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Remembered Today:

Is this really disrespectful?


Steve Gullick

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I very often visit a certain cemetary in Flanders. I have no-one buried there, my nearest departed KIA is in Peronne. However, I do like to visit this place in the evening and contemplate what it must have been like for the fallen, sometimes I just sit quietly with a book and sometimes I take a bottle of wine and a glass and drink to the memory of those who lie here. Some times I am on my own, sometimes with members of my family. I have to stress that we are very quiet and certainly want to do nothing more than pay our respects in our own way. I have been doing this for quite a while now.

However, last time we did this, we were on our own in the cemetary quietly enjoying its peace and the solitude, when we were confrunted by a Belgian Lady who, to put it mildly, was outraged that we were drinking a glass of wine in this sacred place. I did try to calm her down and, if I am honest, admire her passion for the place. Sadly, her outrage disturbed what was a most peaceful and tranquil time and it has really put me of visiting the place again.

I would value your opinions on this.

Thanks

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Maybe you should invite her to come along next time.

I'm not outraged at what you do, it seems that you're most respectful.

I am however, outraged at your spelling of the word cemetery. ;)

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Absolutely not. A full blown pick nic maybe but a sandwich and a drink....no. When walking in March my brother and I always have a baguette and cup of tea freshly brewed with a portable gas stove.

In summer I too have had a quiet beer and contemplative moment.

I am sure the lads would join you if they could.

As an aside when my little one were younger we stopped at cemeteries and it was a joy to hear their laughter as they ran around and played hide and seek. I again believe it would bring joy to the hearts of the boys to hear it and see youth celebrating life...the life stolen from them.

Regards

TT

PS have a glass for me next time too.

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Thanks guys, you have made me feel a whole lot better. It was a pretty horrible experience really. The lady was obviously caring and passionate about the place, but I could not but think she was missing the point. My take is that the guys buried here are hero's every one, but not all hero's are angels and I am fairly certain that not one of them would have had a problem with our behaviour.

Sorry about my spelling...

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I recently talked with someone who is very concerned about disrespectful behaviour in cemeteries in the area where she lives (around Ieper). I am not at all intending to imply that your reflection time fell into that category but perhaps someone was overzealous and maybe 'policing' has become a bit of a mission for some people. She told us of children throwing frisbees, kicking footballs and generally using the cemeteries as play areas. Also people allowed their dogs to wee on headstones and leave other doggie mess behind. It's not so long ago that 'No Dogs Allowed' signs were placed at the entrance to cemeteries around Ieper.

At Ari Burnu and Beach cemeteries in Gallipoli there are signs saying 'no picnics' and when my husband and I were there recently placing tributes and had left our paper work and back packs under a tree, a CWGC inspector appeared from nowhere and made it very obvious he was checking on what we were doing.

I probably wouldn't choose to have a picnic or a drink in a cemetery - however, having said that, a friend told me that on his third or fourth trip to Gallipoli, he and another friend decided to take a bottle of wine to the Nek cemetery one evening as the sun set. They both sat there reflecting and wept. I could really relate to this.

Judy

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A good friend of mine who I've visited in the Somme on a couple of occasions makes it a habit to have a glass of wine or two in certain cemeteries in the early evening, such as Point 110. We made a nice little toast in Bourlon Wood one November afternoon. I think it's fine. It's just a matter of being discrete and respectful (and of course don't leave the bottle behind) I mean as long as you don't find yourself waking up in the cemetery around dawn with a headache and grass pressed into one cheek, then it's okay, I think. In the latter case you may have bigger problems.....

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I don't have a problem with this at all, have a glass for me next time!

Michelle

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I can see the Belgian lady's point. Though I have every sympathy with Steve and his family who were clearly very respectful. Seeing them open a bottle might - in her eyes - have opened the way to others who were less so. And from Judy's post above, it seems that certain people in Belgium might be in the habit of visiting cemeteries for the wrong reasons.

