Is this really disrespectful?

[lionboxer]

The biggest or worst disrespect is to not even acknowledge a cemetery and those within it. As with most things it's not always the deed but the manner and intention it was carried out in. People's perceptions of what's acceptable and what isn't will alway's vary. Personally I can see nothing wrong with having a drink or bite to eat at the grave of a relation or any other person that you've made the effort to come and see. Life goes on and the fact that we can eat and drink wherever we want is due to these men's sacrifice.

Lionboxer

[ianw]

These cemeteries must inevitably get less "raw" as the years go by. There was a recent excellent thread on the 1928 Pilgrimage when pilgrims were visiting the graves of sons, brothers, husbands and mates. We now visit the graves of men typically with at least one "Great" defining our relationship with them. We may have known their sons and daughters. They are historical figures, still respected but getting more distant. It is appropriate to celebrate their part in the great sequence that your family is but remember respectfully how their loss brought profound sadness nearly a century ago.

Whether you feel yourself in the right or not, I suppose it is common courtesy to adjust your behaviour if it is upsetting someone else in a cemetery - if only to avoid any possibility of an unseemly scene which in itself would be worse than the incident that may have caused it.

[Martin Brown]

Well done in making a fitting tribute. I doubt Pte Mather was tee total and would have enjoyed a slug from your flask.

John.

For info, Pte Mather was a prize-winning wine-maker and the family told me that he had owned "a few pubs" too. He is recorded as Presbyterian (if memory serves) but it seems not to have presented an ethical or theological bar to him. So no problem with a toast at the funeral!

[Guest chinny]

no way

[SiegeGunner]

no way

Could you perhaps elaborate a little, Chinny, as I doubt if I am the only one who doesn't immediately recognise what 'no way' refers to.

[auchonvillerssomme]

No way would we not have a drink?

[532SQN]

My wife and I will be having a picnic lunch with the appropriate beverages at my Uncles grave site in Adegem Belgium it is not often that he has visitors from Canada . The flask will also be on parade. We even add a little dirt from the family farm that he was born on so there is a little bit of home there for him.

Cheers

Rick

[peterhogg]

no way

If I am correct the expression, at least in my neck of the woods is just a way of expressing surprise, like "wow".

"No way!"

"Way."

[Andy Wade]

It's an answer to the original question posed:

Question: Is this disrespectful? (Drinking a glass of wine in a cemetery)

Answer: No Way.

Or... I'm wrong.

[peterhogg]

No way.

I read these posts with interest today and I think some good points or observations were made by all. Sadly, and not presuming to speak for everyone, I think we comprise a captive audience in the sense that our primary concern when visiting a CWGC cemetery is to act with decorum and show respect. Having a discrete swig or making a little toast is not the beginning of the slippery slope. The problems lies with crass louts like the ones using the cemetery as a flop-house, a dog-run or a day-care facility. Really, using a headstone as a drink stand reveals a level or crassness that is breathtaking. People like that, of course, are likely oblivious to their own embarrassing behaviour and ignorance and always will be, the aggravating factor being their hostility in response to someone pointing out the obvious---this isn't a truck stop and you lot are yobs.

I have been fortunate in that my last two extended stays in France were in October and November, by design. And it is no exaggeration that in all the cemeteries I visited, in the Somme region, I rarely saw another person. That was a product, of course, of the time of year and the weather, which I found delightfully wet and forbidding. (Or hordes of binging picknickers caught wind I was coming and fled--I have that affect on people; it's a gift) Redan Ridge is wonderful that time of year, and the fields are clear. The only behaviour I observed were the French shooting everything that moved except me and they always waved and smiled---in a good way, I mean

And even at the more "popular" spots, such as Thiepval, i saw nothing in the way of behaviour that made me cringe nor filled me with anger. No doubt the summer may be a different sotry.

And i like to believe people will generally behave well. Let's face it, even for the uninitiated, the first visit to a war cemetery can be overwhelming and leaves most at a loss for words. i know it happens from time to time that some people will show up and wreck the moment, but I am grateful i have never had to observe such incidents.

Here are my rules---not saying they are right or wrong and to each his own:

1. I might have a smoke but always seated on a low wall and will field strip the remains. (sadly, robbed of that little pleasure through deciding to quit.)

2. I've never actually eaten inside any cemetery. That's just me. I might have a sandwich in my car but that's it. I just don't feel "right" about that, but others do and that's fine with me. There are pleasant alcoves and stone benches where that would seem to me quite appropriate.

3. Have had a beer at the far end of Danzig Alley cemetery at dusk taking in what Middlebrook I think coined "the horseshoe of woods" and took the can with me. (i always have a day-pack for maps, books, etc..) Usually I don't drink as i am driving, and, but I'd take in that view again and when people are discrete, it's fine.

Hopefully this coming November I can return and break all three. (kidding) I will be the biggish fellow with a winning and gregarious way that makes children cry, operating yet another doomed rental car covered in mud, usually missing a side-view mirror and otherwise reduced to a shambles in a matter of a few days under my careful driving.

cheers all

[RBK1]

It's the contents of your heart, not your glass, that matter.

That, and the obvious intent and integrity of your visit, are the only criteria that prevail.

Long may you continue to enjoy the goodly company of these men and salute them with your presence.

[Piorun]

If a tot of rum was good enough for the lads then, a glass or two of wine is good enough to pay our respects now. Antony

[chrislock]

Agreed but that is not the point here! The CWGC rules and regulations state what you can do and cannot do in one of their CWGC cemeteries.

Some it seems will continue to do as they see fit and I understand that. We are what we are however, that is up to you but don't be surprised if you use a soldiers headstone as a back rest whilst using his headstone as a table and are then challenged by the gardeners, well meaning locals or other visitors.

