War cemeteries a sham?

[chrislock]

And it is up to you to accept the evidence when it does appear!

Your last paragraph really is inappropriate because it has been printed in the press and it has been aired on TV media channels but as some here find it absolutely impossible to believe or understand that anyone could have opposite views on how and what CWGC cemeteries are or how a local situation developed due to this fact, now that is unbelievable!

I cannot have been the only resident of West Flanders who read this press article or saw photographs of the action group in question demonstrating outside of the cemetery walls.

Please allow me time to locate the article before you hang me after stating that it never happened or indeed take place.

[George Armstrong Custer]

It seems that there are two issues being put forward here.

The first is that Belgian locals in the 1920's 'sold' German remains disguised with Tommy insignia etc to the IWGC. Egbert tells us, on the basis of hearsay, that he believes that as a result of this practice, "many, many poppies on CWGC graves honor other than British dead." Geluveld tells us, on the basis of anecdotal evidence, that " it would only be a very low number of un-identified bodies that are buried this way."

The second issue is that we are being told of the idea, alleged to be held amongst large sections of the Belgian population, that the cemeteries are largely empty, and that the British idea that they are actually burial grounds is a sham. If this is a widespread belief amongst locals, then there can only be one of two reasons for it. The first is as I myself suggested in an earlier post:

" You can see why this might be an attractive myth to some of those living in the communities located amid the Great War cemeteries. What would you rather have on your doorstep, a string of cemeteries which must be treated as such, or "beautiful memorial parks" which can be used to walk the dog, have picnic parties and other recreational activities? Tell yourself often enough that they're not really cemeteries and you're on your way to justifying viewing them as beautifully laid out recreational areas which simply memorialise those who fell. Tell the next generation it is so and they will grow up believing it implicitly and will be hard to convince otherwise. It's still just a myth, of course, but you can see how it might be a powerfully attractive one to some locals."

The alternative is that offered by Chris Locke, that large numbers of the local population are terminally ignorant due to an apparent total lack of education about the cemeteries they have lived amongst for nearly a century. In fact, given that the CWGC apparently had to point out the disturbed graves caused by the roots of the trees in what the locals apparently think of as their 'park', we're being asked to believe that they're terminally stupid.

With the best will in the world, it has to be said that the Belgian locals do not come out of any of these innuendo and fact-free laden tales well. According to what we're being told by some on this thread, they were selling German remains as British to the IWGC in the '20's (in either large or low numbers, depending upon whether you believe Egbert's or Geluveld's hearsay), and today they either pretend that the cemeteries are empty of human remains and use them as memorial parks for recreational purposes, or they are too ignorant or stupid to see what is staring them in the face. All that can be said with certainty is that this flies in the face of the documented care by which the Army and then the IWGC went about its work in the post war years - and whilst there were certainly errors, by and large if a body is said to be in a certain cemetery it almost certainly will have been buried there, and in most cases not too far from the stone bearing its name. Against this sober fact we have been given a string of innuendo and suggestion which does the Belgian people no favours whatsoever in presenting them as either callous ingrates or ignorant morons. Quite apart from British people who have been upset by some of what's been suggested here, I'd be pretty hacked off if I were a Belgian reading this.

George

[Roger H]

Are we not getting these two things confused?

(1) The assertion that some graves are empty or contain bones that are not necessarily those relating to the person named on the headstone - because some residents were taking "bounty" money, and

(2) Some residents believe the stones are merely memorials

I have asserted previously that it is possible in some instances that remains may be a short distance from the headstone. I refuse to believe further than that. However, it is quite possible that Chris' point that the locals consider that the cemeteries are "parks" may be true. They are wrong they are cemeteries. I have no reason to disbelieve the story about the residents moaning about the trees - again, their views are misguided. They are not parks despite what the locals believe, and for whatever reason they believe it to be so.

Roger

[keithmroberts]

Can we please turn down the fury on this. There are too many generalisations here from people who know better.

There is no need for this fury.

I don't want to close the thread, but posters must show some sensitivity in their posts.

