WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[michaeldr]

Two photographs of King George V riding on the light railway which ran through the Forest of Hesdin, on 7th August 1918. The light railway's engine, is a ' Simplex ' 20 hp. Trench Tractor.

The then small village of Hesdin is located in the Nord-Pas-du-Calais region of Northern France mid-way between Montreuil-Sur-Mer to its West, and Arras to its East.

Today, Hesdin is twinned with the London Borough of Havering.

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

I remain fascinated by the length, breadth and width of your collection. The thread remains a must read for me. Incidentally can any name the red tab oat the King's side? I wondered if it was Robertson but .....

David & LF,

Sitting next to KGV in the photographs is Lord Lovat; a crop of the pic. seen in post No.2282 appears in Lovat's biography written by Sir Francis Lindley. Lovat had been appointed the Director of Forestry in late February1917 (probably effective March 1917).

regards

Michael

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sitting next to KGV in the photographs is Lord Lovat; a crop of the pic. seen in post No.2282 appears in Lovat's biography written by Sir Francis Lindley. Lovat had been appointed the Director of Forestry in late February1917 (probably effective March 1917).

Michael,

Many thanks for identifying Lord Lovat ( Brigadier-General Simon J. Fraser ) as the person sitting alongside King George V in that previous ' Simplex ' post, and it is always nice to have complete information on the photographs.

By way of a reminder, here is that original photograph of KGV sitting alongside a British General, now known to be Lord Lovat.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A front view of the Scott motorcycle Vickers machine gun combination giving good details of Vickers machine gun's armoured shield, which had both a top and bottom section, with the top half being removed when the Vickers machine gun was used for high angle anti-aircraft fire.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sitting next to KGV in the photographs is Lord Lovat;

Michael,

Following your identification of Lord Lovat, here are three other photographs of General Simon Fraser, the 14th Lord Lovat and 3rd Baron Lovat, taken at British and Canadian Forestry facilities in the Forest of Conches near the village of Conches-en-Ouche in the Upper Normandy area of Northern France.

These forests, run by the Army's Forestry Directorate, headed by General Simon Fraser ( Lord Lovat ) provided much needed timber for use by the Allies.

The first photograph, shows a jovial General Simon Fraser, Lord Lovat, ( centre ) with a group of journalists visiting the Army Forestry Directorate's forest and sawmill in the Forest of Conches.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

This photograph, shows General Simon Fraser with members of his Army Forestry Directorate staff and visiting journalists, taken at the Army Forestry Directorate's sawmill run by the Canadian Army in the Forest of Conches near the village of Conches-en-Ouche in the Upper Normandy area of Northern France. Note the Canadian ' Maple Leaf ' emblem atop the sawmill.

Also note the German Prisoners of War working in the sawmill, seen in the background.

This photograph, is dated July 22nd, 1918.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[michaeldr]

Michael,

Following your identification of Lord Lovat, here are three other photographs of General Simon Fraser, the 14th Lord Lovat and 3rd Baron Lovat.

LF,

Forgive the slip off topic, but a little more info on Lord Lovat:

Lovat's friend and biographer Lindley, has him as being the “sixteenth Lord Lovat and twenty-second Chief of the Clan Fraser”. This must be an ancient Scottish form of reckoning: I also have seen him referred to elsewhere as the 14^th Baron Lovat.

Before becoming the Director of Forestry in France in 1917, he had served the Life Guards (1894), in the South Africa war as a (Hon) Major commanding the Lovat's Scouts (1900-02)

and as a Brigadier-General he took the Highland Mounted Brigade to Gallipoli. There he was quickly overtaken by dysentery and hospitalised in Malta and then back to the UK.

In 1916 he was in command of the Second Cyclists' Division (TF) with the rank of (Temp) Major General.

