Is this really disrespectful?

[Pighills]

If there were a list of rules and regulations available at the cemetery which I'd been able to read which told me 'picnicing' (although it was hardly that!) was not allowed I would certainly have adhered to the rules. I did not know it was expressly against the rules before I did it.

Please step forward all those people who have never ever in their lives done anything wrong.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I agree there is no indication of any rules or regulations in the majority of cemeteries, so the majority of visitors will treat the area with respect whether or not they have a tipple or a full blown picnic.

[chrislock]

If there were a list of rules and regulations available at the cemetery which I'd been able to read which told me 'picnicing' (although it was hardly that!) was not allowed I would certainly have adhered to the rules. I did not know it was expressly against the rules before I did it.

Please step forward all those people who have never ever in their lives done anything wrong.

Then I most definately cannot step forward but there is the problem; the rules are not generally available on site so in their absense, we then apply our own rules and regulations. Perhaps the time has come for the CWGC to aply these rules on site be it inside the Register Cupboards or via notice board as the French often do!

Just a thought.

[judy7007]

Hi All

Just out of interest to read the regulations and obtain a copy, I rang the enquiries section of the CWGC in Maidenhead) to ask them to forward one (or see if it was on their website) and the person I spoke to (and their colleagues) are not aware of any such rules, but said they rather hope that 'people will act respectfully'. They did wonder if these rules might be available from the office in Belgium (and perhaps be applicable in that area? - italics are my thoughts

Judy

[auchonvillerssomme]

Perhaps the CWGC don't identify this as a problem, this is a discussion on this forum, I've not seen it mentioned anywhere else. I would be interested to know how many communications they have had telling them or complaining that visitors are drinking in cemeteries or come to that what they could do about it.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I found this, obviously relating to Hong Kong but surely international.

http://www.legislation.gov.hk/blis_pdf.nsf/6799165D2FEE3FA94825755E0033E532/5FB554B402AE9661482575EE0042689C/$FILE/CAP_132J_e_gb.pdf

[judy7007]

The CWGC also state they will send rules and regulations sheet to all on request.

I just thought the sheet might be interesting to read. I am delaying doing other important tasks and am getting too pedantic!

[chrislock]

Perhaps the CWGC don't identify this as a problem, this is a discussion on this forum, I've not seen it mentioned anywhere else. I would be interested to know how many communications they have had telling them or complaining that visitors are drinking in cemeteries or come to that what they could do about it.

Obviously they do as per their rules!

I have a set as supplied from the CWGC Office in Elverdingestraat Ypres. The rules and regulations of the CWGC cemeteries were confirmed by Royal Charter in 1987 but of course amendments may have been applied since then.

The best thing you can do as always is contact them and ask them!

[judy7007]

The 'rules and regulations sheet on request' mentioned above would have to be obtained from Ypres I think. The CWGC office here didn't know anything about it.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Obviously they do as per their rules!

I have a set as supplied from the CWGC Office in Elverdingestraat Ypres. The rules and regulations of the CWGC cemeteries were confirmed by Royal Charter in 1987 but of course amendments may have been applied since then.

The best thing you can do as always is contact them and ask them!

Why obviously? If the rules have been in place for some time then perhaps they need reviewing, but its not up to me to audit the CWGC.

[willy]

Whilst attending a large event in the square at Nieuwkerke, i asked where the toilets were, i was directed to the local churchyard!, having a quiet drink and a bite to eat in a CWGC cemetery is in my humble opinion fine, however there have been instances of problems in some of the urban cemeteries, usually this is the local teenagers, so hence some people can be a little prickly about anyone drinking in them.

I admit to sharing a bottle of bier in more than one with the gardners and other visitors over the years, with no problems at all.

[Greyhound]

I can see why having a picnic might be frowned upon, but then my idea of a Picnic is much more than, say, a sandwich and a can of Sprite.

Can't see anything wrong with eating a small snack while resting awhile on the bench or in the shelter often thoughtfully provided. (As long as no litter is left, goes without saying). But that's not what I would define as a picnic.

[Steve Gullick]

The more I think about it, the more I agree with chrislock.

