Is this really disrespectful?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I found this post from a thread about 2007 - It is a letter from the CWGC to me when I enquired about the state of some graves in a Doncaster Cemetery. Not entirely relevent to the original post but will give perhaps those who might see English cemeteries as twee little oasis of calm.

Dear Mr Brand

Doncaster Hyde Park Cemetery

I refer to your e-mail dated 18th October 2007 regarding a broken stone of Pioneer J S Ogden and the condition of the grave of Corporal T Brown.

I can confirm that a replacement stone has been ordered for Pioneer Ogden.

Regarding the condition of the grave of Corporal Brown, if I may explain there are more than 170,000 Commonwealth war graves in 12,000 different cemeteries and churchyards in the United Kingdom. The reason for the large number of burial grounds is that the military authorities did not seek to control where servicemen and women were buried when they died in their home country and, most were, therefore, buried, not in military cemeteries, but in their own local churchyard or cemetery. Often, they were buried in graves with other members of their family, marked by private memorials.

In these circumstances, we seek to ensure the continued maintenance of Commonwealth war graves in the United Kingdom, by entering into maintenance agreements for their upkeep. These are normally made with the controlling authority or the cemetery or churchyard and sometimes with individuals. The standard of maintenance achieved under these arrangements varies considerably but the minimum acceptable standard is that the grave should be kept tidy and, if laid to grass, should be cut reasonably short through the growing season.

I will pass your comments on to the Regional Supervisor for the area. However I can confirm that we have tried twice to enter this cemetery to do maintenance works but gangs have chased our staff out of the site. This has been reported to both the local authority and the police and we understand that this is an on-going problem with this particular site. Our Supervisor is scheduled to meet with a Community Safety Warden at Doncaster and the Local Authority in November to discuss this issue.

Thank you for taking the time to bring these matters to our attention and I can confirm that we will not let the names of these war casualties, nor any of those also buried at Doncaster Hyde Park Cemetery, be forgotten.

Yours sincerely

There is no great change to the area.

[susan kitchen]

I very often visit a certain cemetary in Flanders. I have no-one buried there, my nearest departed KIA is in Peronne. However, I do like to visit this place in the evening and contemplate what it must have been like for the fallen, sometimes I just sit quietly with a book and sometimes I take a bottle of wine and a glass and drink to the memory of those who lie here. Some times I am on my own, sometimes with members of my family. I have to stress that we are very quiet and certainly want to do nothing more than pay our respects in our own way. I have been doing this for quite a while now.

However, last time we did this, we were on our own in the cemetary quietly enjoying its peace and the solitude, when we were confrunted by a Belgian Lady who, to put it mildly, was outraged that we were drinking a glass of wine in this sacred place. I did try to calm her down and, if I am honest, admire her passion for the place. Sadly, her outrage disturbed what was a most peaceful and tranquil time and it has really put me of visiting the place again.

I would value your opinions on this.

Thanks

There is no harm in what you are doing. I'm sure all those who are buried there would say the same if they could. In fact they would probably say " Have one for me".

Susan

[Andy Wade]

Not just gangs of drinkers,

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/Thug-sets-up-camp-in.6433765.jp

I hope his camp fire doesn't spread to his tent...

Ah, I see he's been moved on from the cemetery:

Homeless Man Quits Cemetery

Good.

[Trinovantes]

"Disrespectful", In my opinion not at all. I think disrespectful behaviour is obvious but to have a glass of wine and a snack is anything but that. I have in the past toasted the fallen with the aid of a hip flask and on one occasion we poured a tot onto the headstone of my friends Grandfather, a symbolic gesture so not to leave him out as we passed the flask around.

On a recent trip to the Somme and Fromelles with my elderly parents we stopped by at Aubers Ridge cemetery to enjoy our soft drinks and sandwiches by the shade of a tree.

The lads would understand !!!

John.

[PBI]

Hi John and Co,myself and a Friend recently attended the Funeral of Pte Alan Mather,at Prowse Point Military Cemetery..were we attended Pte Mathers reinterment and very respectfully raised our Hip Flasks to his eternal memory.2 Members of the CWGC Senior Staff also accepted a restorative from our Flasks.Disrespectful certainly not John.

