Is this really disrespectful?

[Paul Reed]

Ah ok, these aren't CWGC rules at all they are Belgian laws in respect of conduct in British cemeteries.

I can only conclude that no such rules exist for any other location outside of Belgium.

[chrislock]

Thanks Chris.

As I have previously said, not my rules but Belgiums rules regarding CWGC cemeteries. For those on board who have problems with this, I suggest you take this up with the CWGC or with the King of Belgium himself and not me.

Hi Paul.

It does state as agreed beween Belgium and the CWGC so I guess that makes them the rules of both!

Time to move on I believe!!

[Paul Reed]

The only thing is Chris you have stated several times these are "CWGC rules" which you have implied are applicable to all cemeteries (no-where have you stated they are relating to Belgium), which is not what they are and is somewhat misleading to say the least.

[chrislock]

Well if I can be uploaded then no doubt so can you!

We and many others, are now aware that there is a set of joint Belgium/CWGC rules concerning CWGC cemeteries & Memorials in Belgium.

It would now be interesting to know if there is likewise in France or wherever?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

And the answer to your question is yes some do!

The reason that the CWGC has rules and regulations is so they can react when disrespect is shown by whoever and if you believe it is not posible for any person who is a GWF member to do this, then you are sadly mistaken!

This thread came about because of a local CWGC admin worker who observed a group of British visitors, picnic-ing in the Ramparts CWGC, one of the group was using a headstone as a glass stand and also as a back rest. How many of us would do this? .........

Ok - So you seem to be saying that this form of "disrespect" is carried out by GWF members. - Name them; then they will know that they are being accused and will be able to respond (assuming they might want to).

Personally, assuming the facts as presented are reasonably accurate - I found Steve Gullick's original post to be offensive only in that a British visitor visiting a British cemetery should be harangued by a johnny foreigner who may have been better advised to mind their own business.

.............. Yes I do have an axe to grind. - Two years ago I was in Ypres Resevoir Cemetery photographing a headstone and as I left an ersatz nazi pulled up in his car and flew into one (and I mean flew into one) - accusing me of stealing my own wreath. The * wouldnt stop and eventually had to have * * * * * ............. though his departing "I vill be ze politzie to get your car" has so far led to nowt.

I would not feel happy having a picnic with wine in a cemetery - my choice. I do have friends who do picnic in cemeteries - their choice - and their intentions are not disrespectfull. I think you are over-reacting.

Tom

[auchonvillerssomme]

I most definately did not mention Stephen by name but I do know the lady who the post refers to and she is indeed an employee of the CWGC and she states what I have recently posted. Why should she make this up???

I suggest you confirm with Stephen ( if you must ) if one or some of his party was doing as she states? Maybe Stephen wasn't aware of this taking place? Maybe it was another party but I believe she did see this event take place but where is this going?

The facts are still the same.

The CWGC has rules and regulations to protect the cemeteries. What is the problem?

If you have a problem with this, then please go speak with the CWGC!

Hi Chris.

I would assume if the Memorial is the property of the CWGC then again rules and regulations apply ( Maybe a different set of rules for Memorials )

Not sure about the land they stand on though?

Cemeteries I believe are another story.

Maybe Terry or indeed Dave can pop up here and educate the some who need confirming on what the CWGC states you MAY and MAY NOT do within the boundaries of a CWGC.

Just because you do not agree with these rules or maybe because you wish to abide by these rules as you personaly see them is of no interest to me however, it may well be of interest to any passing CWGC employee or any on site employee.

Go ahead and do what you wish as some are stating but at the end of the day, ignorance is no defence to the law. Simple!

You are just blurring the issue, you specifically said that

'This thread came about because of a local CWGC admin worker who observed a group of British visitors, picnic-ing in the Ramparts CWGC, one of the group was using a headstone as a glass stand and also as a back rest'.

No it didn't, you introduced this scenario all the way down in post 71. The wording appears to imply that you have some inside knowledge of the events as told by Steven.