Keith Roberts

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

I think the best response I can offer now is that I will have to locate the relevent newspaper response from the CWGC. ... As soon as I locate a copy I will scan and present it for your viewing:

Chris - as far as this aspect of the discussion goes (are they cemeteries, or not) then the published CWGC response may clarify things for us, and your knowledge of how the CWGC response was recieved (and understood) locally would then be of interest.

Strange that on the one hand local wisdom on the salient seems to be that post-war some of the locals were making a shilling revealing soldier's remains to the IWGC so they could bury them in the salient's cemeteries, yet some alternate local wisdom on the salient seems to be that there are no bodies in the cemeteries. How does that work ? Dont they speak to each other ?

Which bit of this is a cemetery, it has human remains in it do the Belgians (we are led to believe) not understand ? Sorry but I just cant get my head round this, and am beginning to have strange thoughts about things like the value of building land in Belgium.

The foregoing, though, is an entirely seperate discussion to that about the connection between headstones in cemeteries and what may or may not be going on underneath them. I'm sure some correspondents on this topic will remember the discussions last year about Private 87903 Frank Allen of the King's Liverpool Regiment (?). Last time I was in France I visited Frank Allen's grave / headstone at Mory Abbey Cemetery. Later the same day I visited his grave / headstone at Favreul British Cemetery.

Here is a typical example of the neat and well ordered layout of headstones in a CWGC battlefield cemetery >

You dont need ground penetrating radar here; simply read the CWGC's own write-up for the cemetery (Fricourt New Military Cemetery). The headstone = burial position immediately collapses as the bulk of the burials here are in four burial pits. I'm afraid that to claim that this is not the case for probably a very large percentage of the battlefield cemeteries (I'm not including post-war concentration cemeteries here) would probably be a very naive position to take.

Tom

[chrislock]

What we ned here are open minds! We need to accept that another nations ideology may be very diffrent to anothers even if it was never intended to be disrespectful with intent in the first place.

The original broadside dealt with insinuating that the CWGC cemeteries are shams.

Without doubt we all know that is not the case whatever is said.

The additional information offered on the actual ground situation today as far as a section or many of the local population are concerned should offer those here who are capable of having an open mind come to the necessary conclusion as also posted above on how all or much of this came about.

Bingo! I have just located some online press reports in Dutch. I will not copy and paste or translate into English as I could be accused of tampering so I will simply include the link and allow you to translate yourselves once I have eaten my pizza!!

OK here you go.

http://www.focus-wtv.be/nieuws/algemeen/mannen-in-de-bres-voor-bomen-op-begraafplaats-dressing-station-cemetary-in-st-juliaan/article-1195016306834.htm

The guys in the photo were the three leading the residents action group challenge against the trees removal even though the graves were being forced out of the ground. The article lists nothing whatsoever about their concerns for the cemetery but only about their concerns for the beautiful trees and village enviroment.

As soon as I find the CWGC response article I will also post accordingly especially for the likes of Grumpy,s benefit.

Chris

[chrislock]

Most valid post by Tom who does indeed have an open mind!

Here is the village follow up article. I will visit the CWGC tomorrow and attempt to locate their response article.

Here is the situation today:

http://www.focus-wtv.be/nieuws/algemeen/war-graves-commission-verwijdert-oude-bomen-op-begraafplaats/article-4000028568332.htm

Chris

[ph0ebus]

Has anyone contacted the author or publisher of the book that ignited this controversy here on the GWF?

Has anyone read the article I posted?

Tom raises a good point re: the unit history mention of empty graves. Have other pals come across similar entries?

Daniel

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

"De Engelse ..............."

Ah, right, so its an English cemetery. That's ok then

Tom

[Neil Mackenzie]

Sorry if this link has been posted before but I thought this gave a fair idea of some of the problems faced in recovering, identifying and burying bodies after the war.

Clearing the Dead

Inevitably it was not a completely smooth process and the bounty paid to locals (referred to in the accounts from a Mr Chapman near the end of the article) I am sure led to a few people abusing the system. But you would need to have a very low opinion of the French and Belgians to believe it was a widespread practice (and I don't!).

Equally I can believe that in cases of mass burial not every headstone will be adjacent to the body it represents - but it will be close.

