WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A fine example of a ' Scott ' 1914 motorcycle.

Note the Scott's very distictive ' V ' frame construction minus the crossbar, with the petrol tank fixed to the rear frame bar, which places the petrol tank between the rider's knees.

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A 1913 ' Scott ' motorcycle side-car combination, the forerunner of the 1915 ' Scott ' British Army's Motorcycle and Machine Gun Carrier combination.

Again, we see the Scott's ' V ' frame construction minus the crossbar, and the petrol tank located between the rider's knees.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I just noticed that the rider on the fine looking and very nicely equipped 1913 ' Scott ' motorcycle and side-car combination shown in post # 4002, is non-other than the founder and then owner of the Scott Motorcycle Company, Alfred Angas Scott.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An extremely interesting photograph, giving us a seldom seen complete and detailed view of the British Army's ' Scott ' 486 cc rear wheel chain-drive Motorcycle and Vickers Machine Gun Carrier combination, as issued to the Motor Machine Gun Corps on the Flanders Front in early 1915.

Note the front mudguard plate, marked O.H.M.S. ( On His Majesty's Service ), and also the same ' V ' frame construction minus the crossbar, with the petrol tank attached to the rear frame bar as in the civilian version.

This IWM photograph captions the Scott motorcycle as being 486 cc., with other references also detailing the Scott military motorcycle as being 522 cc.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here is a particularly important photograph for several reasons, firstly, its shows a British Army ' Scott ' motorcycle and Vickers machine gun combination seen from the opposite side view to that shown in the previous post # 4004, and it gives us excellent details of both the Scott military motorcycle and it's Vickers machine gun.

Note the very distinctive ' Scott ' frame/front fork domed joint, and also the front engine cover/protector, which ran from the domed frame/front fork joint to the base of the engine.

Again, as in post #4004, the Scott's front mudguard plate is marked ' O.H.M.S. '

This photograph, also shows the Scott's rider as being a Staff Sergeant ( Crown above 3 chevrons ) in the Motor Machine Gun Service ( see his cap badge and MMGS early cloth shoulder title ) confirming the Motor Machine Gun Service were issued with

' Scott ' motorcycle Vickers machine gun carriers during WW1.

We can also date this photograph as having being taken early in WW1, sometime in March 1915, with the location being the town of Ypres on the Flanders Front.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Further details of the Motor Machine Gun Service Staff Sergeant shown riding the ' Scott ' motorcycle Vickers machine gun combination in the previous post # 4005.

Note his Motor Machine Gun Service cap badge, and his early cloth ' Motor Machine Gun Service ' cloth shoulder title ( see attached ).

Sitting on the Vickers machine gun, is the MMGS' adopted puppy mascot.

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Andrew Upton]

If those last two photos were indeed taken in March 1915, then they are not Machine Gun Corps as such (which wasn't formed until October of that year) but the earlier Motor Machine Guns Service. This was formed in very late 1914, and absorbed into the MGC on its formation. The Sergeants embroidered shoulder title (Motor Machine Guns) and cap badge (King's Crown over crossed Vickers guns over MMG) would support this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Machine_Gun_Service

http://www.regimentalbadges.com/upload/images/shopprod/10607/motor-machine-guns-rare-ww1-cloth-title_10607_main_size3.jpg

http://militarybadgecollection.com/wp-content/gallery/war-raised-units-1914/KK%201155,%20Motor%20Machine%20Gun%20Sorps.JPG

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Andrew,

Many thanks for the information pointing out the typo error which I shall edit, however, the previous post #4004 correctly refers to the ' Motor Machine Guns Corps ' as being issued with the ' Scott ' motorcycle Vickers machine gun carriers on the Flanders Front in March 1915.

In fact, I had also prepared a photo of the early Motor Machine Guns Corps cloth shoulder title as worn by the Staff Sergeant for posting.

I shall also be posting, another series of photographs all showing members of the Motor Machine Guns Corps with their ' Scott ' motorcycles operating in and around Ypres in early 1915.

Regards,

LF

[Grovetown]

If those last two photos were indeed taken in March 1915, then they are not Machine Gun Corps as such (which wasn't formed until October of that year) but the earlier Motor Machine Guns Service. This was formed in very late 1914, and absorbed into the MGC on its formation. The Sergeants embroidered shoulder title (Motor Machine Guns) and cap badge (King's Crown over crossed Vickers guns over MMG) would support this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Machine_Gun_Service

http://www.regimentalbadges.com/upload/images/shopprod/10607/motor-machine-guns-rare-ww1-cloth-title_10607_main_size3.jpg

http://militarybadgecollection.com/wp-content/gallery/war-raised-units-1914/KK%201155,%20Motor%20Machine%20Gun%20Sorps.JPG

Good link here Andrew regarding the Motor Machine Gun Service, and how it morphed into the Machine Gun Corps (Motors) here:

http://www.1914-1918.net/mmg.htm

And then how the MGC(M) formed the backbone of Heavy Section and so on.

