Is this really disrespectful?

[bruce]

Some years ago, whilst quietly minding my own business in a Somme cemetery, I observed a gentleman of a certain age, enter, walk straight to a particular headstone, and stand there for a moment in contemplation. He then withdrew a beer can from his knapsack, took a couple of swigs from it, and then emptied the contents onto the ground in front of the headstone.

Later in the day, our paths crossed again, and i asked him about his apparently wasteful behaviour. He explained that he was visiting his grandfather, who was known to like a drink. He never knew his grandad, but this is the nearest he can get to buying him a pint.

I was rather grateful I hadn't stepped in earlier in the day.

A respectful and poingant way of remembering a relative.

Bruce

[richardIII]

I too do not think there is anything wrong with your actions, in fact I was once told that cemeteries were designed so that people could eat their lunch etc. there. As long as it is respectful what you are doing seems fine to me and I will carry on doing the same,

Richard

[truthergw]

What you did was not motivated by an intention to show disrespect. On the other hand, the local lads larking around and drinking is generally accepted as being disrespectful. The problem then is for the casual observer to distinguish between a family drinking wine and youngsters drinking cans of beer. If there is a local problem, perhaps it is difficult to say where one type of behaviour shades off into the other. In the end, the decision is yours. If you feel that this is something you can do with a clear conscience then by all means, you should continue to do so. I have never done it but I can well imagine having a cuppa out of a flask on a hot or a cold day.

[Agh57]

I too do not think there is anything wrong with your actions, in fact I was once told that cemeteries were designed so that people could eat their lunch etc. there. As long as it is respectful what you are doing seems fine to me and I will carry on doing the same,

Richard

I'm sure this is true. I once recall reading that one of the reasons the CWGC wanted to cemeteries to look like English country gardens was to try and encourage visitors to picnic etc. Don't ask me where I read it though.

[blighty valley]

I have 2 hip flasks with me when on the battlefields, one with whisky and one with rum, i have the whisky and lads get a tot of rum, I have been doing this for nearly 10 years now, at lunchtime we sit outside the cemetery to eat, but I have to say that some 16 years ago friends and my family all met at Lancashire dump on the Somme and sat with blankets and chairs and had drinks and cakes, it is not disrepectful as a teacher from Pascheandale once said when asked to remove the children from Tyne Cot cemetery "do you not think that the lads lying here would love to hear the sound of children playing?" My answer is yes, as was the person who had questioned her at the time,

We are not drunken louts, we are paying our respects,

Mandy x

[blighty valley]

I have been go to the western front for many years many of them with mandy we use to walk the battlefields and every day we use to have our lunch with the lads in the cemeterys always remembering the lads who where laid in the cemeterys with great respect i remember every 1st july we meet many friends in Lancashire dump on the somme we gatherd around and toasted all who give there lives for us long may this continue its a great way to thank all the lads for what they did for us michael

[centurion]

If wine is not out of place in a church service I cannot see how it can be out of place in a cemetery if taken in the right spirit. Its how you behave that counts not what or if you drink .

[ianw]

Personally, I would not drink in a cemetery but a picnic just outside the walls is fine by me.

I have also ate my lunch in foul weather in cemetery shelter "with the lads" and felt very much at home and among friends.

As has been said, it's all in the attitude.

[judy7007]

This has intrigued me. I have "picniced" all over Gallipoli, sometimes in full view, or even chatting with, CWGC gardeners. Can you elaborate at all.

To Steve - you have done nothing disrespectful and I would say just carry on as before.

Regards,

Jonathan S

Hi Johathan,

To elaborate - the signs are the green and white CWGC signs and I only saw them at Ari Burnu and Beach cemeteries, maybe because these cemeteries have tended to attract coach loads of picnickers. At Beach cemetery, we spread our backpacks and paper work, water bottles and a couple of bags of poppy tributes under a large tree and set about our task a short distance away. The CWGC gardener seemed to 'appear from nowhere' but was doubtless on his rounds. He walked past us and observed what we were doing, then walked over to our belongings and took more than a cursory glance.

regards

Judy

[judy7007]

Once again, thank you everyone. I have to confess that some self doubt had started to creep in and the last thing I would wish to do would be to trample on someone's deeply held sensitivities. This lady was so obviously caring and concerned for the welfare of the cemetery (it was Ramparts Cemetery) that it was a pretty surreal experience in that we all seemed to be concerned for the respect and sanctity of the place, but were seeing the thing from completely different perspectives. I sincerely hope it was just a case of putting the mouth into gear before engaging the brain, something that we are all guilty of now and again.

I do wish I could get in touch with her, if only to try to have a calm and rational conversation about the incident, all I know is that she was a member of the local British Legion. This has been troubling me since it happened.

As you have mentioned the local British Legion, I do know from my conversations with a resident of Ieper that the group has been working and campaigning extremely hard to bring to the attention of certain authorites in Ieper the importance of maintaining a respectful atmosphere in the CWGC cemeteries. As I understand it, their campaign was instrumental in bringing about the 'no dog' signs. I am quite sure that she would have no hesitation in saying something to a person whose behaviour she regarded as disrespectful in a CWGC cemetery and that it wouldn't be a 'spur of the moment' thing. She feels passionately about this (as do others there - so you could have met any one of them).