The rules of the CWGC are quite clear.

If you ask the CWGC for a copy, then I'm sure they will send you a copy.

Please don't get upset over the rules and regs of this marvelous organisation, they are simply required to protect the cemeteries and the men laying within them.

By the way, I am also more than happy to toast them likewise at their grave sides but we are talking about more than simply a toast here.

Best wishes

Chris.

[Deerhunter]

Not really disrespectful in my view. Last year I stopped off at Tidworth miiltary cemetery and saw the grave a junior NCO who had fairly recently died. His mates from the Cpls mess had left similar tributes

Remember people for what they were, not what we think they should have been.

TR

Terry, nail-on-head comment there, well said.

Rgds

DD

[Deerhunter]

It's the contents of your heart, not your glass, that matter.

That, and the obvious intent and integrity of your visit, are the only criteria that prevail.

Long may you continue to enjoy the goodly company of these men and salute them with your presence.

Again, very well said. I normally have driven whenever we have visited the battlefields, but will now include a miniature for the end-of-the-day walk out.

DD

[Guest Tommie Ray]

It was much more common than today, particularly in areas where Methodism was a strong influence (although there's still quite a number of us who don't drink for various reasons).

Re Pte Mather, He was a vintner, part of his job description methinks

[532SQN]

Hi all we have just arrived back from a excellent visit to the Somme were we met Mick (Auchinvillersomme) and his lovely wife Trish and will be sorting out some pictures that we took in the Somme,Flanders and Normandy.We express out profound gratitude to Mick and Trish as our trip was a dream come true for me.

We went to my Uncle Dicks grave in Adegem Belgium and had a picnic with him many of which he would never have on our family farm near Woodstock Ontario and toasted my hero L/Sgt William Richard Livesey. I hope the photo turns out I have been having all kinds of fun loading this one and there will be mre to come.

Cheers

Rick

[judy7007]

Last week my husband and I had a small picnic in Ploegsteert Wood cemetery, sitting on the concrete bench in this beautiful and peaceful cemetery and looking towards the headstone of Private Frederick Battams, 50th Battalion, AIF, the only Australian buried in this cemetery. It really did feel as if we were having a private gathering with him. We only had water to drink (travelling on foot and local bus and still a long way back to Ypres) but it was so meaningful to sit there a while and have a bite to eat and reflect.

Only one other couple walked by (they didn't enter the cemetery) but I have to say I found myself on the alert to stuff the food back in the backpacks in case they said anything. It was not so much a matter of 'fear', but I just didn't need anything that had potential to jolt the peace and solitude. So I'm pleased to have read this thread and to be aware of the CWGC rules. Then we can decide for ourselves.

This article is quite interesting. here

As the CWGC spokesman says: "The correct behaviour almost dictates itself - most of it is common sense. Visitors are expected to be responsible, dignified and have a respectful manner,"

Judy

[gillchadwick]

Several years ago we invited a friend and his father a Veteran of the 'D day landings' to stay with us here in Normandy

This was his first visit since 1944 and he was eager to see where his fallen pals had been buried.

To visit the cemeteries he was immaculately dressed in his blazer with Regimental badge of his Regiment ( Liverpool Scottish) and his Glengarry, he also wore his own and his Father's medals (also Liverpool Scottish WW1).

At each grave he placed a poppy cross, took out a his hip flask and partook of a wee dram with his pal then smartly saluted before moving on.

This was such a moving gesture.

Gill

[Jonathan Saunders]

Hi all we have just arrived back from a excellent visit to the Somme were we met Mick (Auchinvillersomme) and his lovely wife Trish and will be sorting out some pictures that we took in the Somme,Flanders and Normandy.We express out profound gratitude to Mick and Trish as our trip was a dream come true for me.

We went to my Uncle Dicks grave in Adegem Belgium and had a picnic with him many of which he would never have on our family farm near Woodstock Ontario and toasted my hero L/Sgt William Richard Livesey. I hope the photo turns out I have been having all kinds of fun loading this one and there will be mre to come.

Cheers

Rick

We can see the photo just fine. I might pull you up on the lack of a glass though ... ah Colonials

Regards,

Jonathan S

[chrislock]

Very interesting report indeed and there is the problem. We all have our own ideas and how we all interpret information and rightly so however, when our own ideas clash with CWGC rules and regulations, by laws and the such, sometimes we can end up in trouble without even looking for it!

The CWGC rules are there in black and white. No picnics, drinking sessions etc etc however, personally I am more than happy to toast our relativesand the fallen on site and I also believe this would be acceptable to most but using headstones as glass table tops and as back rests will probably bring about confrontation!

We are what we are.

Chris.

[bluevanman]

Common sense prevails.What miffs me off is when visitors to cemeterys proceed to clear mud off there boots using the surrounding stonework.Certainly nothing wrong with a light lunch while taking in the ambiance of a cemetery.Bob.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I agree with you on that one, its quite common to see large lumps of mud scraped onto the Cross of Sacrifice base especially in Hawthorn Ridge No1.

[Pighills]

I put my hand up to having shared our lunch with the lads whilst we were there last week. It just seemed so right to do it. I have absolutely no doubts they wouldn't mind.

[chrislock]

I'm sure the lads wouldn't mind as you put it but what many of you are missing here, are the rules and regulations of the CWGC. There is a long list of what can be done and what cannot be done in CWGC's and picniking is one of the activities banned in their cemeteries. Not my rules but theirs and for that I would suggest you must accept and honor them. If not, then how can the CWGC enforce their rules and regulations in protecting the cemeteries in which our men rest in peace today if you only apply the rules which suit yourselves?

I fear the problem is today, that we all have differing views on what we can and cannot do, irrevelent as to the rules and regulations of the CWGC!

Chris.