Admin Michelle Young Posted 12 May , 2011 Admin Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Have a good holiday Tony.I too am puzzled by the butterfly reference, unless it is an oblique reference to the 19th Divisional sign? Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 12 May , 2011 Admin Share Posted 12 May , 2011 I'm stood by a civilan cemetery looking towards two memorials. The area I am in was once a hot spot,subterranean disturbance could happen at any time. Which memorials and where? Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Are you by chance at Givenchy-lès-la-Bassée looking at the 55th (West Lancashire) Division Memorial and the Tunnellers Memorial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 12 May , 2011 Admin Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Far too easy for you Jeremy :w00t: Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 That's the second time Givenchy has featured here — I set it in post #205. I was there on Saturday and the Tunneller's Memorial looked splendid in brilliant sunshine — what a contrast with the weather on 19 June last year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Sorry Michelle, I hadn't really looked at this thread much but did so then and thought 'Ooh, I know that one!' Can I be really rubbish and bow out at this stage? I am swamped with work and don't really want to get involved in a protracted thread. I only checked the GWF for a break and must now get back to work. Would you be able to set another question? Or anyone can on my behalf. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Or anyone can on my behalf. Ok...I happen to be passing, so here goes... I'm leaning on a war memorial at the back of a civilian cemetery. To my front I can see the official war cemeteries of 3 seperate nations... in fact I'm actually standing in all three at once. It was , in another time, to become a bitterly disputed spot - evidence of which can be still be seen in the 'foreign' military cemetery to my right. The local boys are all buried behind all three and to my front in a seperate plot (with headstones totally different to those of their 'non-local' countrymen). Nothing cryptic in there... it's exactly how it is. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 12 May , 2011 Admin Share Posted 12 May , 2011 This village brought a poem written in 1915 to mind when visited some years later. (Not by the writer) It is also believed that Henry V was there. Edit,Dave beat me to it! Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabine72 Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 soissons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Correct country, wrong département. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 To Dave's question — Oignies? If correct, perhaps you can also explain the two different styles of French crosses, which had me puzzled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Sorry Mick, but nope! (though we're now in the correct departement) To be honest, Orgnies is not a place I'm familiar with, but there are a number of French cemeteries that have multiple styles of grave marker. Reasons are usually to do with age, funding and/or who cares for them. Orgnies isn't an 'official' French Cimetière National under the ministère des anciens combattants... and so can be a little more liberal in uniformity. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bennitt Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 La Targette/Neuville St Vaast? cheers Martin B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Not Orgnies, Dave, but Oignies, near Lens (scene of a massacre in 1940). There is a German WW1 cemetery just over the wall from the memorial to the 'martyres' of that atrocity. Attached pic shows the mystery Y-shaped crosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 Not Orgnies, Dave, but Oignies, near Lens (scene of a massacre in 1940). Whoopsies!!! ...That's where I meant when writing 'Orgnies' (is there a place called Orgnies?)... serves me right for trying to read something totally unrelated whilst responding on here! 'Life tree' crosses - popular in certain cultures but, in that area possibly representative of a Jansenist cross? They're not under the regulation of the national cemeteries so may be more to do with personal choices and religious preference? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 May , 2011 Share Posted 12 May , 2011 La Targette/Neuville St Vaast? Sorry Martin, but no. ... a further clue - there are actually more 'inconnu' s in the civilian cemetery behind me than there are in the 3 military ones to my front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 May , 2011 Share Posted 13 May , 2011 A further clue? There are no British war casualties buried in either the civilian cemetery behind me nor in any of the 3 military ones to my front. There is, however, a large CWGC cemetery completely out of view but just over half a mile to the north west of where I'm standing (which happens to contain one of the most poignant graves I've ever encountered on the battlefields) , and another just over two miles to the south east. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 13 May , 2011 Share Posted 13 May , 2011 No more takers? OK then...another clue... I'd estimate that at least 85% of GWF users who have ever visited the battlefields of the Western Front will almost certainly have passed within one and a half miles of this spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfaulder Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 I need to get an overview of this one (hope I have not distorted in trying to summarise). Bullet points (○) are my surmising I'm leaning on a war memorial at the back of a civilian cemetery.there are actually more 'inconnu' s in the civilian cemetery behind me than there are in the 3 military ones to my front. civilian unknowns? Or a civilian massacre?