WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another example of a similar camouflage pattern, shown painted on a Roll-Royce Armoured Car, stuck in the mud on the Arras-Tilloy Road.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An LGOC ( London General Omnibus Company ) B-Type London bus converted into a camouflaged mobile messenger pigeon loft, shown both in an original black & white photograph, and also in a photograph which has been coloured.

Note the B-Type's original LGOC ' B2125 ' London bus identification plate fixed to the bonnet above the painted W^D 2257 Census Number.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An LGOC ( London General Omnibus Company ) B-Type London bus converted into a camouflaged mobile messenger pigeon loft, shown in a photograph which has been coloured.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

How did the pigeons find it if it was camouflaged?!!

[johnboy]

Q from post #3950

camouflaged lorries are particularly scarce and very seldom seen.

Very good!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

camouflaged lorries are particularly scarce and very seldom seen.

Meaning, GS ( General Service ) lorries.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The WW1 W^D ' Karrier ' Lorry.

The manufacturers of the W^D WW1 ' Karrier ' Lorry, Clayton & Company ( Huddersfield ) Ltd., were originally founded in 1895 in Huddersfield, as Dixon Clayton & Company, by then business partners John George Dixon and Herbert Fitzroy Clayton.

However, in 1899 this partnership was dissolved, and Herbert Fitzroy Clayton went into business with his sons, forming two new companies, Clayton & Company ( Huddersfield ) Ltd., and Clayton & Company ( Penistone ) Ltd., and as from 1908, the Huddersfield works concentrated on manufacturing ' Karrier ' vehicles, and the Penistone works manufactured electrical equipment, specializing in railway signalling equipment.

The first ' Karrier ' lorries, known as ' A-Types ', were 50 cwt rear-wheel chain-drive lorries with 18 hp 2-cylinder ' Tylor ' engines. The ' Karrier B-Type ' followed in 1911, with the new model range offering 20 to 80 cwt. lorries with 2 or 4-cylinder ' Tylor ' engines.

In 1913, along with most other British vehicle manufacturers, Clayton & Company ( Huddersfield ) Ltd., applied to manufacture 3 and 4 ton lorries for the War Department under the War Department's ' Subsidy ' Lorry Scheme, and during WW1 Claytons manufactured some 2000 of their ' Karrier WDS ' 3-ton lorries for the War Department, with the designation ' WDS ' presumably standing for ' War Department Subsidy '.

In addition to manufacturing commercial lorries for the both the War Department and civilian use, Claytons also manufactured ' Karrier ' buses and Char-a-bancs, and it is reported that the first motorised public service vehicle to climb the steep Porlock Hill in Devon, with it's 1 in 4 gradient and sharp hairpin bends, was a ' Karrier ' 50 hp Char-a-banc carrying a full load of 21 passengers, completing the climb on 3rd June 1914.

In 1920 ' Karrier ' was sold to Sunbeam Motors, and the Huddersfield works closed.

Interestingly, the Penistone side of the Clayton business, is still in existence today as the Clayton Penistone Group, still based in Penistone.

It is rare that we are able to see a WW1 GS Lorry in it's original factory fresh pristine condition, and in this first interesting photograph, we see one of a number of ' Karrier ' WDS 3-ton W^D lorries which have only just left Clayton's factory in Huddersfield, and are lined up in a street alongside the ' Karrier ' factory awaiting delivery to the Army.

It is interesting to note, that in addition to the usual W^D bodywork markings, ' Karrier ' WDS lorries were unique in also having a ' W^D ' marking painted on the bottom of the WDS' radiator, as can be seen in this photograph.

LF

The War Archives. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The rest of those brand new ' Karrier WDS ' 3-ton W^D GS Lorries lined up in the street alongside Clayton's ' Karrier ' factory in Huddersfield, awaiting shipment to the Army.

LF

The War Archives. This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Karrier ' Char-a-banc, having the same front end/cab as the ' Karrier WDS ', with the photograph captioned as showing the Char-a-banc carrying members of the ' Unemployed Tin Miners Choir ', which ties in with the Karrier's ' AF3747 ' vehicle registration, which was issued in Turo, Cornwall.

This ' Karrier ' Char-a-banc, being the type which first negotiated Porlock Hill in 1914.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Karrier ' Lorry on the Home Front, having no W^D Census Number, and still showing it's London Vehicle Registration Number painted on the scuttle ' MC9424 ' which was issued in London N.E.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Karrier WDS ' lorry damaged by shelling, is brought into the Motor Transport Depot of 2nd A. S. C. No. 320 M. T. Coy, located at Chantiers near Dunkerque in Northern France, to either be repaired, if at all possible, or salvaged for spare parts.

With the WDS' bodywork missing, we can see some good details of the construction of the Karrier's chassis.

