War cemeteries a sham?

[SiegeGunner]

Thank you for pointing that out.

While I'm on a roll, perhaps I could also point out that 'internment' means imprisonment and it's 'interment' that means burial.

[phil andrade]

You're right : I wrote internment instead of interment.

Doh !

Phil (PJA)

[phil andrade]

If you mean cenotaph as derived from the Greek - empty tomb - then that claim is way off the mark.

Tom

Edit - sorry, I should have been clearer. I do mean empty graves under headstones in CWGC cemeteries, not some play on words, or edifice (cenotaph) other than a conventional headstone.

Does this mean that the body is not under the headstone, but is in the close vicinity ? That would certainly be different from a sham.

Phil (PJA)

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Does this mean that the body is not under the headstone, ...

Sorry Phil, I must have misunderstood. I thought that when you said "There are no Cenotaphs in the CWGC cemeteries." that you meant "There are no Cenotaphs in the CWGC cemeteries."

Tom

[Guest buddy]

how sad this topic is. Are we seriously questioning the integrity of the CWGC. do we think they would of done a great deception with the burials of the soldiers? NO. do we think they got everything right with the burials after the war? NO. the mammoth task after the war to bury the dead was almost impossible, mistakes would have been made. does that mean when you go to a gravestone you`re thinking ,is he here, or 3 feet to the right or left,or is he not in the grave at all.NO of course not we go to pay our respects.

[chrislock]

Sad or not, valid points have been raised and I for one now have a greater understanding on what happened during the war and in the immediate aftermath when concerning the clearing the battlefields fallen.

By the way, none of the negative stuff highlighted has anything whatsoever to do with the CWGC. They simply maintain and dedicate their wonderful work to what they inherited from others. Long may they continue.

[phil andrade]

Sorry Phil, I must have misunderstood. I thought that when you said "There are no Cenotaphs in the CWGC cemeteries." that you meant "There are no Cenotaphs in the CWGC cemeteries."

Tom

No need to apologise, Tom. My fault entirely... somehow I seem to be getting very confused.

Phil (PJA)

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... By the way, none of the negative stuff highlighted has anything whatsoever to do with the CWGC. They simply maintain and dedicate their wonderful work to what they inherited from others. Long may they continue.

Quite. “… what they inherited from others” being particularly pertinent.

Apart from that it sometimes feels as if one is up against a tidal wave of naivety.

Tom

[keithjk]

I think it is fairly obvious that, had the IWGC conspired to cover France and Belgium with ‘empty’ cemeteries, there would have been no ‘Known Unto God’ headstones. Every man killed during the war would have had his own headstone/memorial.

Unfortunately, thanks to their integrity, the IWGC caused problems, both for themselves and for virtually every family in the UK. From a purely monetary point of view, they had to finance the building of memorials to The Missing, such as the Menin Gate, Thiepval etc. It would have been much cheaper to have installed a headstone to each missing soldier in a cemetery close to where he was known to have died (ie, replace each ‘Known Unto God’ stone with a named headstone). An added advantage would have been that something like 300,000 mothers/wives/children would have had a specific, more personal place at which to mourn their loss.

The IWGC, rightly, decided to be completely above-board. A cynic might suggest that they foresaw the advent of DNA testing, the Internet, and Forums like this one, and knew that they would eventually be caught out if they were less than scrupulously honest !!!

Keith

[hazelclark]

From all that I have been reading for the past 9 months, it seems remarkable to me that anybody knows where just about anybody was buried. Unless the soldier died in a CCS or hospital or WELL behind the lines,permanently marking an individual grave was well nigh impossible. The war time conditions were so horrendous that people were buried and exposed by shellfire several times over and makeshift markers were used which in most cases disappeared fast. (I read somewhere or other that they were even used by soldiers for fires when they were nearly freezing to death in the winter.) Not to mention those just piled into mass graves by friend and foe alike.

Anyway, whoever was responsible for the final clearup and permanent memorial and grave marking had a mammoth and unenviable task. While I am quite sure there was some "jukery pookery?)with respect to personal effects and artifacts, they did the best they could in the circumstances. Technology has moved along and hindsight is always 20/20

Hazel C.

[chrislock]

I spoke to some gardeners last week at St Julian ADS CWGC cemetery and they informed me that when digging for whatever purpose within the cemeteries they informed me that remains are found all over the place and at any depth and sometimes when they attempt to locate a soldiers remains on purpose so that they dont dig into him they can't locate him!! Their words not mine.

I also believe the IWGC inherited a nightmare but have done the best since in the most difficult of circumstances. The document "Clearing the dead" posted near to the start of this thread blew me away!!