Cheers,

GT.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

GT,

Thank you for posting that link to the very interesting information on the Motor Machine Gun Service, which also seems to clear up a question relating to the MMGS cloth shoulder title.

The cloth shoulder title reads ' MOTOR MACHINE GUNS ' which based on the information in the Long, Long Trail link, seems to indicate that the ' S ' in the cloth title stands for ' SERVICE ', rather than a plural ' GUNS '.

In the upcoming posts, I can now refer to the ' Motor Machine Gun Service '.

Appreciate the information.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph dated in March 1915, shows men of the Motor Machine Gun Service along with their ' Scott ' motorcycle Vickers machine gun combinations, assembled outside the Poperinghe Church in the town of Poperinghe which was some 7 miles due West of the town of Ypres in the West Flanders region of Belgium.

This photograph also gives us good details of the uniforms worn by the men of the Motor Machine Gun Service, their weapons and equipment as used in the early part of WW1.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Men of the Motor Machine Gun Service riding their ' Scott ' motorcycles, are seen on patrol in the West Flanders region of Belgium in early 1915.

In addition to the Scott motorcycle Vickers machine gun combinations in the patrol, there is a Scott motorcycle ammunition carrier leading the patrol with one of the men riding atop.

Also of note, are the men's uniforms, including at least two men wearing the soft winter ' Trench Cap ', with their weapons including Webley revolvers, and Lee Enfield service rifles complete with .303 bandoliers.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Rockdoc]

The Scott engine is an unusual design that was intended to aid maintenance. The big-ends on the crank were overhung and were accessible through doors on each side of the crankcase. This wasn't possible on most machines because the primary chain was driven from one end of the crank. On the Scott the primary chain was between the flywheels and accessed from underneath. In use it was protected from road dirt by a thin plate.

Keith

[David Filsell]

Although the motor cycle guns are often referred to and pictured, I have never seen any reference to them being deployed or in action in any books or battle accounts. The pictures were of course of terrific publicity for the British Army's wish to appear to be applying modern technology, but does anyonehave anything at on their actual deployment and use in combat in defence or attack. Or, were they were only passing idea which never really came to anything?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although the motor cycle guns are often referred to and pictured, I have never seen any reference to them being deployed or in action in any books or battle accounts. The pictures were of course of terrific publicity for the British Army's wish to appear to be applying modern technology, but does anyonehave anything at on their actual deployment and use in combat in defence or attack. Or, were they were only passing idea which never really came to anything?

David,

The mobility of the of the then modern motorcycle was a obvious advantage to the Motor Machine Gun Service, and if you look at their WW1 memorial in London, it gives the complete picture of their WW1 service, which was fought in almost every WW1 Threatre of War, with some 1,120 Officers and 12,671 Other Ranks killed, and some 45,377 Other Ranks wounded, missing or a Prisoner of War.

Many of the Motor Machine Gun Service's actions were fought dismounted, with their Vickers machine guns having been removed from their motorcycles, with the MMGS relying on the firepower of their Vickers machine guns, and the small arms they carried for their offensive or defensive actions.

Regards,

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

2

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Men of the Motor Machine Gun Service in dismounted action, having removed their Vickers machine guns from their motorcycles.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Scott engine is an unusual design that was intended to aid maintenance. The big-ends on the crank were overhung and were accessible through doors on each side of the crankcase. This wasn't possible on most machines because the primary chain was driven from one end of the crank. On the Scott the primary chain was between the flywheels and accessed from underneath. In use it was protected from road dirt by a thin plate.

Keith

Keith,

Many thanks for the information.

Regards,

LF

[Grovetown]

Although the motor cycle guns are often referred to and pictured, I have never seen any reference to them being deployed or in action in any books or battle accounts. The pictures were of course of terrific publicity for the British Army's wish to appear to be applying modern technology, but does anyone have anything at on their actual deployment and use in combat in defence or attack. Or, were they were only passing idea which never really came to anything?

Chris Baker asserts that from late 1914 they fought 'dismounted', as conventional MG units. Although that they then reverted to a mobile, mechanised role in 1918 (as MGC(M)) in the MEF and the last 100 days' advances.

Obviously, the casualty figures cited above refer to the MGC as a whole

At the time of incorporation into the MGC, the Service numbered around 3000.

The CWGC lists 234 MGC(M) casualties - and 45 of those are post-war. Only 14 of those, for instance, are 1915 - and the scatter of dates and locations does not suggest intensive action. 1918 was harder on them, with 95 deaths, yet again quite a scatter by date and location - F&F, Basra, Baghdad, Belfast, Bedford, Delhi, Dar Es Salaam, Azerbaijan (!) and so on. No real concentrations by either reckoning (apart from a spike of 13 men from 7th and 4th Btys over a couple of days in late April).