One of the things I like about the cemeteries in France and Belgium is that they are part of the local community and local landscape. If the locals see them as 'parks' they at least (in most cases) treat them with respect and care about them. I have seen locals using the CWGC cemeteries to walk their dogs, rest after a strenuous cycle ride or have a quiet cigarette at the end of the day. They are not treating them as 'parks' as some of us might think - if they were using them to play football or some such I could understand the concern.

Neil

[ph0ebus]

Sorry if this link has been posted before but I thought this gave a fair idea of some of the problems faced in recovering, identifying and burying bodies after the war.

Clearing the Dead

Inevitably it was not a completely smooth process and the bounty paid to locals (referred to in the accounts from a Mr Chapman near the end of the article) I am sure led to a few people abusing the system. But you would need to have a very low opinion of the French and Belgians to believe it was a widespread practice (and I don't!).

Equally I can believe that in cases of mass burial not every headstone will be adjacent to the body it represents - but it will be close.

One of the things I like about the cemeteries in France and Belgium is that they are part of the local community and local landscape. If the locals see them as 'parks' they at least (in most cases) treat them with respect and care about them. I have seen locals using the CWGC cemeteries to walk their dogs, rest after a strenuous cycle ride or have a quiet cigarette at the end of the day. They are not treating them as 'parks' as some of us might think - if they were using them to play football or some such I could understand the concern.

Neil

Hi Neil,

This was the very article I posted and refernced. I found it well written and quite relevant to our discussion here.

Daniel

[Roger H]

....................the bulk of the burials here are in four burial pits. I'm afraid that to claim that this is not the case for probably a very large percentage of the battlefield cemeteries (I'm not including post-war concentration cemeteries here) would probably be a very naive position to take.

Tom

Tom

A good post. I agree that there will certainly be some cemeteries where the bodies are in burial pits, but is the point about "a very large percentage" just speculation on your part or do you have CWGC details?

Roger

[keithfazzani]

Most villages in this country have graveyards, they are used variously as nature reserves, areas to relax and contemplate etc. Most communities regard them as part of the community and are often rightly concerned when they need to have trees felled or other alterations made. However I have, as yet to meet anyone who believes that no one is buried in them.

[chrislock]

But what if dogs and cycles are banned from CWGC cemeteries. Would that then be considered as a lack of respect shown as per regarding the gardeners hard work?

Before I moved over here I thought I had seen it all and had a really good idea of the situation on the ground. Then I moved here and since then, well I have seen games of frizzbee, football, skateboarding, dog training and more spring to mind here. Should I include the other unsavory events which now take place within the cemeteries and memorial enclosures? Better not or I will be hung for mentioning this stuff also but do we live in a secret state, of course not so sweeping this stuff away and not revealing to all is not a real option however, I hear many on this site attempting to secure info on all sorts of subjects which they feel strongly about and perhaps this is good and necesary for the forum.

What really gets my gripe though is when certain members are so entrenched in their own views and are unable or cannot accept anothers views or because they personally have never witnessed whatever and if not, then it could not have possibly happened.

I am doing my best here to assist those who have an open mind to enable them to come to a balanced answer.

This thread has been one of the most testing I have ever participated in and probably due to the fact that many are revealing stuff here that is difficult to understand: most probably due to culture and pride. We shall see....

[keithfazzani]

Perhaps people are disrespectful in cemeteries, that would not be an exclusively Belgian problem. But proves nothing other than disrespect. It may help people justify such activities by claiming that they "thought they were parks or memorial gardens" whether they believe it or not. Sometimes people use such justifications so many times that some may even begin to believe it. However I don't believe that people always believe what they claim to believe.

[Neil Mackenzie]

Hi Neil,

This was the very article I posted and referenced. I found it well written and quite relevant to our discussion here.

Daniel

Sorry Daniel - I knew I should have read the whole thread properly !!

[BPJermyn]

Gentlemen,

This forum is devoted to remembering the sacrifices of so many men.

I think we can all agree that the of burying the dead after the GW was an extremely daunting task and mistakes were made. I’ve personally contacted the CWGC on a few occasions where mistakes have been made.

My point, for what is worth, is that these places of remembrance are just that – to remember these fine young men who died so many years ago.