Lovat must have been a bit of a 'square peg in a round hole'; the Duke of Marlborough wrote to Churchill (28 May 1916) with a long list of complaints about various aspects of the conduct of the war and amongst them he mentions “[4] Why are useless Colonels promoted to Major Generals? (vide Lovat and men like them).”

Lovat reverted to the rank of Colonel (TF) when he went to France in November 1916 to train the 'Lovat's Scouts (Sharpshooters)'.

In 1917 he found his real niche however when he was when appointed the Director of Forestry, a position where his peculiar skills came to the fore. Between 1919 & 1927 he was Chairman of the Forestry Commission.

regards

Michael

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Showing the Motor Machine Gun Service's versatility, men of the MMGS have dismounted their Scott motorcycles, and have taken up a position with their Vickers machine guns in ' The Bluff ' located behind the town of Ypres on the West Flanders Front, and again we see men of the MMGS wearing the soft winter ' Trench Cap '.

This photograph, is dated March 1915.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Forgive the slip off topic, but a little more info on Lord Lovat:

Michael,

Not at all off topic, as it is important to get as much background information as possible on these photographs.

As you say, General Simon Fraser, the 14th Lord Lovat, had an illustrious military career dating back to the South African War during which he was awarded his D.S.O.

Interestingly, his son, Simon Christopher Fraser the 15th Lord Lovat, had a equally illustrious military career during WW2, also serving in the Lovat Scouts has did is Father, and also being awarded the D.S.O., and the Military Cross for bravery during various ' Commando ' raids prior to and during the D-Day Landings.

Winston Churchill, described the 15th Lord Lovat as " The handsomest man to cut a throat ".

Regards,

LF

[Uncle George]

Lloyd George has an interesting few pages on 'The Supply of Home-Grown Timber' in his 'Memoirs' (pages 750-754). "I may say here that a great deal of timber cutting was organised in France by the late Lord Lovat, largely with labour furnished by Canadian lumbermen drawn from the Canadian Expeditionary Force in France."

https://archive.org/stream/warmemoirsvolume035284mbp#page/n785/mode/2up

[Lancashire Fusilier]

At the start of WW1, a Motor Machine Gun Service Battery/Unit in addition to being equipped with ' Scott ' motorcycles, also usually had 2 motor vehicles used as general support Tenders, carrying both men and supplies.

In the attached photograph, taken in early 1915, we see an MMGS Unit along with 2 of their ' Daimler ' support Tenders, which are parked outside Ypres Cathedral, on the Flanders Front.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Lloyd George has an interesting few pages on 'The Supply of Home-Grown Timber' in his 'Memoirs' (pages 750-754). "I may say here that a great deal of timber cutting was organised in France by the late Lord Lovat, largely with labour furnished by Canadian lumbermen drawn from the Canadian Expeditionary Force in France."

https://archive.org/stream/warmemoirsvolume035284mbp#page/n785/mode/2up

Uncle George,

Many thanks for the interesting book link, which ties in with the Canadian Army sawmill and lumber yard shown in post #4030.

Regards,

LF

[BSM]

Always good and interesting to re-visit the thread and view the new images and associated comments. A great and ongoing effort LF and others particularly with the new material consistently being introduced. To add something to the 'pot' may I suggest that the 2 box cars in #4035 are Daimlers. Cheers, Rod

[Rockdoc]

I'm always perplexed by pictures of machine guns being used for anti-aircraft work. The range of the gun is so limited as to require the plane to be flying at a very low altitude if they were to be effective. Even though planes of this period were not all that fast they did travel fast enough to make engagements quite limited in timescale, even with "proper" AA guns and their ability to change elevation and traverse quickly and accurately. Also bear in mind that the Germans in Salonika were flying reconnaissance at 20,000 feet by 1917.

