impossible to guarantee that the correct remains lay under every headstone.

The men on the ground did what they thought was right and proper at that time, and they were correct to do so.

When one of my grandmother's brothers was killed in France he was carrying a photograph of her.

The photograph was returned to her with a bloodstain on it - his blood, it was said.

I personally think that the blood more likely came from a horse - but that did not matter as my grandmother wanted to believe what she had been told.

The men on the ground did the correct thing at the time.

We cannot make an imperfect world suddenly become perfect.

Harry

[chrislock]

Hello all.

Milena has located the St Julian action groups press release article regarding the

St Julian Dressing Station Cemetery situation. It also contains the CWGC response however, I am unable to upload the document and translation onto the thread.

If somebody more IT savvy than me could pm me their email address, I will forward the complete attachment to you for uploading onto the thread. It does explain much and offers much food for thought.

As a matter of interest, a member of the other Great War site has just posted on a same issue thread an incredible document revealing payment for bodies and more. It makes sober reading!

Best wishes

Chris

[g6yfb]

Skipman,

Wih regard to the letter posted, I visit (twice a year) a CWGC grave here in France from the second world war where there is in fact only the one war headstone at a church yard in a village called Missy. The grave site is placed within the Childrens section and is always immaculately maintained. The soldier was a member of my late fathers regiment and since I have lived in France I always visit to pay my respects.

It would appear that not all small churchyards are without war graves, unless of course the letter just refers to the first world war (it is dated 1922)

I have to say that the war cemeteries that I visit here around the Normandy beaches are all immaculatly maintained and can not speak highly enough of the CWGC who in my humble opinion do a fantastic job.

Keep on the good work.

[themonsstar]

DG R&E48

REPORT

Of a Committee of enquiry assembled at St Pol on Thursday January 13th 1921 by Major-General B F Burnett-Hitchcock CB DSO, Director General of Mobilization and Recruiting, for the purpose of investigating certain exhumations than recently made in Hooge Crater Cemetery.

President

Col W H V Farrell CMC DSO DD Mob and R

Members

Lt Col G J Hogben OBE,

Secretary to the High Commissioner for the Commonwealth of Australia

Lt Col J K Dick-Cunyngham CMG DSO

Director of GR and E

Maj C K Phillips OBE

Land and Legal Adviser to the Imperial War Graves Commission

In October 1920, as a result of the reported duplication of the grave* of a certain soldier, the grave reported to be in the cemetery known as Hooge Crater cemetery, on the Ypres-Menin Road, as opened and alleged to contain the remains of a soldier other than that described on the temporary wooden cross marking the grave. Other graves were opened and other discrepancies were reported between the identity established by an examination of the remains and the particulars of the identity described on the crosses. The contents of about 135 graves, 117 in plots numbered one and two, were examined by the officers of the 126th Labour Company who recorded the result of their examination in the report marked 'G' annexed to report. It is into those discrepancies that this Committee has been invited to enquire.

The Committee has heard the evidence of the following witnesses:

LT Col WM Sutton DSO MC AD to GR&E

Major HJM Williams DAD to GR&E

Major JF Gardiner DSD No 5 District

Capt D Coughlan OC 126 Labour Company

Lieut FR Cleeves 126 Labour Company

Lieut CW Henshaw 126 Labour Company

Mr GF Crawford late OC 68 Labour Company

Mr H Shaylor late Lieut of 68 Labour Company

*11303 Pte Williams, 25 Bn AIF recorded in Underhill Farm Cemetery Ploegstreet and Hooge Create Cemetery

(later identified as Private Hamilton 25 Bn AIF)

Between the day of the armistice and Christmas 1918 the 68th Labour Company, then quartered about Ypres, responded to an appeal from GHQ for volunteers in the urgent and necessary work of concentrating the bodies scattered over the battlefields into properly organised cemeteries. They commenced work in the second week in January 1919, being under the orders of the Labour Group HQ to which they belonged, and supervised by the Army Burial Officer. Some notes were issued by GHQ for their guidance; they were expressed to be no more than rough notes, and in fact were much less precise than the later instructions that the Directorate of GR&E found it necessary to issue. At the time the speedy clearing up of the battlefields was probably of higher importance, from sanitary and other considerations, than minute accuracy in establishing the identity of the bodies that were found. The lack of experience of the 68th Labour Company in this kind of work, the want of detailed instructions, difficulties in housing and administration, the quality of the personnel engaged, were further factors that contributed to a system under which mistakes were apt to occur.