There are approximately 1500 MICs specifying MMGS, and only 24 MGC(M) (somewhat at odds with their casualties), as a unit, yet that obviously doesn't represent their entirety at all nor give us any idea of their 'fightiness' per se.

Cheers,

GT.

[David Filsell]

Thanks, makes perfect sense.. Move fast into position and deploy guns. Are there any specific actions which are known?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Motor Machine Gun Service, in addition to using their Vickers machine guns in dismounted actions, could also if necessary fire their Vickers machine guns directly from the gun mounts attached to their Scott 486 cc twin cylinder motorcycles, as seen in the attached photograph of an MMGS unit firing on German aircraft in the West Flanders region of Belgium in early 1915.

For such high angle use of their Vickers machine gun, the top portion of the two-part gun shield was removed.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Andrew Upton]

The Motor Machine Gun Service, in addition to using their Vickers machine guns in dismounted actions, could also if necessary fire their Vickers machine guns directly from the gun mounts attached to their Scott 486 cc twin cylinder motorcycles, as seen in the attached photograph of an MMGS unit firing on German aircraft in the West Flanders region of Belgium in early 1915.

Always interesting to mention with that picture that the gun there is not a standard military issue MkI Vickers, but the earlier commercial Model 1908 "Light Pattern" Vickers that the military version was modified from. Note the short Peddie-Calochiopulo rear sight mounted on the front cover, and brass patents plaque on the rear cover where the longer military type rear sight would normally be mounted - probably a gun bought direct from Vickers and donated to the military.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Always interesting to mention with that picture that the gun there is not a standard military issue MkI Vickers, but the earlier commercial Model 1908 "Light Pattern" Vickers that the military version was modified from. Note the short Peddie-Calochiopulo rear sight mounted on the front cover, and prass patents plaque on the rear cover where the longer military type rear sight would normally be mounted - probably a gun bought direct from Vickers and donated to the military.

Andrew,

Appreciate the interesting details regarding the Vickers machine gun, which may tie in with a report that at the start of WW1 Alfred Scott ( Scott Motorcycles ) and Sir Arthur Dawson ( Vickers ) collaborated on a design for a new Scott motorcycle Vickers machine gun combination using a Scott model 1914 motorcycle powered by a 532 cc water-cooled two-stroke twin engine with a two-speed gearbox and a kick-start which was attached to a specially manufactured Vickers machine gun mount which Scott & Dawson jointly designed and patented in August 1914, and perhaps those early motorcycle machine gun combinations were equipped with those machine guns which Vickers had readily available i.e. the commercial versions you detailed.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another interesting photograph, showing men of the Motor Machine Gun Service in action near Ypres, West Flanders in March 1915.

Again, we see the Scott motorcycle Vickers machine gun combination being used in high angle anti-aircraft action against German aircraft, and looking at the design of the Vickers' rear sight, this Vickers machine gun appears to be the same model as that described in Andrew's post # 4021.

Also of note, is the Scott Ammunition Carrier motorcycle combination standing at the rear, which was designed to carry a number of Vickers ammunition boxes and other supplies, and so that a MMGS unit member could also ride atop the ammunition boxes, a seat back-rest support was fitted as can be seen in this photograph.

In addition to the Vickers Gunner, and the Scott motorcyclist acting as loader, a third member of the MMGS unit is on the ground using a tripod mounted telescope as the unit's spotter.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A rare and interesting WW1 Service Dress uniform jacket, showing the ' MOTOR MACHINE GUNS ' cloth shoulder title being worn.

This Service Dress jacket was worn by Private J. E. Beckett of the Army Service Corps (ASC) whilst attached to the 14th Light Armoured Motor Battery, Motor Machine Gun Corps, in Mesopotamia 1915-1919.

Note the jacket's plain patch breast pockets, typical of the ' Emergency/Modified Drab ' Service Dress uniform jacket.

LF

IWM UNI 12247 This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

2

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With the Motor Machine Gun Service operating in forward areas close to the Front, there was an obvious danger to both the men of the MMGS and their machines, particularly from enemy shelling.

In the attached photograph, we can see a ' Scott ' Ammunition Carrier ( left ) identified by the crossed metal framework of the motorcycle combination in which the Vickers ammunition boxes were stowed and carried, and a ' Scott ' Vickers Machine Gun Carrier, both having been destroyed by German shelling of an MMGS billet near Ypres on the West Flanders Front in early 1915.

Note the remains of the ' O.H.M.S. ' plate fixed to the rear of the ' Scott ' motorcycle on the left, this plate being in addition to the ' O.H.M.S. ' marking on the motorcycle's front mudguard.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.