[Trinovantes]

Hi John and Co,myself and a Friend recently attended the Funeral of Pte Alan Mather,at Prowse Point Military Cemetery..were we attended Pte Mathers reinterment and very respectfully raised our Hip Flasks to his eternal memory.2 Members of the CWGC Senior Staff also accepted a restorative from our Flasks.Disrespectful certainly not John.

Well done in making a fitting tribute. I doubt Pte Mather was tee total and would have enjoyed a slug from your flask.

John.

[judy7007]

I haven't read this thread for a while (having a few 'difficulties' (!) here and there with GWF) but I think it is so wonderful to able to have a drink and respecfully remember. I posted way back that I personally would not have a drink in a cemetery, but perhaps I was giving more attention to those 'police' who might come by and impose their own views and cause me angst.

If I were alone and remembering I would do what I considered was appropriate. I really do know that they would love me to have a drink with them. I just prefer to avoid the angst of all the PC police. I like to visit the soldiers on my own, away from the most visited and most 'popular' cemeteries, and spend time reflecting.

Judy

[John_Hartley]

I doubt Pte Mather was tee total

It was much more common than today, particularly in areas where Methodism was a strong influence (although there's still quite a number of us who don't drink for various reasons).

[Trinovantes]

It was much more common than today, particularly in areas where Methodism was a strong influence.

"YAWN"....... I'm going down the pub !!!

[chrislock]

As a matter of interest does anyone know what the CWGC take on this is? Are there any rules or regs. regarding this at all?

Thanks

Now there could be the answer! According to the 1987 rules and regulations of the CWGC, it is forbidden to pic nic in any dedicated British CWGC. She may have been an employee of the local CWGC and was just doing her job, although be it a tad strictly I fear but at least she cared. Maybe we should not forget that here!

Living across the road from the Ramparts CWGC, i have on several occasions witnessed spent wine bottles and beer cans laying in the cemetery. Beer bottle tops are the most common, especialy strewn around the cross of sacrifice in this particular cemetery. Maybe that's why this loyal passionate Belgian lady challenged you. As a matter of interest, were you in a group as groups of teenagers often use the Menin Gate Memorial rear enclosure for drinking sessions and have also used the COS in the Ramparts CWGC for this activity, especially during the summer school holidays and remember, the locals day drink often here. Your group was obviously most respectful but remember, if you are dealing with dis respect often, an in haste error of judgement is easily made.

Me? I purposely carry a hip flask for this reason and often toast the guys. I also pour some of my sacred stuff onto my Great Uncles grave. Just in case you know!

[judy7007]

According to the 1987 rules and regulations of the CWGC, it is forbidden to pic nic or take food and drink into any dedicated British CWGC.

Well, there you are...Best to keep your food and drink under wraps I would think

Some wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't like to be accosted by some one when I am having my own quiet reflection (avec du vin)

Judy

[John_Hartley]

"YAWN"....... I'm going down the pub !!!

Very good. I love witty responses

[Trinovantes]

Very good. I love witty responses

"ZZZZzzzzzzz"

[Salfordian]

I think having a glass of wine is what the Tommies buried there would want you to do. They died for your freedom and that includes Freedom to have a tipple in memory of them !

[Dragon]

"YAWN"....... I'm going down the pub !!!

Many young men from Nonconformist backgrounds, especially Methodists, would have signed promises to be teetotal, well before the War or on joining up. Indeed, there was an Army Temperance League and a Soldiers' Total Abstinence Association in the 19c and soldiers in uniform were permitted to wear on their left chest the medals issued by these organisations. You can see pictures in the SWB collection, for example and if you can read Welsh, there are numerous documents on the Gathering The Jewels site.

John was making a perfectly valid, neutral observation and one I can confirm coming from a teetotal Nonconformist, Welsh/English family. I can't speculate about the opinions held by dead men whose bodies lie in the cemeteries, but I think it's reasonable to assume that in life, a fair number of the men in certain cemeteries (eg Welsh casualties) would not be in sympathy with drinking alcohol.

Gwyn

[Trinovantes]

Many young men from Nonconformist backgrounds, especially Methodists, would have signed promises to be teetotal, well before the War or on joining up. Indeed, there was an Army Temperance League and a Soldiers' Total Abstinence Association in the 19c and soldiers in uniform were permitted to wear on their left chest the medals issued by these organisations. You can see pictures in the SWB collection, for example and if you can read Welsh, there are numerous documents on the Gathering The Jewels site.