This photograph, is dated 20th August, 1917.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

Do you have any pics of the recovery vehicles?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Do you have any pics of the recovery vehicles?

Yes, here is an ASC Recovery Lorry towing in a lorry with a completely collapsed chassis.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[johnboy]

Thanks LF.

The pic either shows the unloading of the truck or the loading of it. I don't think that it could have been towed in that position. Possibly separating the engine and front axle from the broken chassis.

[Rockdoc]

I hope you won't mind if I step back a bit to the Italian AA gun variations. I was sent a copy of the War Diary and it was unusual in containing two photographs, one of which I reproduce here. It shows two dismounted 9-cwt guns, on their pedestals, working from dry-stone platforms in the area around Cima del Porco and Cima di Fonte - two ridges that come together behind the British lines. When I visited the area, several years ago, we were taken to the area by Forum Pal Kibe and his friend, Paolo, and we believe we found the site. You can see from my photo just how big each of the two platforms were and how much work must have been required to build them. The platforms were on the southern slope, behind the ridge where there is a line of trenches. Below these platforms we found another, smaller platform that ran the full length of these two. From the remains we guessed that it was where the offices and so on were sited.

https://flic.kr/p/y83k9Cis the photo from the Diary

https://flic.kr/p/ynjLk1is my photo of just one of the platforms.

Keith

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Thanks LF.

The pic either shows the unloading of the truck or the loading of it. I don't think that it could have been towed in that position. Possibly separating the engine and front axle from the broken chassis.

That photograph was taken at the ASC Motor Transport Depot, so the towed lorry having reached the ASC MT Depot, has now been lowered to the ground from it's previously raised towing position.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Do you have any pics of the recovery vehicles?

An ASC MRU ( Mobile Repair Unit ) operating on the Italian Front, shown recovering an Army Staff Car, also note the Breakdown Lorry's rarely seen camouflaged tarpaulin cover.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I hope you won't mind if I step back a bit to the Italian AA gun variations.

Keith,

Many thanks for posting the very interesting Italian Front information and photographs, with the photograph of the dismounted 13 pdr. 9 cwt guns being particularly interesting. The utilization of the camouflaged Mark 4 High Angle mount and the 13 pdr AA gun in such a configuration, must be extremely unusual, if not unique, and consequently rarely photographed.

Regards,

LF

[Rockdoc]

You're very welcome. I would say that the locally-produced variations we've seen from the Asiago front stem directly from the terrain, which can be both steep and rugged. The slope that these platforms were built on is very steep and there is no way that a road could have been built easily - and definitely not quickly - to accommodate two gun lorries and suitable platforms would still have been needed. The platforms pictured would have needed a lot of effort to build. The engineers would have had to blast away part of the slope and then build the dry-stone platforms from the rubble, which may well have required trimming to size. The effort that would have been needed to drive a road up that slope would have been prodigious so dismounting the guns and building these platforms would have been, IMO, the lesser of two evils.

I notice that these guns are painted with camouflage but the other example on the field-gun style mount is not. The photos must have been closely contemporary since the British and French troops did not arrive in Italy until very late in 1917 so you'd have to think that these modifications were carried out in 1918. Have you any idea of when camouflage paint began to be widely used?

Keith

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Have you any idea of when camouflage paint began to be widely used?

Keith,

Although there are earlier examples of the camouflage painting of guns and vehicles, such as on Tanks and Armoured Cars, the wider use of the camouflage painting of AA Guns and their Thornycroft and or Peerless lorries, seems to date from 1918.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Karrier WDS ' lorry on the Western Front, is seen undergoing some roadside bodywork repairs.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Another view, of that same Karrier WDS' roadside repair.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

Not sure about the suggestion of 1918 as being the date for the start of camouflage of the type pictured. A number of artists were working on camo. schemes from 1915/16 or so. There is also an obvious reflection of the well established ships' dazzle schemes on the vehicles thus far shown on the thread - not of course a direct copy, since at sea it was designed to disguise course and speed - but in disrupting the shape of the vehicle. I think these schemes are not solely a feature of 1918.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Not sure about the suggestion of 1918 as being the date for the start of camouflage

David,

You are perfectly correct, in that painted camouflage was used much earlier than 1918 especially on Tanks, and I think Keith's question and my answer, related to the camouflage painting of the 13 pdr. 9 cwt QF AA Gun and those lorries used to carry that gun, such as the Thornycroft and Peerless lorries, and it is their camouflage painting which dates from 1918.

Regards,

LF

[David Filsell]

LF

As ever I stand to be corrected, but I think you will find the introduction of disruptive pattern camouflage predates 1918. It would be interesting to see if anyone can put up dated pictures pre 18 to prove it.

David