If you look at the contortions needed for a member of the MMGC to raise the gun on his sidecar to the near-vertical then you can see how difficult it would be for him to track an aircraft while firing, a vital prerequisite. Another issue is the sights. You have to fire in front of a moving target and the sights of an AA gun were offset to allow for this. I can't imagine that being true of a machine gun. My gut feeling is that machine guns were largely ineffective but were useful in allowing ordinary troops to feel that they were doing something and aiding morale. I have one record from the National Archives that complains about the bullets fired by enthusiastic AA machine gunners falling onto hospitals and dumps! The solution ordered was to set up screens with the gunners only allowed to fire through the gaps, which would ensure that the bullets landed somewhere that didn't matter but there was no suggestion that the machine guns should not be used for AA work.

Keith

[David Filsell]

So Lloyd George was also Good for Wood!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Always good and interesting to re-visit the thread and view the new images and associated comments. A great and ongoing effort LF and others particularly with the new material consistently being introduced. To add something to the 'pot' may I suggest that the 2 box cars in #4035 are Daimlers. Cheers, Rod

Rod,

Many thanks for the follow up.

It is always so nice to get a good view of the radiator to help with identification ! and the reason I discounted the Daimler, is that typically/usually, they did not have wire spoked wheels fitted ? I shall look again, to try and find such a Daimler with wire spoked wheels.

Regards,

LF

[BSM]

Yes LF it always helps however in this case the lower bonnet bulge and side detail is a dead give away. There are a couple of wire wheeled Daimler ambulances on the AWM site and a number of similar box cars in circulation such as the well used image of M^314 passing Australian field kitchens in Sausage valley etc. Cheers, Rod

[Lancashire Fusilier]

M^314 passing Australian field kitchens in Sausage valley etc. Cheers, Rod

Rod,

I have the photograph of the vehicle Census No. M^314 ( attached ) travelling through Sausage Valley, and as you say, it is an excellent match. I have edited post # 4035 accordingly.

Many thanks, and again, I appreciate the follow up.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

If you look at the contortions needed for a member of the MMGC to raise the gun on his sidecar to the near-vertical then you can see how difficult it would be for him to track an aircraft while firing, a vital prerequisite. Another issue is the sights.

Keith,

As you say, not at all easy, and it may have been a case of just ' getting lead in the air ' in the hope of hitting a German aeroplane or scaring them off !

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

On the subject of ' lead ', here is a great little hand-cranked ammunition loading machine being used by men of the Motor Machine Gun Service to load ammunition belts for their Vickers machine guns, and it seems to have been a machine that saved a lot of time and effort.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[GRANVILLE]

That's a brilliant photo, the first time seen by myself.

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

That's a brilliant photo, the first time seen by myself.

David

David,

I understand it is a rare item of WW1 equipment, and here are some additional photographs of such a loading machine.

The first photograph shows the loading machine in it's storage box, which in post 4044, looks to have been used as the machine's base.

Regards,

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

2

[Rockdoc]

Keith,

As you say, not at all easy, and it may have been a case of just ' getting lead in the air ' in the hope of hitting a German aeroplane or scaring them off !

Regards,

LF

What most people don't realise at first, including myself when I started, is that driving a plane away from an important area is the main objective. Bringing a plane down would have been a bonus. The second-best result of AA fire is driving the enemy plane higher than its optimum altitude. That makes any photos less useful and any bombing less accurate.

Although "everybody knows" WW1 planes were fragile, bringing one down was not easy - in neither of the world wars for that matter. There is a lot of empty space inside the airframe so unless you hit the pilot, the engine or the fuel tank there's a fair chance the plane will stay in the air. I've probably already mentioned the occasion in Salonika when the bomber squadron flew over a British AA position on its was back to Hudova aerodrome. One of the planes was hit on the tail, badly damaging it, but the plane struggled on, nose up.

Keith

[Lancashire Fusilier]

In this photograph of local Belgian children playing on one of the Motor Machine Gun Service's Tenders, we can also see more details of the Tender, including the unusual straps and shackles used to tie down and secure the Tender's canvas tarpaulin.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Gardenerbill]

Of course the machine gunners in action pictures could have been staged for the photographer.