WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[MikeyH]

Lancs,

The surviving Subsidy Plaque was of rectangular format around 8" x 6", with a central 'crest' as shown in your #4072. A space at the bottom (blank) for the vehicle number. I suspect it may have been for a manufacturer, as a very nice 'crisp' casting. Was unable to take a photo.

The point was also made, that generally German vehicles had windscreens and better driver protection from the elements. Although I think that would have been a mixed blessing as the glass would have been plate glass presumably, not toughened, with subsequent hazards upon shattering.

Also apparently many had electric starters, as opposed to the starting handles on our vehicles.

Regards,

Mike.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Lancs,

The surviving Subsidy Plaque was of rectangular format around 8" x 6", with a central 'crest' as shown in your #4072. A space at the bottom (blank) for the vehicle number. I suspect it may have been for a manufacturer, as a very nice 'crisp' casting. Was unable to take a photo.

Mike,

Many thanks for the confirmation, and based on what you had said, I suspected it was the War Department's ornate brass ' Subsidized by the War Department - Mechanical Transport ' plaque as shown in post #4072, which was presented to those vehicle manufacturers providing motor vehicles to the War Department under the WD Subsidy Scheme.

The number at the bottom of the plaque, was the manufacturer's I/D number or their subsidy scheme membership number.

These 8 x 6 inch ornate plaques are probably quite rare, and would have been proudly displayed in the factory, the MD's office or at the manufacturer's main vehicle showroom.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

There is another equally rare War Department Subsidy Scheme ' Lorry Owner's ' brass badge, which is much smaller than the large 8 x 6 inch brass plaque.

This brass badge, was very similar in design to the early ' AA ' membership badge, or the various types of motorcar owner's club badges which were displayed attached to motor vehicles, and were very popular at that time.

The War Department's Subsidy Scheme for petrol-driven lorries, was introduced in September 1911, and under this WD ' Subsidy Scheme ', private owners of petrol-driven lorries, whose vehicles conformed to and met the strict uniform standards and design specifications imposed by the terms of the Subsidy Scheme, could register their lorry with the WD.

The objective of the WD's Subsidy Scheme being, to have a substantial number of petrol-driven lorries of a particular uniform design specification, in excellent working condition, immediately available to the WD for their exclusive use in the event of a national emergency.

In return for successfully registering their petrol-driven lorry with the WD's Subsidy Scheme, the lorry owner received an initial subsidy payment of 15 pounds for a ' Live-axle ' lorry, 10 pounds for a ' Chain-drive ' lorry, where the chain-drive was encased, and 8 pounds for a ' Chain-drive ' lorry where the chain-drive was exposed. These differing amounts in the subsidy payments, reflecting the estimated variation in maintenance running costs between the different types of lorries.

Thereafter, the lorry owner would also receive an annual subsidy payment of 15 pounds paid half-yearly, for up to 3 years.

In exchange for receiving these subsidy payments from the WD, the lorry owner undertook to keep their lorry fully maintained, regularly serviced, garaged, available for immediate WD inspection, and in the event of a national emergency, as determined by the WD, immediately surrender their lorry to the WD for their exclusive use.

That is why, there are often photographs of privately owned commercial lorries, many still in their civilian commercial liveries, being driven by British troops in France and Belgium at the outset of WW1, these lorries having been surrendered by their owners to the WD under the terms of the WD Subsidy Scheme's national emergency obligations,

Also, as a result of the introduction of the WD's 1911 Subsidy Scheme, we see British commercial vehicle manufacturers deliberately designing and producing lorries which already conformed with and met the strict uniform design specifications and standards of the WD's petrol-driven lorry Subsidy Scheme.

Those private owners of petrol-driven lorries whose vehicles were registered with the War Department's Subsidy Scheme, could purchase a distinct brass badge, which they could then display on their vehicle to show that it was registered with the War Department under the WD Subsidy Scheme.

This brass badge was a in the shape of an eight spoked lorry wheel, in the centre of which was the King George V Royal Coat of Arms, and around the edge of the wheel's rim was the impressed wording " Subsidised by the War Department ".

At the bottom of the badge, was a fixing plate with 2 holes, so that the badge could be attached to the lorry.

This WD Subsidy Scheme lorry owner's brass badge, an example of which is held by the Imperial War Museum, is extremely rare.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

It was extremely important that RFC/RAF aircraft mechanics were skilled in the removal, repair and restoration of all types of aircraft engines, and again, in this photograph taken in the Summer of 1918 at the then RAF Aerodrome and aircraft maintenance and repair depot at Rang-du-Fliers, we see RAF mechanics removing the typically smaller ' Rotary ' aircraft engine from a wrecked aircraft fuselage, so that rotary aero engine can be evaluated, and if at all possible repaired, restored and returned back into service as soon as possible.

