WW1 Military Motors - 1916 set x 50 cards

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF

As ever I stand to be corrected, but I think you will find the introduction of disruptive pattern camouflage predates 1918. It would be interesting to see if anyone can put up dated pictures pre 18 to prove it.

David

David,

Please do not see my reply as any form of correction, as it was certainly not intended as such, and I opened by saying that you are perfectly correct in stating that painted camouflage was used much earlier than 1918.

In fact, my earlier post # 3951 showing an excellent example of disruptive camouflage painting used on a Rolls-Royce stuck in the mud on the Arras-Tilloy Road, is dated 10th April 1917.

Again, the post related to the 13 pdr. 9 cwt. QF AA Gun and their Thornycroft and or Peerless lorries being camouflage painted, which seems to date from 1918.

Attached, is another photograph of that same disruptive camouflage painted Rolls-Royce Armoured Car stuck in a muddy shell-hole on the Arras to Tilloy Road in April 1917.

Note that as the Armoured Car is out of action, the crew have removed the AC's machine-gun.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[David Filsell]

LF

No problem, always happy to be corrected - even if you didn't?

[Gardenerbill]

LF, another forum member has asked me about my avatar piture, unfortunately I don't have the original just the cropped version I used for my profile, do you recognise it? I think it is an IWM image, have you posted it on here?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF, another forum member has asked me about my avatar piture, unfortunately I don't have the original just the cropped version I used for my profile, do you recognise it? I think it is an IWM image, have you posted it on here?

Gardenerbill,

Yes, I posted that photograph here on 14th January, 2014 and the original is not much bigger than that shown in your avatar, and here is the complete IWM photo.

It was taken on Gallipoli sometime in 1915, and shows a Despatch Rider from the Royal Naval Division, Signals Company, returning through a communication trench from Brigade H.Q.

Regards,

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A ' Karrier ' Royal Mail bus used on the Portaferry - Newtownards route operated by the Ards Motor Transport Co., which went into liquidation on May 1st, 1936.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

An extremely rare Karrier A-Type, the 1910 predecessor of the Karrier WDS, showing the rapid development in Karrier lorry design which took place within just 3 to 4 years prior to WW1.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The rear-wheel chain-drive 1910 Karrier A-Type flat-bed Lorry.

LF

Bonhams. These images arereproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

2

[Lancashire Fusilier]

After the end of WW1 and during the following inter-war years, the British Army continued to use ' Karrier ' lorries, as shown here with this nicely designed Karrier 6-Wheeled Medium Lorry.

Interestingly, some of this lorry's features such as the driver's cab area and the folding cab canopy, had changed little from that of the ' Karrier WDS '. However, it shows huge advances in lorry design from the Karrier A-Type of 1910.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[GRANVILLE]

After the end of WW1 and during the following inter-war years, the British Army continued to use ' Karrier ' lorries, as shown here with this nicely designed Karrier 6-Wheeled Medium Lorry.

Interestingly, some of this lorry's features such as the driver's cab area and the folding cab canopy, had changed little from that of the ' Karrier WDS '. However, it shows huge advances in lorry design from the Karrier A-Type of 1910.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

Absolutely. Perhaps the most striking development being the transverse springing of the front axle now allowing it to pivot, hence the very high mounted mud guards.

David

[Lancashire Fusilier]

One final post relating to the ' Karrier ' before moving on, which is an historical architectural item, being the ' Karrier ' portion of the ' Karrier Works ' sign salvaged from their factory in Huddersfield.

LF

These images are reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[NigelS]

News in today's Daily Telegraph that the Rackham tractor collection which contains an Army WW1 Holt 75 is going to Auction. The article Click states The collection includes the only surviving example of a Holt 75 - a military tractor bought by the British army from the Americans in World War One to replace horses for pulling hulking Howitzer guns to the frontline However, another article in the East Anglian Daily Times Click puts a slightly different spin to it:

The undoubted flagship of the collection is a Holt 75 built in 1918, the sole surviving example operated by the British Army during the First World War.

“It is a bit special,” said Mr Rackham. “It is the only one remaining with that provenance of having done service in the First World War – not in combat, but in supporting the supply trains at Dover.” Although a subtle difference in wording, I suspect this is nearer to the truth than 'only surviving' ?

NigelS

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With reference to the earlier enquiry regarding the vehicle recovery process, here is an excellent series of 4 photographs detailing an ASC ( Army Service Corps ) Breakdown Lorry's recovery of an Army Staff Car from a ditch near the town of Arquata Scrivia, in the Piedmont region on the Italian Front.

The first photograph, shows a somewhat resigned ASC Staff Car driver awaiting help from the ASC Breakdown Lorry, which is seen just arriving in the background, following his Staff Car leaving the road, on what looks like a pretty dismal damp overcast day.

From the Breakdown Lorry's radiator design, shown in this photograph, we know that it is an American made 'Peerless ' Lorry.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With the arrival of the ASC Breakdown Lorry, repairs to the Army Staff Car, WD Census No. C^185 can now be made, and the vehicle can then be towed back onto the road.

From the Breakdown Lorry's radiator design shown in the previous post, and the Breakdown Lorry's rear-wheel chain-drive and wheel design shown in this post, it confirms the Breakdown Lorry as being an American made ' Peerless ' Lorry.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With the repair work to the Staff Car having been completed, the ASC Breakdown Lorry, WD Census No. BL^2806, prepares to lift and tow the vehicle from the roadside ditch.