Salutations to the CWGC of today.

[roel22]

I spoke to some gardeners last week at St Julian ADS CWGC cemetery and they informed me that when digging for whatever purpose within the cemeteries they informed me that remains are found all over the place and at any depth and sometimes when they attempt to locate a soldiers remains on purpose so that they dont dig into him they can't locate him!! Their words not mine.

There are headstones for these men as well: "Known (or believed to be) buried in this cemetery"

Just out of curiosity: why would they ever try to locate a soldiers remains?

Roel

[chrislock]

During the recent trees removals, the root systems were lifting the concrete beams and headstones out of the ground. The heavy digging machinery would have also lifted any remains so they first must locate the remains just in case they are close to the beams themselves. Again their version not mine but I do understand why they must do this.

[roel22]

OK, makes sense, Chris.

About why they may not find (m)any remains: years ago I read a thread where Terry Denham wrote how little of a body was sufficient to earn a grave.

I do not recall the exact percentage, but it was very little (below 10, I believe).

Roel

[chrislock]

To me also but what surprised me, was when they said they have experienced on occasions when deep digging is required for root cutting, removal or for whatever reason, when they expect to find remains, none are in fact discovered!

Could they have dissolved or dusted in this time frame?

[Chris_Baker]

I don't know whether I have just been unobservant in the past (likely) but on my most recent trip we found shell fragments, shrapnel and even bullets in amongst the soil of the flower beds at several cemeteries - and this despite 90 plus years of gardening. It is a reminder of the condition of the ground into which the men were buried in the "battlefield" plots, and a wonder we know where any of them are.

[seaforths]

The deterioration would depend on many variables that might best be addressed by a geologist; types of soil, exposure to contaminants in the soil, above ground and below etc. The chemicals must have permeated the soil for miles around the battlefields. Also the quicklime and cresol used in abandundance is contaminant that they could have been exposed to as the following Op. Order extract for April 1917 shows:

(6) Dead animals will be buried by Units whose H.Q. are nearest to the carcase.

(7) Cresol and quicklime can be drawn from Brigade Dump in FISH TUNNEL.

The chemicals would not be restricted to the area in which they were used - the would be borne on the breeze too. The pounding that the land above and below these countries took from aerial bombing, shells, mining, digging of trenches, caves, tunnels, dugouts may also have contributed to large shifts under the surface over time. I was reading earlier this week of how entrances to dugouts and tunnels are still making appearances or, I should say reappearances, in the sides of sunked roads due to the land still shifting.

[seaforths]

I have been reading and following this as it has developed and taken many twists and turns in terms of subject matter and emotion (as it was bound to do) and I have gone through a range of emotions myself reading it, including distress. I have also resisted speaking out but am about to remedy that too. I realise I am backtracking somewhat but I was shocked at some responses of the discussion. Many of you will have read around subjects regarding the war to the nth degree, following the battles and movements on land, sea and in the air and the medical aspects too. In amongst this material is the plight of the French and Belgian civilian population which people now seem to have been blinded to or have in the emotion of the subject, forgotten.

As David Rorie points out (Medico’s Luck in the War) many disliked the French civilians as they always seemed to be ‘on the make’ but, he also follows this up by pointing out the suffering they had to endure for 4 years and if they had the chance to get something that might improve their impoverishment – who can blame them? So many lost all they had, including the lives of their loved ones – yet they still gave, for the best part willingly to help the Foreign Armies. Acts of bravery are there too. The woman who was implored to relocate and refused, she continued to milk her cow daily, attracting heavy fire. She took the milk into the trenches for the soldiers, again under fire. She took them hot coffee and ministered their wounds as best she could. As Rorie points out this was not an isolated incident – they received no medals or recognition. After the Armistice was signed the conditions became worse for a long time before they got better. The British Army turned their attention to feeding starving populations. They boiled flesh and bones of dead horses that were not ‘too far gone’ hunted for vegetables where they could find them and used their own rations too. The Government of France and probably Belgium too, were in no position to help ease the situation. To add to their suffering, an influenza pandemic that claimed the lives of an estimated 50 million worldwide. The flu afflicted over 25 percent of the U.S. population. In one year, the average life expectancy in the United States dropped by 12 years – how this must have ravaged these already weakened populations in that same year. Also difficult to deal with; the thousands of starving refugees on the roads trying to return to what little was left for them to return to. Rorie’s account of this goes on into April 1919 – but the plight of these people continued.