Also of note, is the specially designed ' tub ' with the cut-out sides, designed to keep the rotary engine in place when lowered onto it.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Rotary ' aircraft engine, the type shown being removed by RAF mechanics in the previous post.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

In return for successfully registering their petrol-driven lorry with the WD's Subsidy Scheme, the lorry owner received an initial subsidy payment of 15 pounds for a ' Live-axle ' lorry.....

Interesting topic.

OK.

So the Government had a pool of lorries ready to go in August 1914.

But wasn't it a big risk for the lorry owners to join such a scheme, knowing that when the crunch came, they would lose their transport for the duration?

The price of a lorry must have been several hundreds of pounds at that time.

£10 pa compensation doesn't strike me as a particularly good deal for the lorry owner.

Was there any other incentive, or was it a case that the government would requisition the lorries in any event, whether they were subsidised or not, and it was a case of getting something rather than nothing?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

But wasn't it a big risk for the lorry owners to join such a scheme, knowing that when the crunch came, they would lose their transport for the duration?

The price of a lorry must have been several hundreds of pounds at that time.

£10 pa compensation doesn't strike me as a particularly good deal for the lorry owner.

Was there any other incentive, or was it a case that the government would requisition the lorries in any event, whether they were subsidised or not, and it was a case of getting something rather than nothing?

Firstly, back in 1911/12 at the start of the WD Subsidy Scheme, I am not sure if too many private lorry owners entering into the Subsidy Scheme were looking that far ahead, or even foresaw the outbreak of WW1, or their lorry actually being requisitioned by the WD, and even when it happened, many lorry owners may have felt that it was the patriotic thing to do, that the war would be over by Christmas, and their lorry would be promptly returned back to them.

As it was, at the outbreak of WW1, and with the WD Subsidy Scheme having been running for just 3 short years, only some 700 private lorries were available to the WD under the Subsidy Scheme, and with some 1000 commercial lorries and 300 buses needing to be shipped across to France following the outbreak of WW1, that shortfall in the required number of vehicles came by way of the WD requistioning lorries from lorry owners who were not in the WD Subsidy Scheme.

Fortunately, British lorry manufacturers, many of whom had already being producing Lorries to WD uniform standards and specifications as required by the Subsidy Scheme, were able to quickly switch their full lorry production to meet WD demands, and the WD's need for the requisitioning of private lorries soon diminished.

Regards,

LF

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thanks LF.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks LF.

I have posted these photographs before, they show various private commercial vehicles requisitioned by the War Department at the outbreak of WW1 and sent to France and Belgium.

The Waring & Gillow Dennis lorry is parked outside Cloth Hall in Ypres.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A WD requisitioned ' Lonsdale & Adshead Macclesfield Brewery ' lorry following an Army staff car, somewhere in France at the outbreak of WW1.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Dennis ' flatbed lorry, seen leading a convoy of requisitioned private commercial vehicles.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[phil@basildon]

A ' Dennis ' flatbed lorry, seen leading a convoy of requisitioned private commercial vehicles.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

The Dennis looks as if it has a 'demountable' body. At weekends and public holidays the lorry body would be swapped for a charabanc body hence the coach-built cab.

[phil@basildon]

Attended a very interesting talk today on 'Motorised Transport of the Great War'. This organised by the Friends of our local Museum.

The presenter had an extremely rare item, a brass subsidy plaque (unused and unissued) as fitted to vehicles purchased under the Subsidy Scheme in the years leading up to 1914.

One fact that emerged was the vast majority of the vehicles used were right hand drive, regardless of their country of origin.

Also that apparently practically no examples survive of German or Prussian vehicles of the period.

Mike.

The Austro-Hungarian empire drove on the left as did many of the country's that it split into, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary for example. It was only when those countrys where occupied by Hitlers troops that the rule was forcibly changed. Hitler also did the same in the Channel Isles but they reverted to the left hand rule after the war.

[Uncle George]

This photograph is captioned "CIVILIAN LORRIES REQUISITIONED UNDER THE 'SUBSIDY SCHEME' ". It is to be found in R. Money Barnes' 'The British Army of 1914' (1968).