Note the tubular poles stowed on the left side of the ASC Breakdown Lorry, which when assembled, were the portable gantry used for the breakdown lorry crew's ' block & tackle ' hoist.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With the repair and recovery of the Army Staff Car completed, and the vehicle back on the road, the ASC Breakdown Lorry prepares to head back to the ASC MT Depot.

Again, we see a better view of the 4 block & tackle gantry poles stowed on the side of the Breakdown Lorry.

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although a subtle difference in wording, I suspect this is nearer to the truth than 'only surviving' ?

NigelS

Nigel,

You are correct, as certainly other WW1 Holt 75 Tractors still survive today.

By the end of WW1, the British Army had received some 2000 Holt Tractors which saw service on the Home Front, the Western Front and the Balkan Front.

As with those Holts used on the Western Front by the American Army, many were shipped back to England and America at the end of WW1 for use as farm tractors.

Regards,

LF

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

You are correct, as certainly other WW1 Holt 75 Tractors still survive today.

And are there any on display anywhere else in the UK that you know of?

[Lancashire Fusilier]

And are there any on display anywhere else in the UK that you know of?

There was one on display at the Bovington Tank Museum, and last Summer ( 2014 ) it was moved in Convoy to the Great Dorset Steam Fair, and I assume it is now back at Bovington.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

For those interested in the Holt 75 Tractor, enter ' Holt 75 ' in this Thread's search box and it will bring up a lot of information and photographs of the Holt 75.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

And are there any on display anywhere else in the UK that you know of?

Here is the link to the posts in this Thread back in October 2014, showing the Bovington Holt 75 being moved in a ' WW1 ' Convoy.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173218&page=103

Regards,

LF

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thanks LF.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

With reference to the 4 tubular poles attached to the side of the Breakdown Lorry, as shown in posts 3989/90, when assembled, these poles formed the support gantry for the portable block & tackle hoist used in roadside vehicle repairs where heavy lifting was required.

Here we see the tubular poles assembled to form a support gantry for the block & tackle hoist, which is being used for a roadside lorry repair on the Western Front by an ASC., MRU ( Mobile Repair Unit ).

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Returning briefly to the Royal Naval Mobile Anti-Aircraft Brigade posts of last July ( link attached ), here are 2 more photographs, the first showing good details of 2 of the RNMAAB's Lancia 1Z 1.5-Ton Light Lorries mounted with their Vickers 3 pdr. Quick Firing High Angle Anti-Aircraft Guns.

This photograph also shows the lorry's ' R.N. ' marking, and the number of men making up the gun's crew and their positions in the lorry when travelling.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173218&page=151

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Members of the Royal Naval Mobile Anti-Aircraft Brigade at their Kenwood House H.Q., receiving instruction on a mobile 75 mm Auto-Canon Anti-Aircraft Gun.

LF

This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Scott Motorcycle

Back on November 23, 2013 in posts 837/851, here is the link :-

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=173218&page=34

we reviewed a superb and extremely interesting 3-wheeler Machine Gun Carrier designed and developed by Alfred Angas Scott, who in 1908 founded the Scott Motorcycle Co., in Bradford, later moving his business to Saltaire, Yorkshire.

Scott's success came from his development of a powerful twin-cylinder 2-stroke motorcycle engine, the first prototype of which he designed and built in 1901, and in 1908 Alfred Scott was ready to commercially market his 333 cc. 3 hp Scott motorcycle, and founded the Scott Motorcycle Company.

By 1911, Scott was also offering a 486 cc model, with the powerful Scott motorcycles gaining a reputation for their speed and reliabilty following the Scott motorcycle's successes in the Isle of Man TT races in the years prior WW1.

Usually, when thinking of WW1 military motorcycles, the ' Triumph ' , the ' Clyno ' and the ' Douglas ' motorcycles come to mind, however, the Scott Motorcycle Co., also provided military motorcycles to the British Army during WW1, including a number of Motorcycle Machine Gun Carrier combinations powered by a 486/552 cc engine.

The WW1 era ' Scott ' motorcycle had a very distinctive ' V ' shaped frame with no crossbar, and the petrol tank mounted above the engine attached to the rear frame bar.

The Scott 486/552 cc military Motorcycle Machine Gun Carrier combinations were supplied as a set of 3 machines, the Machine Gun Carrier, an Ammunition Carrier, and a spare motorcycle, with the Scott military motorcycles seeing service both on the Home Front and the Western Front.

Surprisingly, in 1915 Alfred Scott left the Scott Motorcycle Company he had founded, to form a new company, the Scott Autocar Co., to develop and produce a civilian version of a 3-wheeler motorcar the ' Scott Sociable ' which was based on the military 3-wheeler Machine Gun Carrier which Scott had designed and produced in 1914.

Following the end of WW1, the Scott Motorcycle Co., returned to producing motorcycles and remained in business until 1982.

Alfred Scott died on August 11th 1923, aged 48 years.

As a reminder, the first photograph shows the ' Scott ' 3-wheeler Machine Gun Carrier produced as a prototype at the start of WW1, but not accepted by the War Department ( see link above for additional photographs and information )

LF

IWM This image is reproduced strictly for non-commercial research and private study purposes as permitted under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, as amended and revised.