In May 1919 the Directorate of GR&E assumed responsibility for all future work of concentration, and in July of that year adopted for general use the complete and able instructions "For the guidance of exhumation companies in the future" drawn by the officer then commanding 68th Labour Company, which are acknowledged to have led to an efficient service of identification and reburial.

Mr G F Crawford was in command of that Company from the commencement of its work until it was disbanded in the month of April 1920.

The first cemetery into which its concentrations were made was Hooge Crater, a small cemetery of a few score graves formed in 1917 and now expanded to one of about five thousand.

The concentration was done substantially in the numerical order of the plots as they are now numbered in the cemetery records.

The methods of search, identification and reburial followed since July 1919 by Capt Coghlan explained by him in detail should ensure not only the elimination of error but also the exhaustive examination of the remains for every clue to identity.

The evidence given by Mr Crawford and Mr Shaylor of the early methods they used corresponded mainly with that given by Capt Coghlan, but the Committee is of the opinion, from the replies of Mr Crawford and Mr Shaylor to questions put to them by the Committee, that their recollection referred in some particulars rather to the improved methods they evolved after a few months! experience than the methods actually used in the earliest part of their work. It is significant that Mr Crawford found it desirable to compile in July 1919 instructions "for the guidance of exhumation companies in the future." The 68th Labour Company was the pioneer company in work of this kind, and it was natural that in July 1919, when other companies were in the process of formation its experience should be of particular value to them. It seems to the Committee on the evidence that the value of Mr Crawford's instructions owed much to his realisation of past mistakes and omissions.

The result of each day's concentration into Hooge Crater Cemetery were embodied into a return by the 68th Labour Company to the Army Burial officer. This return consisted of a transcript, made at the time of each reburial by an officer of the company known as the Cemetery Officer present at the reburial, in duplicate in a Field Service note book, of such particulars as were written on a ticket attached to the bundle containing the remains. The particulars on the ticket has been written by the officer in charge of the company's search party by whom the remains had been found and forwarded to the cemetery, and consisted of information showing the map reference of the pace of finding, whether a cross was on the grave, regimental particulars, means of identification and whether any effects had been sent to the base. To be transcript in his Field Service note book it was the duty of the cemetery Officer to add the plot, row and grave number of the grave in which the remains had been laid in the cemetery. The return was known as the Burial Return "A" form.

One copy, in the shape of loose leaves detached from the book, was collected each evening from the Labour Company by the orders of the Army Burial Officer, the duplicate copy being retained in the book, which remained in the custody of the Labour Company. Copies of the return were typewritten by the orders of the Army Burial Officer and one of these copies was ultimately received by the Director-General GR&E at the War Office and became the basis of the official records of the cemetery.

It was the duty also of the cemetery Officer to fix a peg in the ground, at the time of reburial, at the surface of each grave, the peg bearing a ticket with particulars corresponding to those given in the return.

The responsibility of the 68th Labour Company for the correctness of the reburial ended with the fixing of the peg and the rendering of the return. It was no part of their duty to erect or see to the erection of a temporary wooded cross over the grave. That was done subsequently by a Unit of Graves Registration.

The Committee has been unable to obtain more than one of the original Field service note books used by the Cemetery Officer during the reburials in Hooge Crater Cemetery. That book contains the records of 426 reburials and was kept by Lieut Brittain, a Cemetery Officer of the 68th Labour Company. With the exception of two or three graves, the records refer to reburials in the plots other than those forming the subject of this enquiry. But on comparing those records with the official records for the same plots, the Committee feel justified in accepting as reliable copies of the lost original records to the official records of the plots the subject of this enquiry. Certified truce copies of the official records are marked "L" and annexed to this report.

