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Remembered Today:

War cemeteries a sham?


daggers

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Im finding this thread rather distressing. Im now wondering if my soldier relatives graves which i have visited , and lovingly placed flowers, crosses etc, and wept over, has been a total waste of time. My Nan and Great Nan also visted these graves on September the 24th 1924. (i have a postcard which proves this). I not really sure if i can go back to a cwgc cemetery anymore. :(

Regards Frances

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I will email the Flemish historian tonight and hope to either get an answer soon or maybe can convince him to respond directly here

I also cannot put my finger on documented proof and would like to see something likewise for confirmation.

Frances:

Try to not be overly concerned. Your men do indeed have marked graves and they also have personal headstones. How far away and in which direction they rest in peace from the stone however is another story but most will be very close without doubt.

*Unless indicated at the top of the headstone and not to be confused with Memorial stones however.

Chris

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I think Keith put his finger on it when he reminds us that many men did not want to return home after the war but decided to stay on as gardeners to be with their 'mates'. There is no way they would have been part of such a large scale fraud to represent individual graves if they weren't really there.

It doesn't take much imagination to realise that even if there was only a one percent error rate in the identifications and burials, every headstone does not truely accurately reflect that the body is squarely under the headstone.

Richard

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I also cannot put my finger on documented proof and would like to see something likewise for confirmation.

Frances:

Try to not be overly concerned. Your men do indeed have marked graves and they also have personal headstones. How far away and in which direction they rest in peace from the stone however is another story but most will be very close without doubt.

*Unless indicated at the top of the headstone and not to be confused with Memorial stones however.

Chris

I have contacted the Flemish resident now and await answer.

Chris, why did you delete the first sentence in your original posting please?

I have also heard of the above situation however, I also canot put my finger on documented proof and would like to see something likewise for confirmation.

Frances:

Try to not be overly concerned. Your men do indeed have marked graves and they also has personal headstones. How far away and in which direction they rest in peace from the stone however is another story but most will be very close without doubt.

*Unless indicated at the top of the headstone and not to be confused with Memorial stones however.

Chris

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Remember that the headstones today are placed within straight concrete troughs.

Burials within battleield cemeteries especially will have been haphazard to say the least and may have been interupted by barrage. Burial teams will have simply got on with it with the result that markers fell over and were replaced or just not placed true.

Later IWGC cemetery constructions will have been done as accurately as possible but to have ensured that every headstone will be at the head of every buried soldier is simply not possible! We need to get real here.

I am comfortable that close enough is acceptable as per official commemoration achievements.

Sorry Egbert, my spelling was/is attrocious and I omited it by default. Thank you for highlighting the fact!

The CWGC is indeed a remarkable and great organisation. Salute!

Chris

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Frances please do not be concerned I have not seen any evidence that the cemeteries are anything other than what they are cemeteries. Sadly it is all too easy for people to spread unfounded rumours. That is what this is. I am beginning to find it more than distressing and unless anyone has any factual evidence it would seem to me that it would be best to ignore rumour mongers.

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This thread has now become distressing to some folk - because of something that is no more than a few fanciful stories passed down the line. Of course, there may be some headstones a metre or two from the actual burial site, but to suggest most are "empty" is absolute bolloc*s.

Roger (angry)

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If the cemeteries are mere memorial gardens with headstones commemorating men whose bodies are not there, who/what do all the 'Known Unto God' headstones refer to, and why don't all the men named on memorials to the missing have headstones in cemeteries too? Are the German cemeteries empty too? The French and the Belgians moved and concentrated many of them themselves, so they must be in on the deception as well.

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I am beginning to find it more than distressing.

Well said Padre. Me too.

Roger

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I have posted on onother forum

http://ypres1917.3.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=1026&st=0&

Imperial War Graves letters and grave records of a local lad buried in Lijssenthoek. When you visit that place with all of its graves showing internments on almost a daily basis then you realise that ours and other nations soldiers were buried there.

Bernard

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The French and the Belgians moved and concentrated many of them themselves, so they must be in on the deception as well.

This alone is proof enough to me. It would mean they had dug up nothing for many years, only to rebury nothing in newly made cemeteries. Find it (too) hard to believe.

Roel

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Sure we are discussing 2 different aspects here. Personally I do not believe at all that the graves are empty- that is total nonsense.

I only refer to the hear say that German dead after 1918 were daclared as British by local Flemish people to receive a bounty.

While I have not received an answer from my Flemish friend, I asked the same question in the flemish forum and follow the discussions here and there with great interest:

My link

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I have had a look at the link you provide I don't regard a story told to someone by their grandfather as evidence of anything.. Family tales are notoriously inaccurate. You may not have said the graves were empty but did intimate that there was fraudulent activity. Before making such allegations I would have thought you required better "evidence" than this.