Another factor which may not have been considered is desensitisation. That many of the soldiers became desensitised to the horror of their situation, I have no doubt. Who could set up a fire and cook ham for breakfast next to two decapitated corpses still running blood? To have the half exposed body of a German corpse embedded in the trench opposite your dugout and then as the writer in this instance states when he became unsupportable, I had him removed. The same writer (Campaign Reminiscences) records their shock and distress at having to deal with the dead when they first arrived. The civilian populations of France and Belgium must surely have also become desensitised too?

Things that are totally abhorrent to us and don’t bear thinking about now how easy for us to judge from the comfort of our armchairs. The exchange of German bodies passed off for an Allied soldiers - unscrupulous and desensitised? Desperate for food and/or medicine for themselves or family? – the body of someone already dead could save the life of someone in your family – what would you do? That it happened is truly awful but we must consider the time and background against which these acts were committed – and hope too, that there occurrences were few and far between. Let us also consider how rumours spread too then and now. A few isolated occurrences talked about spreads and suddenly the tar brush comes out. We may never know why this happened.

Thank you to the Belgian gentlemen posting – for your honesty. I am sorry that you seemed to be sniped at for this. You could so easily have kept quiet or even said no – that didn’t happen. But you didn’t – you spoke up and as I see it told the truth. And in trying all these years later to understand – we must look at the bigger picture of what occurred and acknowledge that too.

People see the cemeteries as memorial parks – it would take a survey on a very large scale across different age ranges to validate this. The CWGC could address this by putting up large information boards showing the history of how the cemetery was set up and the Labour Corps and that they are indeed graves – not just memorial markers (Culloden has signs stating the battlefield is also a burial ground and should be respected as such). However, something worth considering, would the fallen rather hear the vibrancy of life above them that they died to protect? Or have people tiptoe around speaking reverently in hushed voices? Disrespect to me means there is some element of intent and I don't think the intent is there. The notices should be placed because the task of the Labour Corps – which has been highlighted in previous posts also deserves a huge acknowledgement – they put their own health at risk knowingly or unknowingly to do their best. In addition, one only has to visit an old area of a cemetery at home to see how much in these areas the ground has shifted (and that ground has not been subjected to the pounding from above and below as have these areas) hardly surprising then, bodies are not exactly where they should be anymore. Cemeteries offer so much as places to sit and remember in quiet contemplation, places to celebrate the life of one who has passed on etc. I know a few people who on certain anniversaries go as a family to tidy up the graves of loved ones, take flasks and sandwiches etc - it's not wrong or disrespectful but it's different.

Were mistakes made? Of course they were, considering the task itself, its enormity and the tools they had (or didn’t have) in terms of technology and it would be a task equal in enormity to check how many were made – sorry a diary entry and multiplication sum cannot give any accuracy whatsoever as there are far too many variables, but it is good evidence to highlight mistakes happened. However, mistakes continue to be made and here the CWGC with the exceptional work they do, accept at face value evidence presented to them from researchers. They do not I assume have the manpower or resources to verify the accuracy. I believe there are unscrupulous individuals (calling themselves researchers) who would cloud the issues, manipulate or withhold to gain the kudos of identifying an unknown soldier – particularly if it was a high profile case. This is highlighted by the Holts book ‘My Boy Jack?’ Whereby research evidence presented in recent years, accepted and acted upon by CWGC is examined and found to be seriously flawed and an unacceptable piece of research. It would seem that they do their subjects a huge disservice and lack of respect in return for their own personal gain.

I am sorry for such a long post and I hope in writing this, I have not offended or upset anyone in any way for that was not my intent it has been done solely to highlight and address some of the issues raised and bring them together along with factors I believe have been overlooked by reactionary posting in the heat of the moment. If you have taken time to read this then thank you very much and let us remember them all - soldiers and civilians.

Best wishes - Marjorie

[dah]

I visited the Somme battlefields this past weekend - and discussed this thread with a few France-based people, including a very pleasant CWGC chap from the French office.

The CWGC chap was surprised that anyone would even consider the cemeteries were anything other than the resting place of the remains of our soldiers - which I think the vast majority of us agree with.

Another source suggested that the concentration cemeteries would definitely contain remains under or near to each headstone - but that the same may not necessarily be said of the smaller cemeteries on battlefields which were repeatedly churned by shellfire as the war ebbed and flowed above. These remains could well be reduced to fragments to be scattered around or some distance from the original grave.....making the possibility of removal to concentration cemeteries impractical. (Personally, I visit these smaller cemeteries more often than the larger concentration ones....precisely because the soldiers are commemorated closer to the place where they fell)

Don't know whether the above views are evidence-based (in fact, probably not)- but they certainly have a ring of logic to them.