In the presence of the officers who conducted the exhumations the Committee examined the report marked "G" with the official records, and were satisfied that the several graves identified in the report by a plot, row and grave number contained what they are stated in that report to have contained and were marked by a temporary wooden crosses bearing such particulars of identity as in that report they are stated to have been marked. But it is necessary to emphasise that the report "G" is no more than a comparison between the actual contents of the graves and the particulars afforded by the temporary wooden crosses, which were not erected by 68th Labour Company and in many instances do not correspond with the official records. The Committee do not attach importance to the incorrect placing of the crosses, since the final arrangement of the cemetery, when permanent headstones are erected, depend not on the position of the crosses but on the official records. The attention of the Committee was therefore directed to the comparison of the report marked "G" with the Burial Return "A" forms.

In must be remembered that the 126th Labour Company who conducted the exhumations in October 1920 had by that time reached a very high standard of efficiency in establishing identifications and that they were reviewing the work of another company with not unnatural eagerness to find fault, a tendency that is observable even when the contents of a grave were not inconsistent with the particulars in the Burial Return "A" form. Moreover, after a lapse of twenty months from the date of concentration and very nearly two years from the day that the last shot was fired, the further decomposition of the remains may not only have made a more careful examination less disagreeable but also revealed clues to the identity that were buried in the flesh by the wounds that caused death.

The report marked "G" is entitled "Return of Unknowns exhumed and re-buried in Hooge Crater Cemetery". Of the 135 re-burials dealt with in the report, the Burial Return "A" forms has recorded 80 as unknown and 55 as having a definite identity.

The result of the work of the 126th Labour Company has been to establish the identity of 3 of the 80 unknown and to disprove the identity of 5 of the 55 known.

The Committee is unable to say whether a percentage of 3.75 new total identifications of unknown exhumed is high or low compared with a test that might be made by reviewing other reburials admittedly conducted by an experienced company in more favourable circumstances. No evidence on this point was procurable. But the percentage is certainly too small to make it worth while to exhume further unknowns reburied by the 68th Labour Company. The percentage of error would be less as the company gained experience.

There was undoubted carelessness in the 5 instances in which exhumation showed that the body recorded as the body of one soldier was that of another.

Some new partial identifications were found but since they establish no new identity are of no great importance.

In some instances the grave of a Dominion soldier was marked with a cross bearing the inscription "unknown British soldier," whereas the Burial Return "A" form had omitted nationality and merely recorded the regimental particulars as "Unknown soldier.' Discrepancies of this kind were therefore due not to the 68th Labour Company but to the unit who erected the crosses.

But as already stated the records of the Cemetery do not depend on the particulars afforded by the wooden crosses, and in the final layout of the Cemetery the headstones would bear the particulars given in the official records, namely "an Unknown soldier.”

Some of the graves were found to be empty or containing only sandbags filled with earth. The presence of sandbags in the grave is not altogether remarkable in as much as the ground about the cemetery formed part of a trench system; Mr Crawford stated in his evidence that many sandbags were used to fill up earth. Graves containing sandbags may therefore be included amongst those found to be empty.

The fact that some of the graves (there were about 20) contained nothing is probably due to the removal by 68th Labour Company of the crosses found on the battlefield without extended search for the bodies that may or may not have been buried beneath them.

It must be remembered that the area had been under shell fire perhaps more consistently intense than in any other area of the war and that the crosses originally erected to mark the grave on the battlefield may have been blown from its place many times and each time replaced over a spot that was further and further away from the original grave.

But in any case it was a misleading act of the 68th Labour Company to have placed the cross in the Cemetery without stating that there were no remains beneath it, even though the primary consideration at that time may have been the clearing of the battlefields rather than minute accuracy of records.

The Committee visited the Cemetery and found that it sloped considerably from North to South and a little from East to West, and that the soil of Plots 1,2,3 & 4 at the North end of the Cemetery was waterlogged. This may account for some shifting of the remains though not to the extent reported in some instances in the report marked "G".

There are in the Cemetery some 5000 graves in all, of which 3000 are graves of unknowns.