Judy

[Steve Gullick]

Hi Judy

I agree. I am very pleased that local groups take such an interest and care so much about this. I am also quite certain that if she has thought about it since, that she would realise that people like us travel hundreds of miles to visit these places because we also care passionately about them. We are not going to all the trouble of getting there in order to be in any way disrespectful of the place - that would make no sense at all.

I would imagine that the Lady concerned has had a bad experience previously and was expecting 'trouble', this may have coloured her attitude and she assumed that we were 'guilty' before she even spoke to us.

All pretty sad really.

[healdav]

But don't leave the empty bottle behind.

[SiegeGunner]

I've never picknicked or drunk alcohol in a cemetery (but would, in the right circumstances), but I do often smoke while walking around. I carry a small tin in my pocket to stub my cigarettes out in. On one occasion someone came up and said that smoking was disrespectful, and I replied that I would not be surprised to hear a voice saying "Give us a drag, mate, I haven't had a smoke in years".

[DaveBrigg]

You're not the first to sit and contemplate in a cemetery.

"Well how do you do Private William McBride,

Do you mind if I sit here down by your graveside?

And rest for awhile beneath the warm summer sun,

I've been walking all day and now I'm nearly done"

[armourersergeant]

Nothing wrong with what you did, carry on.

Seem to recall eating aside a cemetery on one of the Pals tours. As for children not allowed in cemeteries as mentioned above...what a load of poo! What were they fighting for then!

She may well feel strongly about it, and good on her for doing so, however she should also have stopped to listen to you explain. I guess she saw you and the bottle and thought, hello here we go.

Regards

[Peter Bennett]

I have had many a picnic both alone and with my wife in a War Cemetery and we always clean up every crumb afterwards. I see nothing wrong in a glass of wine or a bottle of beer, although as I am always the driver I abstain until the evening.

One time when I was visiting the Le Touret Memorial in 2004 there was a full-blown wedding reception going on, I didn't notice any champagne etc. being consumed, it looked more like a photoshoot. I had mixed views on the matter at the time, mainly regarding respect to the fallen but if there was no residue left then who am I to judge.

What is disconcerting is finding piles of bottles, cans, fag-ends and other garbage in the grounds and shelters of War Cemeteries. Perhaps the lady in question might feel disposed to lay in wait at night and catch these perpetrators red-handed.

[Will O'Brien]

Seem to recall eating aside a cemetery on one of the Pals tours.

Arm. It was Langemark. I vividly remember toasting the fallen with a Paschendale beer.

[Jonathan Saunders]

As you have mentioned the local British Legion, I do know from my conversations with a resident of Ieper that the group has been working and campaigning extremely hard to bring to the attention of certain authorites in Ieper the importance of maintaining a respectful atmosphere in the CWGC cemeteries.

Rather than cemeteries there time might be better spent "policing" Menin Gate after dark. As far as Ypres town is concerned this seems to be where the real problem lies.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Matt Dixon]

I quite agree, nothing wrong with what you have done.

I had a splended picnic at Le Trou Aid Post CWGC, in the sun, with the willows swaying in the breeze. A fine place to stop.

I think a wee dram or whatever is in no way disrespectful, and there's nothing wrong with toasting a memory.

[stevem49]

You are only responsible for your own actions and not others. If they have a problem with what you do, then that is their problem. Ignore and carry on regardless.

The cemeteries may be sacred ground but they ain't consecrated ground.

Steve M

[Steve Gullick]

As a matter of interest does anyone know what the CWGC take on this is? Are there any rules or regs. regarding this at all?

Thanks

[centurion]

You are only responsible for your own actions and not others. If they have a problem with what you do, then that is their problem. Ignore and carry on regardless.

The cemeteries may be sacred ground but they ain't consecrated ground.

Steve M

What's the difference? Do you have a definition of sacred ground? Regarding consecrated ground given that communion and mass can use wine in consecrated places I can't see a technical objection to it in cemetaries

[matthew lucas]

have had a drink or something to it, sat and read ,thinking of it all many, many times when i lived o the somme, and will do so again. Was not however too keen on a small French group with dog in tow all over Thiepval memorial, even letting said mutt pee on the memorial....or having 'secruity' at Beaumnt Hamel run over to us, as a child in my party had sat down on the grass, shouting for him to get up, and it was not allowed, now when you have travelled many miles to se where one of your relatives is buried...again i know which i think is disrespectful!

matt

[geoff2050]

What's the difference? Do you have a definition of sacred ground? Regarding consecrated ground given that communion and mass can use wine in consecrated places I can't see a technical objection to it in cemetaries

I agree with this post .

If I was asked to toast the fallen in a cemetery or picnic or see anyone doing this.

I for one would not object.

Unfortunately some of our cemeteries in the UK are abused by gangs of drinker's.

But like one of the earlier posts I have seen someone have a drink at their Dad,s grave on his birthday.

[anthw]

Not just gangs of drinkers,

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/Thug-sets-up-camp-in.6433765.jp