It's rather in the way that (I believe) we are no longer allowed to drink alcohol in outdoor public spaces in the UK. I haven't put that one to the test yet, but in summers gone by I have picnicked in one or two London parks before some open-air theatrical or operatic event or other; presumably I could now be run in for opening an accompanying bottle of wine.

Maybe, Steve, to be on the safe side in future, it'd be best to pour your drinks just on the outside of the cemetery, and to lean on the wall while you contemplate the fallen.

Angela

PS On the subject of picnicking: a French lady of my acquaintance, who runs the tourist office in a touristic village in western France, said that when British people ask if they can picnic in the precincts of the local chateau she always says Yes. ( It's actually not strictly allowed, but she says she knows it's always fine with the English as they are so respectful and always take all their rubbish away with them, whereas the French.......).

So, you see, foreigners just are not used to our ingrained self-effacing behaviour. ;)

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Whenever I'm out walking the fields I always have a small packed lunch with me.

I always eat it, while resting my weary feet, in a cemetery.

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I would not think a drink of wine disrespectful. Perhaps the lady was chairperson of the Belgian anti-beer society or temperance league. Further instances of dis-respect or "diss" as I believe the youger fraternity refer to it. Two years ago visiting the le Touret memorial at Festubert we disturbed a young man taking some quite professional photographs of a young lady in rather limited wardrobe using the stone benches and walls as a back drop. A friend quickly had a strong word with him that he did not consider that appropriate and the couple quickly retreated.

Then in May there was the case of the Disrespectful Dog at Vimy Ridge. Despite many signs at entrance and car oparks etc that dogs are not allowed we observed on a busy Sunday morning at the Canadian memorial end two joggers approaching over the grass accompanied by a rather nice chocolate coloured labrador. Immediate dash towards them by the young student manning the car park, urgent use of radio, arrival of two securtity guards on electric buggy, Gallic arm waving by owners,arrest of said chien, who sat there wagging his tail at all concerned in the midst of all this and who was eventually grasped by the collar and marched off by a guard with one jogger presumably back to a car park and expulsion from the park.Still wagging his tail.Perhaps your lady could have lectured him! SG

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A few years ago, while visiting Perth (China Wall Cemetery), I stumbled across a grave with my son's name - James Doyle - in this case a young lad in one of the Irish regiments (can't remember which). Though right in the middle of the cemetery this grave had a small 'shot' glass filled with whisky/whiskey placed upon it, unexplained. No accident I feel, but rather a silent tribute, rather like the stones placed on Jewish soldiers' gravestones.

My point? We all commemorate/celebrate the lives of these men in different ways. Anyone observing would understand your intentions, surely. I'm sure most of us would.

Best wishes

Peter

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Folk have their own views about what is respectful in a cemetery. I neither judge Steve nor the woman who confronted him. Both are individuals and are right as they see things.

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I always carry a Personal Brew Kit with me,and have often "Drummed" up a Cup of Tea for myself and my other Half at various Cemeteries,whilst CWGC personnel have been working there,and have experienced no adverse reactions from them.

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No not at all having a bottle of wine to go with your thoughts of those lost at the cemetery.Only gets disrespectful if you get drunk ,act like an idiot because of drinking to0 much wine.. :innocent:

MC

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Folk have their own views about what is respectful in a cemetery. I neither judge Steve nor the woman who confronted him. Both are individuals and are right as they see things.

How were the cemeteries treated in the early days? I cannot recall seeing for instance many benches or obvious intended seating places built into boundary walls (a couple of stone benches against the wall at Tyne Cot and a stone bench in the Cupola at Gordon Dump). Did early visitors sit on the steps of the cross, and was this the expectation of the designers and commissioners?

As a contrast what behaviour is expected in an ordinary English Country Churchyard? Is that a valid comparison, or do different standards apply?