It would be quite impossible, according to the evidence of Capt Coghlan, to exhume the unknowns without also exhuming those whose identity has been recorded, for the reason that each row of graves is a continuous trench.

Therefore apart from the sentimental objections that might be raised by the relatives of those whose identity is recorded, the Committee is of the opinion that further exhumation would yield no higher percentage than 3.75 of total new identifications and probably less, in inverse proportion as the 68th Labour Company gained experience.

Therefore for the reasons set out above the Committee's recommendation is limited to this:

That the official records of Hooge Crater Cemetery be amended to correspond with the particulars recorded in report marked "G".

o o o

The original of this report is held by the CWGC, so if you would like an original copy, I would suggest you write to them and asked for a copy.

[keithmroberts]

that's very interesting. Thank you for posting it.

It seems that the fog of war persisted for some time, and shows some of the problems experienced by the labour companies. It doesn't fully explain the "sandbag only graves" unless it means that the labour company just accepted that a marker was evidence that a body had been in that approximate location, and therefore decided not to re-use the location. The comment that procedures were subsequently tightened up, shows perhaps concern that errors had crept in.

Keith

[Guest]

There are some interesting articles PAPERSPAST in Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume XLI, 15 September 1921, Page 5

Mike

[spof]

Hello all.

Milena has located the St Julian action groups press release article regarding the

St Julian Dressing Station Cemetery situation. It also contains the CWGC response however, I am unable to upload the document and translation onto the thread.

If somebody more IT savvy than me could pm me their email address, I will forward the complete attachment to you for uploading onto the thread. It does explain much and offers much food for thought.

As a matter of interest, a member of the other Great War site has just posted on a same issue thread an incredible document revealing payment for bodies and more. It makes sober reading!

Best wishes

Chris

The newspaper article Chris mentioned and a translation.

This is a translation of an article published on 27th May 2011 in the West Flanders (Belgian) regional weekly „Het Wekelijks Nieuws“

Commonwealth War Graves Commission Wants to Cut Down the Trees

„The decision to cut down the trees is wrong“

Sint Juliaan - In the Peperstraat in Sint Juliaan, on the crossroad with the Brugseweg lies the Dressing Station Cemetery, a British graveyard with about 400 graves. There are also some six trees, but the Commonwealth War Graves Commission wants to pull them up, to great disappointment of the people in the neighbourhood.

Three Tillia Euchloras, one silver lime tree and two Italian poplars stand in the cemetery. The trees were planted shortly after the Great War en stand there therefore more than 90 years: „It is a sin that someone wants to demolish such green monuments“, says Patrick Hoflack (41). „The nature worked hard for 90 years to bring these absolutely healthy trees to the form in which they are today. I can understand that the two Italian poplars will be cut down, but do the four slowly growing indigenous trees have to disappear by all means as well?“

Also Willy Veraverbeke (74) stands in the breech for the trees. „I have lived here all of my life and I saw these trees grow“, he says. Every time I go out, I look at that. Hopefully those responsible will get their head together and will abandon their irresponsible decisions, but regardless all the protests, they were obviously given the green light anyway.“

„Vandalism“

The 64-year old Roland Dereyne often played in the surroundings of the Dressing Station Cemetery. „For us, the trees are real war souvenirs“, says he. „It is incomprehensible that the English, who are so mad about the greenery, want to bring down healthy trees here, just because. This is pure destruction of the nature, so as not to use the word vandalism.“

„Do the trees really have to go only because they make a few gravestones slant? It would surely be easier to simply move the gravestones“, says Patrick Hoflack. „In Lo, the Caesartree is also conserved. Hopefully there will be even more protest from other places, so that this greenery can stay. The request to pull up the trees was also filled in wrong. They ask to cut down four Tillia Euchloras and there are three plus one Tillia Tomentosa (silver lime tree – red.) Hopefully they will find out that not only did they fill the request wrong, but that also their decision to cut the trees is totally wrong.“