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I have had a look at the link you provide I don't regard a story told to someone by their grandfather as evidence of anything.. Family tales are notoriously inaccurate. You may not have said the graves were empty but did intimate that there was fraudulent activity. Before making such allegations I would have thought you required better "evidence" than this.

Read my initial post again and chose the right words.

And - I cannot help you if your own family's tales are notoriously inaccurate, but try to avoid generalizations.

Well if you can not bear the just beginning discussion about likely falsely declaring dead soldier's nationalities and subsequently being buried on CWGC's, I am ready to stop posting here and go along with this very same subject in the French and Flemish forum. I am interested in this subject very much and want to understand better. But I do take care about British feelings that might be hurt by reading Flemish (so far) aural sources. Those who are interested in this matter can follow the discussion in the said fori.

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I repeat these various myths would indicate a cover up on a massive scale and a level of dishonesty which I would find hard to countenance. Additionally many of the original gardeners and caretakers were ex Tommies, I simply cannot believe they would be involved in a conspiracy which some of these tales imply.

Amen.

Conspiracy theorists should ask themselves W H Y anyone would bother to create such a massively expensive sham at a time when the UK was desperately impoverished and facing financial ruin. I can, for example, believe in the "moon landing hoax" because I can see why it might have been expedient [not that I disbelieve the moon landing] but there is absolutely no sense in WIDESPREAD faking.

30 years ago I shared rum out of a battered tin mug with the resident CWGC man at Bedford House in his "office", an old ice-house. He regaled me with his tales, and showed me remains yet to be re-interred, bones only, in suitcase-size cardboard boxes ..... he explained they only needed to be big enough for the largest bones. He had been on site since the end of WW II, he said.

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Good Evening All.

Previous Place of Burial

2.B.14 Sgt C T K Rendell 24th Royal Fusiliers (City of London) 57c.I.32.c.8.0.

2.B.15 Unknown Pte Ox&Bucks Light Infantry. ...............

2.B.16 Unknown Pioneer 1/8th Royal Scots. ...............

2.B.17 Unknown Pioneer 1/8th Royal Scots. ...............

2.B.18 Unknown L/Cpl (Signaller)1/8th Royal Scots (1 wound stripe)...............

2.B.19 Pte W, Watson.1/8th Royal Scots. ...............

2.B.20 Unknown Pioneer S.W.B. ...............

2.C.1 Unknown Pte. ...............

2.C.2 Unknown Pte. ...............

2.C.3 Unknown Pte. ...............

2.C.4 Pte J, Holding 77th Field Amb R.A.M.C. ...............

2.c.5 Unknown Pte (Signaller)H.L.I.(Mons Ribbon,M.M Ribbon) ............... I Beleive this man to be Thomas Houston 2nd Bn H.L.I. am still working on this.

2.C.6 Unknown Cpl Royal Fusiliers (City of London). ............... I Beleive this man to be Walter Glew 24th Bn Royal Fusiliers.

2.C.8 Unknown Gunner R.A. ...............

2.c.9 Unknown Pte R.A.S.C. ............... This man im sure was attached to the 2nd Ox& Bucks.

2.C.10 Unknown Pte (Signaller). ...............

2.C.11 Unknown Sgt. ...............

2.C.12 Unknown Pte Royal Fusiliers (City of London)(1 wound stripe).............. I Beleive this man to be William Cunningham.24th Bn Royal Fusiliers.

2.C.13 Unknown Pte Royal Fusiliers (City of London)(2 Good Conduct badges,2 wound stripes,Mons Ribbon). I beleive this man to be Henry J Morrell 24th Bn Royal Fusiliers.

2.C.16 Unknown Pte Gordon Highlanders ...............

2.C.17 Unknown Pte Cheshire Regt ...............

2.C.18 Unknown Cpl South Staffs ...............

All these men were found in a small mass grave probably buried by the Germans at the map location mentioned and have been reburied in Bancourt Cemetery used as a Concentration Cemetery nearly all were killed on the 23/24th March 1918 and were found in October 1919 are you suggesting that they may not be in Bancourt Cemetery inspite of the strict proceedure carried out by the chaps that searched the battlefields for remains, for instance 5 bodies to a wagon covered in a UnionJack, a man following behind for obvious reasons.A very intresting but sad subject if true nearly 10 years research down the swanny.The list of remains were given to me by the C.W.G.C.and also shows what was foundon some of the remains.intrested to see if anybody comes up with the same names as me or can put a name to any of the others.look forward to you comments.

Best Regards Andy.

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Chris, Keith and Roger. I thank you for trying to reasure me. I do think that people really should not write things without real evidence. It is distressing,but, also rather cruel and unkind to say these things. I researched and found my Gt Uncles, and visited their graves. I was so relieved that they had been `found`, my parents were happy, simply because no one since 1924 had visited them. I have their Medals and Photos of them on my walls. Im hoping to vist them again if not this year definetly next.