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph is captioned "CIVILIAN LORRIES REQUISITIONED UNDER THE 'SUBSIDY SCHEME' ". It is to be found in R. Money Barnes' 'The British Army of 1914' (1968).

Many thanks for the photograph, which I had not seen before.

This photograph, aptly shows the wide range in types of commercial vehicles which were urgently pressed into service at the outbreak of WW1.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Dennis looks as if it has a 'demountable' body. At weekends and public holidays the lorry body would be swapped for a charabanc body hence the coach-built cab.

Phil,

The Dennis' bodywork does seem of exceptional quality, and not matching with the flatbed.

Regards,

LF

[Uncle George]

Many thanks for the photograph, which I had not seen before.

LF

There are a number of photographs in Barnes' 'The British Army of 1914' which may interest you: 'MOTOR AMBULANCES'; 'ROLLS ARMOURED CAR WITH VICKERS GUN. R.N.A.S'; 'MECHANICAL TRANSPORT'; 'AVRO 500. 50 h.p. GNOME ENGINE'. I can post these photographs if you wish.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Again, showing the wide range of skills RAF mechanics were required to have when working on the various types of aircraft encountered at the RAF maintenance and repair depot at Rang-du-Fliers, in the following 2 photographs, we see a Rolls-Royce ' Eagle ' aero engine which had previously been removed from a damaged aircraft, then fully repaired and restored, and is now being tested while mounted on a special wheeled engine test carriage.

Following successful testing, the restored aero engine would have been placed back into service.

The massive size of the 900 lb V-12 Rolls-Royce ' Eagle ' engine, being in stark contrast to the rotary engine shown in post #4079.

The Roll-Royce ' Eagle ' aero engine was the first aero engine to be developed and manufactured by Rolls-Royce, and was based on their highly successful ' Silver Ghost ' motorcar engine, with the Eagle's engine modified to a V-12 configuration.

The first Rolls-Royce ' Eagle ' engine ran on a test bed at their Derby works in February 1915, with the Eagle's first flight taking place in December 1915 fitted in a Handley Page 0/100 bomber.

The Eagle's V-12 piston, liquid cooled engine, was by 1918 producing 360 hp @ 1800 rpm, with a fuel consumption of 24 gallons per hour.

The RR Eagle aero engine had a dry weight of 900 lbs, was 72.6 inches long, 42.6 inches wide, with a height of 46.4 inches.

Between 1915 to 1928, 4681 Roll-Royce ' Eagle ' aero engines were manufactured.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Attempting to turn the propeller to start the ' Eagle ' engine.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

There are a number of photographs in Barnes' 'The British Army of 1914' which may interest you: 'MOTOR AMBULANCES'; 'ROLLS ARMOURED CAR WITH VICKERS GUN. R.N.A.S'; 'MECHANICAL TRANSPORT'; 'AVRO 500. 50 h.p. GNOME ENGINE'. I can post these photographs if you wish.

Any photographs you can post, will I am sure be of interest to the followers of this Thread.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Two interesting details from the photograph in post #4094 ( marked with the arrows ), an RAF guard with a shouldered rifle, and also what appears to be a German P.O.W., walking with his hands behind his back. Presumably, the armed guard is escorting the P.O.W (s).

We know, that German P.O.Ws were put to work at British depots and bases.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The massive Handley Page 0/100 Bomber, powered by twin Rolls-Royce ' Eagle ' engines which made their maiden-flight in December 1915.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

To illustrate the comparison in size, a Handley Page 0/100 Bomber is shown alongside a Bristol Scout aircraft.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

Not dated and no location given. A Daimler lorry and trailer transporting two Sopwith float planes.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not dated and no location given. A Daimler lorry and trailer transporting two Sopwith float planes.

Johnboy,

Great photograph.

Those are Sopwith ' Schneider ' floatplanes developed from the ' Schneider ' racing planes of Schneider Cup fame, and were in service with both the RFC and the Royal Naval Air Service ( RNAS ) at the start of WW1.

Those Sopwith Schneiders, Nos.1568 & 3714 were photographed in late June 1915, parked in Canbury Park Road, Kingston-upon-Thames, Surrey, opposite the old Roller Skating Rink, which at the start of WW1 was used by Sopwith for aircraft production.

The Daimler and it's trailer are carrying a complete shipment of 2 aircraft, their engines, spare floats, crated propellers and ground handling wheels

It was reported, that by 3rd July, 1915 both those Sopwith Schneider floatplanes were delivered to their respective new RNAS bases, No.1568 going to RNAS Yarmouth and No.3714 going to RNAS Felixstowe.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.