“No botanical garden“

Chris Griffiths-Hardman, horticultural manager of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for Northern Europe confirms that the trees will be cut down and that he already has the permission to do so. „It is always with ache in our heart that we cut the trees down, but they cause too much damage to the graves“ he motivates the decision. „Studies have shown that the poplars in the near future can seriously damage the ´Cross of Sacrifice´. For us it is a very important and delicate monument..“

To move the graves is no option for the CWGC. „Our main task is to commemorate the victims of the war. We are no botanical garden. I don´t think it shows much respect for the people who gave their lives in the war, to move their graves. Moreover, the trees will be replaced. They were quite old anyway.“

[keithmroberts]

Actually, the article seems quite reasoned, and doesn't to me lend much support to the idea of Belgians seeing the cemetery as other than it is. Moving the headstones is emotive in the context of a CWGC cemetery, but I have visited two English churchyards where private headstones for soldiers who died in the UK have been removed along with many others, and the CWGC have instead installed, "known to be" headstones in agreed locations. I'm not suggesting that such an approach is appropriate in a CWGC cemetery.

Keith

[chrislock]

Thank you for your uploading work SPOF.

The article does reveal much especially as per the relationship between CWGC cemeteries and many local people of today.

I would argue that as confirmed via the amazing information supplied in the post #106 and information revealed within the press reports, all is not what we believed in many cases.

Chris

[SteveMarsdin]

On the contrary Chris, I think the level of errors indicated in post #106 are well within what I would consider tolerable for a "front-line" location.

[truthergw]

Post 106 is indeed very informative. In particular, it mentions empty graves and gives a convincing answer as to why they were there. The same section describes how a body might be left behind. I think it confirms what has been said in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. A named stone will mark the resting place of a particular soldier. His remains will normally be under the stone, will certainly be in the cemetery and are very likely be close to the stone. Trench burials and cemeteries where the original wooden crosses were simply replaced by headstones are likely to carry the names of the men known to be buried there but most likely to have the stones placed according to pressures of space rather than marking individual graves.

[chrislock]

On the contrary Chris, I think the level of errors indicated in post #106 are well within what I would consider tolerable for a "front-line" location.

Good point but if we multiply this by including front line cemeteries up and down the Western Front battlefields, what sort of errors and numbers could we be speaking of then?

Chris

[chrislock]

Actually, the article seems quite reasoned, and doesn't to me lend much support to the idea of Belgians seeing the cemetery as other than it is. Moving the headstones is emotive in the context of a CWGC cemetery, but I have visited two English churchyards where private headstones for soldiers who died in the UK have been removed along with many others, and the CWGC have instead installed, "known to be" headstones in agreed locations. I'm not suggesting that such an approach is appropriate in a CWGC cemetery.

Keith

Well to me, the action groups prime mover or priority is to protect the trees and not to protect the graves. If they were campaigning to protect the graves because they were being forced out of the ground along with damage to the Cross of Sacrifice then surely they should be campaigning to remove the problem trees??

The CWGC official response offers an insight into how local communities can and often do see the cemeteries today.

I wish them luck and much success in maintaining our cemeteries and careing for our fallen as a priority in difficult times.

[Aurel Sercu]

I'll keep it short, but being a local I have a right to speak at last, and some may have waited for me to do that sooner ?

It has been pointed out by Chris, a couple of times in previous postings, that he heard that "many or most civilians here believe the cemeteries are generally empty and are memorial parks only " (# 60), and that here we have a "civilisation where a large group of the local population believe they are memorial stones" (# 71).

Other forum members after that really wondered about the "idea alleged to be held among large sections of the Belgian population that the cemeteries are largely empty", and if "this is a widespread belief among locals". (G.A.C. # 77)

Chris heard what he heard. And I have no reason to doubt if he heard what was said to him or not.

But I can say :

- I have lived here (Boezinge) since 1974 (almost 38 years)

- I have developed a very intense interest in WW1 since the early 1990s

- I have spoken to hundreds and hundreds of locals, about WW1, about cemeteries etc.

But never have I heard once, never have I met one person who believes that the cemeteries in Boezinge or other villages in the Salient are empty and memorial parks only.

Chris, I do not want to argue about this, but if one thing is clear : we are in touch with entirely different locals.