[*]To my front I can see the official war cemeteries of 3 separate nations... in fact I'm actually standing in all three at once. war cemeteries - so three distinct cemeteries - but you are standing in all three - so they overlap? Later implication of WF, so perm from {British (see clue 6), French, Belgian, German, British (Empire, non-British Isles)} leaning on a war memorial at the back of a civilian cemetery, in the civilian cemetery behind me, - so the military cemeteries back onto the back of the civilian cemetery [*]It was, in another time, to become a bitterly disputed spot - evidence of which can be still be seen in the 'foreign' military cemetery to my right. so possibly not an exclusive WW1 cemetery? to become implies post WW1, so guess WW2? [*]The local boys are all buried behind all three and to my front in a separate plot (with headstones totally different to those of their 'non-local' countrymen). not just local but of a specific unit - hence the different headstones? behind all three and to my front - reinforces supposition that military cemeteries back onto the back of the civilian cemetery [*]Nothing cryptic in there... it's exactly how it is.[*]There are no British war casualties buried in either the civilian cemetery behind me nor in any of the 3 military ones to my front. British as in British Empire, or British as in from British Isles?[*]There is, however, a large CWGC cemetery completely out of view but just over half a mile to the north west of where I'm standing (which happens to contain one of the most poignant graves I've ever encountered on the battlefields) , and another just over two miles to the south east. So this place lies on a line NW-SE between two CWGC cemeteries a little over two and a half miles apart[*]I'd estimate that at least 85% of GWF users who have ever visited the battlefields of the Western Front will almost certainly have passed within one and a half miles of this spot. Why 85%? Are 85% British (as in UK)? Why one and a half miles? One and a half mile wide "bottleneck"? So either near a major site (Ieper, Tyne cot, Thiepval etc.), or near transport bottleneck (Calais/Dunkerque for port/chunnel)? I would guess at Dunkirk - bitterly contested in WW1, but am not sufficiently familiar with it to be more precise. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 I think that's a fair summary David ! I would add that it's been confirmed that it's in Pas-de-Calais (Dept. 62). I really enjoy this thread as although I'm usually not that familiar with the areas in question, I enjoy a good puzzle. I must admit I thought Martin had the answer but no ! Logic suggests somewhere near Calais to catch the 85% and perhaps includes a French cemetery with Muslim graves (hence the different headstones). Although not the answer when I try and visualise the 3 cemeteries behind a civilian one It seems similar to Sedan St Charles, which it isn't as it contains British graves and is in the wrong department ! But where ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 Is it Notre Dame de Lorette, with the French Christian, French Jewish and French Muslim plots ? The autoroute, Caberet Rouge and Vimy Ridge being nearby and visible ? Are you on the Orientation table ? EDIT: Missed the clue about no British... back to the drawing board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Bennitt Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 Dunkirk is not in the Pas-de-Calais but in the Nord (59). In fact according to this list there are only two official French military cemeteries in the 62, La Targette and Notre Dame de Lorette. Go figure cheers Martin B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 You're getting there (I think), but , just to add .... Not Dunkirk. The 'Inconnus' in the civilian cemetery are totally unknown other than date. Some may be military, but I'd say that most aren't - most aren't wartime dated anyway (and definately not from a massacre). The 3 military cemeteries are all WW1 The 'different headstones' to the local boys are different simply because they were funded by and erected by their local community. They belong to a variety of different units. A few of these are WW2 also (the only WW2 graves in these cemeteries). There was a short but extremely vicious battle in and around this cemetery in WW2 involving British , French and German troops (evidence of which is still to be seen in one of the military cemeteries)... targetted upon a feature that lies a hundred yards or so to the east of this cemetery. There are some Muslim (and Jewish) soldiers in the cemetery, but I haven't referred to these as their headstones are of the standard pattern. The three cemeteries are all in one enclosure, but completely seperate to one another (hence my ability to stand in all three at once)... two have their national flags flying (usually), but only one is signposted from the main road. All three are officially recognised by their respective war-graves agencies (or equivalent of in the case of one). 85% isn't a set figure...just a guess, but I bet I'm not too far off the mark with it. Replace the figure with the term 'the vast majority' if desired. The 'poignant' grave in the nearest CWGC cemetery that I mentioned happens to be that of the youngest person I've ever seen in an official military cemetery of any nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 In fact according to this list there are only two official French military cemeteries in the 62, La Targette and Notre Dame de Lorette. The list is incomplete, Martin, as it is based on information nearly 20 years old (as are most online listings). A number of 'Souvenir Francais' cemeteries (amongst others) were taken over from 1994 onwards. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59165 Posted 14 May , 2011 Share Posted 14 May , 2011 Before I'd read through,I thought it might have been Cateau but,is it mont Cassel???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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