[Mark Hone]

While re-reading Martin Middlebrook's guide to the Somme Battlefields in preparation for next year's visit I noticed that he mentions that he often ate his packed lunch sitting on the wall of a CWGC Cemetery.

[chrislock]

OK please allow me to hopefully give you the answers you seek;

Firstly to Tom.

Johhny Foreigner as you so quaintly put it, is an employee of the CWGC and a very passionate, dedicated employee at that and was most definately doing her own business on behalf of our dead who lay in that cemetery! Living alongside the Ramparts Cemetery I know this employee and trust me, she is most polite but does have a responsible job, just as you probably do. I spoke to her after reading Steves original interesting post and she confirmed it was indeed her who challenged a group of Brits in the Ramparts Cemetery on that date. Her version is however different to Steves version. What brought her to intervene was that one of the group, a female was using a headstone as a wine glass table and also as a back rest to lay up against, sofa fassion. Also, If you think that is impossible for a GWF member to show disrespect in a CWGC Cemetery, now that the joint Belgian/CWGC rules and regulations have been confirmed, then I would suggest the vast majority of us including me in the past, were/are doing this simply because of our unawareness to the rules in Belgium. However, as per the ongoing posts it is also very clear that some will deliberately continue to picnic irelevant to the rules because that is what they will do, or they believe in their own heads that this is not a problem and is acceptable.

The fact of the matter is this;

Persons posting on this thread stating that they do this and that in the cemeteries, most probably do so without the slightest intention to show any disrespect whatsoever but here is the rub; the CWGC her in Belgium operates with a set of rules and regulations designed to protect the cemeteries from any wilful or accidental disrespect taking place. May I suggest you support the great work and diligence being offered by our Belgian coleagues in enforcing what you may or may not do within our cemeteries as without any rules, what then?

It makes no difference to me if you believe this or not as I know this CWGC employee very well and she most definately has no reason whatsoever to invent what she claims she saw and did. I believe you personally have a problem with so called foreigners as your disrespectful post to all confirms and then use this thread to vent your spleen on this subject! Why not simply continue to deal with your singular Ypres Reservior situation respectfully, instead of posting Johnny Foreigner/Nazi posts on a forum which includes not only Belgians, but many other nationalities!!

I would say it is you, not me who is over reacting! I have simply posted the rules and regs applicable over here along with a another version of the alleged incident and you don't like it.

To Ocean Villas.

Quite right I have some inside knowledge on this subject and it came to light at post 71. Surely not that difficult to understand??

Look, what Steve did or what every member in his group were doing in the cemetery will only be known by Steve himself, his party and the CWGC employee who confronted the group.

The thread started well with many posting they are happy to picnic, drink toasts etc and believe it or not, I personally have no problem with this however, if you are then observed doing this in Belgium, don't be surprised if a CWGC employee intervenes and instructs you to take your drink and food outside of the cemetery boundaries.

This forum has rules, so why not the CWGC?? Or is it some here simply don't like rules and will do whatever whenever?

As Paul picked up, I was not aware that these joint rules and regulations as sanctioned and put into law by both the King of Belgium and the CWGC were in existance until recently uploaded onto this thread by a most helpful forum member.

I am now most definately enlightened.

Amazing thread!

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

.......... Johhny Foreigner as you so quaintly put it,

.......... indeed her who challenged a group of Brits in the Ramparts Cemetery

.......... Her version is however different to Steves version.

.......... rules

Johnny Foreigner is a term of endearment for anybody who isnt British; much in the same vein as the continentals refering to us (the British) as Rostbiff, or "Brits".

And neither you nor I know which one might be correct, but I might be able to imagine what might have happened, given what has been said here.

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" is attributed to Douglas Bader, though I suspect it predates him. Regardless, a slavish adherence to "rules" which equates a cemetery visitor who maybe stops for a beer and a sandwich whilst they take in their surroundings, with the mindless yob passing through, who tosses his beer can in the bushes is ........... simply dismal.

................It makes no difference to me if you believe this or not as I know this CWGC employee very well and she most definately has no reason whatsoever to invent what she claims she saw and did.

QED - Steve .............