Or maybe I didn't listen well enough to my fellow villagers, or closed my ears for what I did not want to hear ... ;-)

Aurel

[chrislock]

Fair enough Aurel. Each to their own but my only response to that is if I could introduce you to the young teenagers during my next English day school invitation or to my neighbours, Sylvan and Annie and they all confirm the following question; would you believe my observations then?

1.Chris, are soldiers actually buried there or are they memorials only?

By the way you do know me Aurel and like you I will only reveal what I have heard, just as you have revealed so somewhere there there must be a gap in education, localities or another unexplained reason such as repatriation beliefs.

Chris

[Aurel Sercu]

Chris,

A question because maybe I am not sure I understand your point. (In this and previous postings ... And I must say I have not read all the postings in these 5 pages of this topic.)

The "many or most locals" of our population who believe that the cemeteries are largely empty, are they youngsters, or adults of our generation ? Maybe you only mean : youngsters ? Or have you heard - maybe indirectly - that the cemeteries largely are empty, also from the post war generation that is no longer with us ?

Sorry if this is a stupid question (but as English is not my mother tongue) ... The "young teenagers during your English day school invitation" are they ... English ? Or Flemish ? (This really is a serious question.)

So the question that is asked to you is : "Chris, are soldiers actually buried there or are they memorials only ?"

Who asks this question ? English - Flemish students ?

And Sylvan and Annie ask the same question too ?

I'm afraid this is becoming a little confusing for me.

I had understood from your previous postings (like # 60 and # 71) that when you speak to locals in the area where you live, or in the Salient, of all generations, that the opinion they express is that they (the Flemish locals) believe that most graves are empty ?

Is that what you mean ? Did I understand or interpret correctly ?

If there is a misunderstanding between us, no problem if you blame me for that.

Well, all I can say - after having been a teacher for over 30 years in Ypres - I have never had to deal with students of mine who were skeptic as to the presence of buried soldiers in our cemeteries.

Aurel

P.S. I'm afraid I do not understand either when you mention "repatriation beliefs".

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... In particular, it mentions empty graves and gives a convincing answer as to why they were there. The same section describes how a body might be left behind. I think it confirms what has been said in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. A named stone will mark the resting place of a particular soldier. His remains will normally be under the stone, will certainly be in the cemetery and are very likely be close to the stone.

I'm sorry but that doesnt make sense. You acknowledge the existence of empty graves with crosses which said that an identified soldier is buried in that grave when clearly he isnt, and then claim that "… A named stone will mark the resting place of a particular soldier. His remains will normally be under the stone, will certainly be in the cemetery and are very likely be close to the stone." Both circumstances cannot be correct at the same time.

How many times did this occurrence described at Hooge (the planting of named crosses over empty graves) occur elsewhere ? What about the note in the document quoted in post # 106 that "The result of the work of the 126th Labour Company has been to establish the identity of 3 of the 80 unknown and to disprove the identity of 5 of the 55 known. ... There was undoubted carelessness in the 5 instances in which exhumation showed that the body recorded as the body of one soldier was that of another."

Five misidentifications out of fifty-five is an 11% error rate, and failing the exhumations that would have meant five men being buried under headstones which named a different man, and five men being named on a memorial to the missing when in fact they were buried at Hooge.

Remember that these errors in part of Hooge Crater Cemetery only came to light because that part of Hooge Crater was exhumed. If it hadnt been exhumed then the errors would never have been exposed. There can hardly be any doubt at all that these "errors" were repeated in a vast number of IWGC cemeteries, especially the small battle area and large concentration cemeteries. The very nature of the work being carried out and the circumstances under which it was carried out make that an inevitability.

Tom

Nb - Roy (post 106) is the fellow WFA member I referred to in post # 63. (Thanks for releasing that particular bit of info somewhat earlier than planned Roy, and per your pm I hope you have now resolved the digestive biscuit and other stuff on the keyboard problem !).

[Muerrisch]

Have I missed any French contribution, please? All the above seems to be Belgian-orientated.

To summarize what I have read above:

There is a possibility that civilians were paid to report bodies, and a possibility that there was a differential rate, so a possibility of misrepresentation of remains. I have seen no proof.