David

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I have 2 hip flasks with me when on the battlefields, one with whisky and one with rum, i have the whisky and lads get a tot of rum, I have been doing this for nearly 10 years now, at lunchtime we sit outside the cemetery to eat, but I have to say that some 16 years ago friends and my family all met at Lancashire dump on the Somme and sat with blankets and chairs and had drinks and cakes, it is not disrepectful as a teacher from Pascheandale once said when asked to remove the children from Tyne Cot cemetery "do you not think that the lads lying here would love to hear the sound of children playing?" My answer is yes, as was the person who had questioned her at the time,

We are not drunken louts, we are paying our respects,

Mandy x

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... a CWGC inspector appeared from nowhere and made it very obvious he was checking on what we were doing.

This has intrigued me. I have "picniced" all over Gallipoli, sometimes in full view, or even chatting with, CWGC gardeners. Can you elaborate at all.

To Steve - you have done nothing disrespectful and I would say just carry on as before.

Regards,

Jonathan S

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The first visit to the Fallen Dubliner mentioned in my posting note below in 2001 was accompanied by said baguette and small bottle of wine. It felt absolutely right.

When you think about it, the fact that it's bread and wine gives the act a quasi-religious feel (for Christians anyway).

Absolutely not disrespectful in my opinion.

-Dave

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Once again, thank you everyone. I have to confess that some self doubt had started to creep in and the last thing I would wish to do would be to trample on someone’s deeply held sensitivities. This lady was so obviously caring and concerned for the welfare of the cemetery (it was Ramparts Cemetery) that it was a pretty surreal experience in that we all seemed to be concerned for the respect and sanctity of the place, but were seeing the thing from completely different perspectives. I sincerely hope it was just a case of putting the mouth into gear before engaging the brain, something that we are all guilty of now and again.

I do wish I could get in touch with her, if only to try to have a calm and rational conversation about the incident, all I know is that she was a member of the local British Legion. This has been troubling me since it happened.

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I tend to ask the question "would those lying buried there have joined you if they could". If the answer, in all probability is "yes" what you are doing is fine.

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No problem with this as far as I'm concerned. Raise a glass in memory of the fallen.

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It all depends. If someone is visiting a relative's grave, and obviously wants to pay respects quietly, you would move yourself and bottle away to a spot where you would be inconspicuous. I find very small children playing in these places quite a moving contrast, but teenagers doing the same annoy me - they are old enough to understand what the place is about.

Edwin

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This lady was so obviously caring and concerned for the welfare of the cemetery (it was Ramparts Cemetery) that it was a pretty surreal experience in that we all seemed to be concerned for the respect and sanctity of the place, but were seeing the thing from completely different perspectives. I sincerely hope it was just a case of putting the mouth into gear before engaging the brain, something that we are all guilty of now and again.

Steve – I am good friends with Rose Coombs’ sister and she often tells me of Rose and her enjoying a drink whilst sitting on the bench at the end of Ramparts Cemetery. So tell that to the local lady (who will have walked up the lane named in Rose’s honour) if and when she confronts you again. I would echo all that has been said above – it really is not a problem and many of us enjoy a drink and picnic in the cemeteries. Don’t let one over-officious local (even if it was meant in the right way) put you off.

Jeremy

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Steve,

You have my vote of confidence too. I find it a rather fitting way to toast our Fallen and I'm sure they'd love to join you in a tipple or two. I too have partaken in a small snack or two on my trips round the Somme and have always raised a bleaker/cup/glass or whatever I have had to hand and toasted the Fallen. I don't find this at all disrespectful so long as it is done in a quiet, reflective way

I have voiced my displeasure on other threads of the behaviour of people of all ages treating the area as some sort of theme park but not this.

Chin chin and bottoms ups.

Neil

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Steve,

Well done you! I often raise a glass to the fine young men who gave their lives so that we could raise that glass, on the land they died for! I know the cemeteries are in France (Balgium etc), but they gave us the land and should have no juristriction there.

Chris

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