Regards,

David

[seaforths]

I think you are right David, not only in the logic but Derek Bird's book The Spirit of the Troops is Excellent I believe highlights such an incident. There was a cemetery site where they erected grave crosses and a large memorial cross and he includes a sketch in the book - the work of one of the soldiers. However, when they came to relocate the remains of this cemetery to a larger cemetery after the war, I think there were only 3 graves remaining intact. I don't recall if the others then had no known graves. I will get the book out tomorrow and check. Also in the 6th Seaforths diaries it says, the Padre or Officer i/c the burial party was supposed to submit details of those buried and a map of these cemeteries to the Divisional Graves Officer - I will also check that too and post any further details or correct my information.

Marjorie

[seaforths]

I have checked as per my previous post and Derek Bird's book is saying that the cross and most of the graves for May & June near the trenches didn't survive but 3 did - it does not mention whether they then have no known graves. The diaries state the following:

'

'The Chaplain or Officer in charge of the party will notify to the Divisional

Graves Records Officer the number, rank, name and unit of each man buried

and map location of the Cemetery in which buried.'

This information if it was passed might have been of limited use if the ground had been churned up after the burials in which case they can only have done their best afterwards.

Marjorie

[phil andrade]

The CWGC chap was surprised that anyone would even consider the cemeteries were anything other than the resting place of the remains of our soldiers - which I think the vast majority of us agree with.

Regards,

David

That comment has my wholehearted agreement, certainly.

Commentators who write about the Great War just get things wrong now and then, don't they ?

For example, the scores of thousands of missing commemorated on those huge memorials : peole assume that their bodies were never found for burial......they fail to appreciate that so many of them are buried as " A Soldier of The Great War, Known unto God."

This particular book - which I think is superb in its approach in cetain aspects - makes an honourable but flawed attempt to remind the general reader about how catastrophic the Great War was.

Phil (PJA)

[hazelclark]

Anyone interested in this subject may want to read Neil Hanson's book "Unknown Soldiers", The Missing of the Somme" The title is a bit misleading. It does document the life of a British and German infantryman and an American aviator all of whom died around the area of the Somme, but the latter part of the book deals with the search for bodies and their disposal, and goes into some detail about how the "Unknown Warrior" was chosen and the ceremony involved. The book discusses the hurdles families had to deal with in trying to get bodies identified and the bureaucratic red tape involved. Having money and influence certainly didn't hurt! Anyway, it is one of the best books I have come across for a while and very relevant to this topic for the general reader.

Hazel C.

[seaforths]

Thanks for that one Hazel - I will look that one out as it sounds really interesting. I mentioned the book 'My Boy Jack?' by Tonie & Valmai Holt in a previous post. Unlike the dramatisation - this is the factual stuff the drama was based around (which took a bit of artistic licence). There is tons of information on war graves: how the Commission took over from the Directorate and the involvement of Fabian Ware & Rudyard Kipling. The end chapters discuss some of the mistakes that were made regarding John Kipling and other soldiers. They give as one of their examples how routine maintenance on a headstone in 1995 led them for some reason to get out the original documentation from 1921 and found there were 2 soldiers identified in 1921 who were not given identified head stones at the time. As a result, they now have marked headstones and their names have been removed from from a list of missing at the Pozieres Memorial. John Kiplings name was supposed to be removed from the missing on the Loos memorial too, since they have now named his head stone, I can only assume they haven't done so as it turns out the evidence submitted to identify him turns out to be not particularly sound.

Also, from the same book, in 1921 (September) when the Directorate handed over to the Commission, there was some sort of public outcry and protests as bereaved felt that without the soldiers help, the small staff of the Commission would not be able to carry on the work properly - the book cites an article in the People newspaper 'The Soldiers Graves Scandal' but I haven't been able to find an archive for that particular newspaper - perhaps someone else might have more success. It is an interesting book as it shows how they managed to get the land for the cemeteries and memorials, originally they wanted 12 big memorials. Also how the memorials and head stones were designed and made and the inscriptions etc.

It is another example of how they acknowledge mistakes were made and are still striving to get it right - and, as you said Hazel the money and influence counted for something (Kipling used his contacts and clout to get his son a commission - and had to live with the that - he also used it in a good way to help the war effort and war graves work)

This topic has taken so many twists and turns - I'm off now to search for that book - thanks again Hazel

Marjorie

[hazelclark]

Have seen the movie about john Kipling but not the book. Will look for it.

H.C.