After all these years i really cannot believe that the CWGC, would upkeep all these cemetaries if they are empty, its a stupid and serious allergation to make (imo).

Please stop scaremongering and causing upset and heartbreak, well to me anyway.

Regards Frances :,,(

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Those who are interested in this matter can follow the discussion in the said fori.

Don't expect a stampede of interest unless your Flemish chums can come up with something rather more substantial and far-reaching evidentially than local tittle tattle.

George

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Frances I am sure you can visit these graves with confidence. The fallen were buried with care by those who also fought or were certainly of the same generation. As I said earlier the first gardeners were old soldiers who were proud to care for their fallen comrades. The CWGC (Initially the IWGC) was founded by Fabian Ware specifically ensure that the fallen had a respected burial place. I cannot conceive that they organised any kind of fraud and such suggestions are nonsense. May they continue to rest in peace.

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A relative of mine, an old Regular who had served in the Boer War and WW1, re-enlisted in January 1920, at the age of 48, specifically to join the 47th Battalion Royal Fusiliers. The Battalion was raised in 1919 as an Exhumation and Grave Registration Battalion.

In August 1920 he was discharged as medically unfit. As taken from his service record; "Bronchitis, attack developed after exposure to cold and wet and effluvium of exhumation when on duty in Belgium." "Classic signs of chronic bronchitis and early stages of emphysema." He died a couple of years later.

Maybe he wasted his time and his life?

Phil

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The following was copied at TNA last week.

post-108-0-65998100-1327445792.jpg

post-108-0-79026800-1327445822.jpg

This is not a black & white subject.

Tom

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Someone with the proper training and expertise doing some random sampling with ground penetrating radar equipment should be able to ascertain just how deep this rabbit hole might go.

That said, it does not address egbert's point about who may be buried in occupied graves. However, I am not one who holds any affections for conspiracy theories, so the notion of some century-old, massive funereal fraud to me is on its face preposterous.

-Daniel

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Someone with the proper training and expertise doing some random sampling with ground penetrating radar equipment should be able to ascertain just how deep this rabbit hole might go.

That said, it does not address egbert's point about who may be buried in occupied graves. However, I am not one who holds any affections for conspiracy theories, so the notion of some century-old, massive funereal fraud to me is on its face preposterous.

-Daniel

my thoughts exactly, in regards to the possibility of emptiness below the headstones. As I read through this topic, I had mixed feelings. In the end I personally believe it's all a load of crap. Not a chance the whole thing is a hoax.

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my thoughts exactly, in regards to the possibility of emptiness below the headstones. As I read through this topic, I had mixed feelings. In the end I personally believe it's all a load of crap. Not a chance the whole thing is a hoax.

I would like to see someone who is vexed enough by this allegation politely press the author for his evidence. Or his publisher, for that matter, as I would assume they had some responsibility for vetting out what he wrote?

I would like folks to hear from who may have information on what egbert was talking about weigh in. I found this article (with references) and wanted to hear folks' thoughts about it:

Clearing the Dead by Peter E. Hodgkinson

-Daniel

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I should also like to see evidence that there are cemeteries with no bodies.

Although it hasn't happened often, there are recorded cases of graves in CWGC cemeteries being opened. In each case, a body was found.

The exhumations of the Canadian Unknown Soldier, the Australian Unknown Soldier and the New Zealand Unknown Warrior all resulted in remains being found (in recent times) in "Known Unto God" graves.

In 1923, when the headstones had already been erected, three graves were opened in Doullens Cemetery Extension No. 2 because there was strong evidence that the soldiers buried in two of the graves were not those named on the headstones. This proved to be the case and it was possible to identify the remains. One of the wrongly-recorded men was found to be buried in the next grave along, which was also opened. The other is now commemorated on the Arras Memorial to the Missing. (This man's father was present at the exhumation and agreed that the body in the grave was not that of his son). The point is - three graves opened and three bodies found.

Of course, three unknown soldiers and three graves at Doullens don't make a whole cemetery. Was there a whole cemetery dug up, resulting in larger numbers of bodies being found?

There are two that immediately come to mind. In the Ploegsteert area two wartime cemeteries had been started in the grounds of Rosenberg Chateau. By 1930 they were well established as Rosenberg Chateau and Rosenberg Chateau Extension cemeteries. In that year, the IWGC was asked to close the cemeteries and move the burials to another location as the owner of the chateau had decided to rebuild it as his family home and did not want the two cemeteries on his land. In spite of the Le Havre agreement of 1917, which is the agreement by which the Belgian Government undertook to acquire land from its owners so that British cemeteries could be made permanent, the landowner insisted on his legal right to have all of his former lands restored to him.

As a result, 477 men from the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand were exhumed and reburied in their present resting-places, Plots II and III of the Berks Cemetery Extension, near to Ploesgteert Memorial to the Missing. Could this all have been a massive deception which has fooled us ever since? I don't think so.

Tom

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