John was making a perfectly valid, neutral observation and one I can confirm coming from a teetotal Nonconformist, Welsh/English family. I can't speculate about the opinions held by dead men whose bodies lie in the cemeteries, but I think it's reasonable to assume that in life, a fair number of the men in certain cemeteries (eg Welsh casualties) would not be in sympathy with drinking alcohol.

Gwyn

ZZZzzzzzz

[Matt Dixon]

Trinovantes, respect for your fellow members please. Stop trying to wind people up, this is decent thread, please keep it that way.

[Frajohn]

Looking through some photos, when I saw this one it reminded me of this thread.

Is it disrespecful Steve? I do not think so, just my opinion.

John

[Trinovantes]

Trinovantes, respect for your fellow members please. Stop trying to wind people up, this is decent thread, please keep it that way.

Calm down fella !!!

[AlanCurragh]

Trinovantes - I think Matt is perfectly calm - he's just asking you to stop posting nonsense like "zzzzzzzz".

[chrislock]

Great pic by FraJohn there and I also do not think this is disrespectful at all however, compare John's respectful pic or Steves quiet glass of wine to the following situation and maybe just then, people may then see and feel very different.

Several weeks ago, a group of people set up a picnic in the very cemetery we are talking about. A headstone was being used as a glass table with persons also useing the headstones as a back rests. Again another local lady who lives opposite politely informed the group that this was not acceptable. The group let her know what she could do and told her to go away in no short terms! To some on this thread the above picnic may be acceptable! Others may feel this scenario has crossed the boundaries of simply enjoying a glass of wine or toasting the dead. This then being the case, words may be spoken and depending on the respect offered by both parties, conflict may well then take place!

In this case, the Belgian lady may previously have dealt with such a situation as above and because this being unknown by the group concerned at the time, conflict arose!

There is always a bigger picture and visitors sometimes are not up to speed on local events.

I believe in this case, the Belgian lady being aware of CWGC rules and regs on picnics and food and drink being consumed in our cemeteries acted in good faith but as Steve informs us he was simply having a quiet glass of wine, then overreaction springs to mind here.

Just my views as a resident over here who regulary witness mostly excellent behavoir but on a minority of occasions, depressing behavoir indeed. I hope my respectful post to all helps here.

Chris.

[Steve Gullick]

Well, there has been a lot of responses to my OP and it appears that most would not consider our actions in any way disrespectful, however, disrespectful or not, it seems that we were in contravention of the CWCG rules. Perhaps it might be an idea for the CWCG to put a little note inside the visitors books explaining what we can and can't do, as I was not aware of these regulations, and would never set out to offend, no matter how unitentionally.

I think discretion is the way forward.

[chrislock]

Steve, I totally agree with you! I have this morning checked with the CWGC and under their 1987 rules and regulations which are the current, it states it is against even civil law to picnic/eat/drink and a raft of other activities not permitted to take place in CWGC's and it gives members of the public powers to bring this information to offenders when required. It also states that the police may be called if the offence continues....

Harsh words indeed but not mine. The CWGC also state they will send rules and regulations sheet to all on request. If this being the case, I agree with Steve, maybe the time has arisen for these rules and regulations to be included in the cemetery register books or via an info board at the cemetery/memorial itself. This makes sense for all concerned I believe.

Chris.

[Roger H]

A headstone was being used as a glass table with persons also useing the headstones as a back rests.

Chris.

Now that IS unacceptable.

Roger

[judy7007]

, maybe the time has arisen for these rules and regulations to be included in the cemetery register books or via an info board at the cemetery/memorial itself. This makes sense for all concerned I believe.

Chris.

Chris

I for one quite often do not read the register books, usually having done most research that I wish to do before I visit, printed out plans, info etc. Others may choose not to read the books for other reasons. A notice on the board might catch some attention but also might not. It would certainly be a step forward from the present position (for most of us it seems), which is being totally unaware of the Regulation. It is clear that many are showing a great deal of respect as they have a drink and remember the lads. However some may have chosen not to do so if they knew of the regulations. Maybe one of those signs with a picture and an X through the cup and hamburger would be a good idea - not that they are at all attractive and they may seem out of place, but they rather get the message across. If they were in green and white they could look a bit more tasteful (forgive the pun!). After all, there are 'no dogs' signs with a picture of a dog.

Judy