I like so many others find this thread disturbing however it will not stop me from visiting and paying my respect at GW Cemeteries.

BPJ

[ph0ebus]

Sorry Daniel - I knew I should have read the whole thread properly !!

No worries! I am just glad someone else read it and saw the value in it, as I did.

I should also add, given that no one else has mentioned doing it, that I have written to Wade Davis about his statements in his new book and I eagerly await his response.

-Daniel

[richardIII]

I find it hard to believe what is being said about some cemeteries in Belgium being regarded as parks by the locals. I remember a topic some months ago about a British person being torn off a strip by a Belgian lady (who I believe had a link with the CWGC) for having an alcoholic drink and acting disrespectfully in the Ramparts Cemetery at Ypres. It transpired in that topic that, from memory, the King of the Belgians had passed a law banning drinking etc. in war cemeteries. So it now transpires that some Belgians possibly don't know their own laws. Very strange. I say this not to be contraversial and critisize the Belgian people but to contrast the two apparent attitudes held at St Juian Cemetery and the Ramparts cemetery.

Richard

[Doc2]

Well, I can't comment in general, and I obviously don't know all the same people in Vlaams as have been discussed, but I'd like to say something in favor of the Belgians. I go around to lots of cemeteries, and have frequently been most impressed with the care given to the CWGC graves by the local Belgian populace. This is especially the case in the small community cemeteries with only one or a few CWGC graves. Often, these are the most well-cared for and beflowered graves in the cemetery. And I have had numerous Belgians come up to me while I am photographing and tell me how much they remember and appreciate those who are buried there. I'm going to keep out of the hot discussion, but will just mention that I have met lots of Belgians who very much respect the graves. Doc

[Muerrisch]

May we have a French view please?

Meanwhile I am grateful for the links and, like others, will pursue them.

[Scotty]

Pals,

This document comes from a file held by the National Archives of Australia. The file seems to have been originally generated by negative reports in the Australian press in 1921 regarding the winding down of the Australian involvement in locating and recovering AIF graves.It would seem that there most certainly was a nominal fee paid to the finders of remains and there was most certainly concerns regarding fraud. So much so that the suggestion of increasing the reward as an incentive was withdrawn on the basis that this would only increase the fraud. Concerns were also raised when the French military withdrew it's exhumation work. This led to a period where fees for the discovery of graves were paid to the reconstruction gangs. This may be the the period where fraud increased and the legend of empty cemeteries began. This document shows just how much effort was still given to the recovery of the fallen in late 1921. All a hoax? Tripe. Scotty

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... is the point about "a very large percentage" just speculation on your part or do you have CWGC details?

Roger - sometimes CWGC cemetery write-ups give you specific information, or a clue, but largely I believe that you can make reasoned judgements about cemetery layouts and burial patterns on the basis of common sense and a knowledge of the circumstances in the area of the cemetery when the burials were made.

Compare “front line” cemeteries such as Bois Carre at Haisnes, and then Ninth Avenue just a few hundred yards away. Both created in very active battle zones. One immediately looks “right” with regards to the headstones being located in positions relevant to the burials, the other clearly isn’t. At Ninth Avenue the symmetrical and neatly laid-out headstones are symbolic of the 45 burials, the remains are in one single grave infront of the Cross of Sacrifice. Compare that layout to Bois Carre.

Without positive evidence about any specific cemetery it is impossible to state definitely that “what you see is what you get”, or not, but reasonably applied common sense will probably stand you in good stead. Arrow straight rows and inch perfect headstone spacing were never achieved in forward battlefield conditions, - far from it, and often "far" was a long way indeed.

In post-war concentration cemeteries the “problems” are of a different nature, and happenings in far from the front CCS and Stationary Hospital cemeteries such as the two communal cemetery extensions at Doullens (mentioned earlier in this topic) can in no way be compared to circumstances in the forward and concentration cemeteries. (How many “Known Unto God” burials are there at Doullens ? Answer that question and other issues should illuminate themselves).

Tom

[Guest]

Mike

[Muerrisch]

at last some facts gentlemen, later today I will try some Dutch-English translation.