(rather you than me).

Tom

[depaor01]

Summary so far:

• The overwhelming majority of members of this forum (including me) believe it is not disrespectful.
• It is prohibited by law in Belgium.
• We don't know if it is prohibited elsewhere.

Dave.

[SiegeGunner]

So is it okay to picnic in German cemeteries in Belgium, or is there a separate piece of legislation covering them?

[George Armstrong Custer]

Her version is however different to Steves version. What brought her to intervene was that one of the group, a female was using a headstone as a wine glass table and also as a back rest to lay up against, sofa fassion.

It might equally be argued, of course, that having had it brought to her attention that her behaviour had been complained of on this forum as over zealous, that she would say that - ie put arms and legs on the behaviour of the people complaining about her in order to appear to justify the way in which she allegedly approached them. All that can be said with certainty is that only those who were actually there know the truth of the matter, and their accounts differ. It's interesting, therefore, to see the heat being generated here by some who were not there.

George

[geraint]

I think that this thread is in danger of applying 21st century British standards to men born in the ninteenth century. What is fine and civilised to us, is not necessarily true to them; nor is it necessarily applicable to Belgium and France.

Go to any rural French cemetery, and you will never find anyone drinking nor eating there. They are almost all surrounded by walls to keep out animals, and are locked at night. Widows tend and mind the graves daily. They will certainly look at you askance, and even ask a visitor why you are there. In Britain, cemeteries have often been associated with the local village pubs as places of recreation as well as burial - it's a different culture.

The men of the Great War were not a bunch of beer swilling ruffians, who, to quote many who have posted here "wouldnt mind at all". Most were sober, thoughtfull men, who wouldn't have dreamed of visiting a pub. To my great uncle buried at Varennes, to open a bottle of wine in the vicinity of his grave would have been the most disrespectful acts possible.

The influence of the temperance societies in both England and Wales, prior to the war was immense, and both John Hartley and Dragon have referred to it.

The CWGC rules were probably drafted during the early 20s and reflected the sobriety of the period, and should be respected.

Would I open a bottle of wine under the Thiepval Monument? Absolutely not.

[Muerrisch]

Put me down as compliant ..... the nearest I get to naughty in this respect is OUTSIDE THE WALL at places like Gorre-Beuvry. Tea/ coffee and a bun.

Just a question of good manners, and, if people don't comply, it would be bad-mannered for the rest of us to draw their attention to the matter.

Officials are different.

[as a footnote, Army Temperance Societies throve, with annual medals for abstinence eagerly sought.]

[Greyhound]

I see that arguing is against the rules as well

[Terry_Reeves]

Oh no it isn't!

TR

[auchonvillerssomme]

Go to any rural French cemetery, and you will never find anyone drinking nor eating there. They are almost all surrounded by walls to keep out animals, and are locked at night. Widows tend and mind the graves daily.

Geraint that isn't quite the case, French civil cemeteries are usually well tended but there is little respect for the dead, there are cemeteries where there are human remains visible in the soil, vaults are desecrated with the remains of coffins and contents visible. At one time there were large numbers of enamelled pictures of soldiers in uniform on graves and elaborate enamelled memorials, you rarely see them now except in private collections or for sale at French militaria sales.

Mick

[geraint]

I'm thinking of the Limousin cemeteries that I know fairly well (5-6 in which I've searched for 138th regiment d'infantry, and a few others that I've visited). All well kept by their families. The enamelled soldiers still in place, and in a couple of places the oblong aluminium temporary grave markers still visible. The point being Mick, that their view of the dead is far more formal than ours. Since Halloween, of course, resplendent with a carpet of chrysanthemums!

[trenchtrotter]

I think there was alot of beer swilling going on back then too but agree a far more thriving tee total movement. The 14 - 18 generation were not saints you know! Every spectrum was represented...heros, cowards, drunks, abstainers, ordinary people....diversity. Diversity is not a modern invention just a modern phrase.

I am getting frustrated with this thread and I think its time we all agreed to disagree and do the right thing!