There is a certainty that a small percentage of "graves" are empty, and a certainty that some bodies are not exactly by the headstone but nearby.

There is a certainty that there is a disagreement among residents of Belgium contributing to this thread as to the beliefs of other Belgians regarding the emptiness or otherwise of cemeteries, and the legitimacy of using them as memorial parks or even places of recreation.

There is a certainty that the IWGC and its successor have done and are doing a fabulously good job, begun in appalling circumstances.

Have I missed any, shall we say, salient points?

[chrislock]

Aurel.

As you know I also have lived and worked here for a fair few years now also. The school is a Belgian school and is situated near to the Novotel the name I will not reveal for obvious reasons. The age group I have been invited to talk to for at least three years now are all Belgian. Their age group is around 12-15 I believe. The teachers have informed me that WW1 is not taught in any detail however WW2 is.

I have not got got a clue on how many people of this age group live elsewhere in Belgium let alone around the Salient but it wil be many.

I have just spoken with a Flemish friend who is a father of two teenage girls and he informs me they have also just confirmed they learn WW2 but not WW1, perhaps only in major bullet points but they also have no input on the work of the CWGC either!

If I put that question as quoted to them they are either not sure is the response or they feel the stones represent men who were killed. Their grandfathers were repatriated to their villages and towns mostly and perhaps here is the confusion. If their forefathers were repatriated to their families during or after the war then without CWGC input, why not then the "English" as they seem to call them all.

I have also been invited to speak with residents of the 'Zickenhuis van de Zwarte zusters' in Ypres and they are in their 70's -80's and they are much better so perhaps it is an age thing??

As for my neighbours, their knowledge of the Great War is limited to say the least and they have lived here twice as long as you so now I am confused!!

Chris

[SiegeGunner]

I must say that I am finding it hard to get excited about exactitude down to a matter of feet or inches, but that may be because my great-uncle Jack's name is on a stone panel at Pozières and whatever remains of him lies under a field about 20 miles away ...

[tipperary]

Their age group is around 12-15 I believe. The teachers have informed me that WW1 is not taught in any detail however WW2 is.

There Maybe is the core of the problem. In Ireland generations of school children were taught nothing of the irish men who fought and died in ww1 lack of education over generations is going to give distorted views on issues when compared to people who have been taught about these things.If the school teachers dont teach the kids xyz dont expect them to know about xyz.john

Grumpys point about views in france i think is interesting i think french memory is very fresh and aware of the losses in the war.

[Steven Broomfield]

Sylvan and Annie and they all confirm the following question; would you believe my observations then?

1.Chris, are soldiers actually buried there or are they memorials only?

Chris

I hope this doesn't sound a silly observation, but if that is the actual wording, I'm not sure I take it as an assumption they believe that the graves are empty. I'd take it as a request for confirmation that they aren't empty - if I heard from some clot that the graves were empty (and didn't believe them), I'd probably take the opportunity to confirm the truth.

I might also add that, many years ago, I attended a talk by a local CWGC chap in Cambridge, and at the end a member of the audience (an educated woman) expressed surprise that the graves actually had bodies in. It's not just the Belgains who (allegedly) don't believe.

[Aurel Sercu]

Sorry, Chris, this is getting too confusing for me. And I am afraid there is no real clarification in your reply.

(Let it be clear : our little disagreepent is not about the question wheter WW1 is taught at schools or not. Or the repatriation of Belgian soldiers to home towns and villages after the war. (Yes, about half (?) were).

Maybe I'd better reread the whole Topic. But I thought (wrongly ?) that this "sham" question is about CWGC cemeteries.

Your point is that many / most locals here do not believe that the CWGC cemeteries have (largely) graves. They believe they are only memorial parks.

My point : I cannot say that what you say is untrue. For you can only reproduce what you hear from your locals. But this is not my experience from the past 40 years. I have never heard anybody express that opinion.

She let's agree that we disagree. Or better : that your experience is different from mine. :-)

Let me also add : my students were 15 - 18 year old ... girls. Who knows ... :-)

Aurel