Regards all

TT

[Steve Gullick]

Hi Guys

I have been away for a while and it appears that the tread responses have been going to my spam folder for some reason, so I thought that this thread was dead.

I feel that I have to respond to some earlier posts regarding my original post and further posts by Chris Lock.

It appears, having spoken to the other members of my little party, that it was indeed us who cased the offence to the lady of Chris’s acquaintance. It appears that my Mother -in- Law did momentarily place her glass of wine on a headstone and although she disputed that she was using a headstone as a backrest, she does admit to sitting down next to a grave with her arm around it. I was not aware of this at the time of my original post and I would agree that this disclosure does put a different light on the attitude of the lady in question.

So, I would like to wholeheartedly apologise to the Lady, I can now well understand where she was coming from and, although I sill think she was unnecessarily aggressive, she certainly had a point.

Having spoken to my Mother-in-Law about this, she is mortified at the unintentional offence she has obviously given. A few weeks prior to our visit, her nephew, Zak Cusak, was killed on active service in Afghanistan at the tender age of 20 years. Her actions in and around the grave concerned was her way of trying to get close to Zak, and to anyone who did not know, her actions could have very well appeared disrespectful, but she was simply holding the grave of a fallen soldier in remembrance of her own fallen soldier.

If Chris could offer our unreserved apology to the Lady in question I would be eternally grateful.

This thread has developed a quite nasty undertone which I think is completely uncalled for.

[Andrew Hesketh]

One of the best posts I've read in ages. Nice one Steve.

[Piorun]

Thank you, Steve, for a courageous and honest post that has lifted this thread back onto higher ground. Perhaps our long-suffering Mods might consider now closing the thread - given that Steve's statement leaves little room for any more unedifying debate. Antony

[chrislock]

Hi Steve.

I echo Steves post entirely. Whenever I next see the CWGC lady in question I will of course explain all. It was very decent of you to post this and I thank you.

I look forward to seeing you in the future when I will buy you a beer next door in Fabiennes.

Best wishes

Chris.

[old joe]

I'm thinking of the Limousin cemeteries that I know fairly well (5-6 in which I've searched for 138th regiment d'infantry, and a few others that I've visited). All well kept by their families. The enamelled soldiers still in place, and in a couple of places the oblong aluminium temporary grave markers still visible. The point being Mick, that their view of the dead is far more formal than ours. Since Halloween, of course, resplendent with a carpet of chrysanthemums!

I am a Former Resident of New Orleans and there is a tradition of families going to the family tomb or vault on November 1st and cleaning and whitewashing the tomb and making a day of it, visiting with others doing the same and no doubt some partaking in food and drink. I think it is a throwback to the French/Catholic influence in New Orleans. Unfortunately this tradition is in decline due to a number of factors, varying from families being scattered after Hurricane Katrina to a general coarsening of society and tendency to focus on the here and now rather than link with the past, the use of raised cemeteries by homeless and drug addicts and in some the real threat of being robbed by thugs.

I think this goes along with the comment about French families picnicing in French military cemeteries at the grave of a relative.

Is there a pronounced difference in the attitude of local people in Flanders and that of locals in France in regard to picnicing or having a toast in commonwealth military cemeteries?

If people choose to have a snack and propose a toast and it is done with decorum and respect is there any real harm done? Consider that visitors have travelled from Britain or from North America or Australia and New Zealand and for some this may be a once in a lifetime occasion.

The main point being that people do choose to come and visit the fallen and reflect and remember and respect the fact that these men answered the call and made the ultimate sacrifice and that this be the intention of the visit, not to use a cemetery as one would a public park.

[geraint]

Hi 80th

In my understanding of how rural, traditional families in the heartland of the limousin keep their cemeteries then the answer is that they woulf feel outraged if you entered a cemetery and had a picnic, and some of the older folk would certainly berate you and even attempt to escort you out of the cemetery. I doubt whether this is true of more cosmopolitan areas, and I'm pretty sure that in Ypres and the Somme the local population are far more tolerant of visitors. The cultural differences are far more immense than the geopolitical nearnes makes out.

Geraint