The rules are there for a reason - its not to stop thoughtful people wanting to pay their respects in their own way, its for the clodheads who would abuse the places.

Perhaps there may be room for a small change in the regulations? Who would we have to talk to/

[24463988]

I am not ashamed to admit that when my gang of pilgrims visited the grave of John Kipling, we all ate one of those "Exceedingly Good Cakes" in his honour. It seemed fitting. We work on the basis that Great War soldiers had a sense of humour. Some of us having been soldiers and sailors, we think we have some insight.

Enjoy your wine.

MB

[Dawley Jockey]

Once whilst visiting Ypres with a Kiwi friend we visited Polygon Wood cemetery and memorial and on entering meet with a group of Australian serving Officers (over in Ypres to arrange a ceremony at the Menin Gate). These Officers where having a small picnic with their wives and asked us to join them in raising a glass in rememberance of all the brave ANZAC's remembered there.

I have visited the Western Front cemeteries many,many times and it just struck me as the right thing to do at the time, with the company I was with and the location I was at and not disrespectful at all, In fact I felt honoured in raising a glass in memory of these brave men.

May I add that this small picnic & raised glass tribute took place near the entrance/cemetery perimeter wall, where it widens out and away from any headstone.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

............ there is the problem; the rules are not generally available on site so in their absense, we then apply our own rules and regulations. Perhaps the time has come for the CWGC to aply these rules on site be it inside the Register Cupboards or via notice board as the French often do! ..........

Please dont encourage CWGC to put even more inappropriate signage in any of their cemeteries - their department of signing the blindingly obvious(*) have committed enough visual vandalism already (*the way in, at many cemeteries).

.................. And with regards to this topic more specifically - does anybody here really believe that a GWF battlefield visitor would deliberately act disrespectfully inside a cemetery ? - If perchance one did then they would be a mental retard, and that cannot be legislated against. I'd suggest that almost all "disrespect", littering, and vandalism inflicted on CWGC cemeteries is caused by local low-intelligence-units ..... same types we have in this country doing the same sort of thing.

Tom

[chrislock]

And the answer to your question is yes some do!

The reason that the CWGC has rules and regulations is so they can react when disrespect is shown by whoever and if you believe it is not posible for any person who is a GWF member to do this, then you are sadly mistaken!

This thread came about because of a local CWGC admin worker who observed a group of British visitors, picnic-ing in the Ramparts CWGC, one of the group was using a headstone as a glass stand and also as a back rest. How many of us would do this?

Of course many thousands of visits are carried out by GWF members and all totally respectful but we are what we are and what is respectful to one person, may not be to another.

The fact of the matter is, the CWGC has rules and regulations designed to protect the cemeteries and if that prevents any deliberate disrespect taking place then I would defy anyone to not agree with this however, if some on this forum insist on doing what they themselves believe is acceptable behavior within a CWGC and one day they are then confronted by CWGC staff, then so be it. The rules are in place!

The rule book is there to protect the dead, no more, no less.

[Chris_Baker]

Chris, as a matter of interest would I be right in guessing that the rules also apply to the CWGC memorials such as the Menin Gate?

[auchonvillerssomme]

This thread came about because of a local CWGC admin worker who observed a group of British visitors, picnic-ing in the Ramparts CWGC, one of the group was using a headstone as a glass stand and also as a back rest. How many of us would do this?

Chris this is Setephens post that started this thread -

I very often visit a certain cemetary in Flanders. I have no-one buried there, my nearest departed KIA is in Peronne. However, I do like to visit this place in the evening and contemplate what it must have been like for the fallen, sometimes I just sit quietly with a book and sometimes I take a bottle of wine and a glass and drink to the memory of those who lie here. Some times I am on my own, sometimes with members of my family. I have to stress that we are very quiet and certainly want to do nothing more than pay our respects in our own way. I have been doing this for quite a while now.

However, last time we did this, we were on our own in the cemetary quietly enjoying its peace and the solitude, when we were confrunted by a Belgian Lady who, to put it mildly, was outraged that we were drinking a glass of wine in this sacred place. I did try to calm her down and, if I am honest, admire her passion for the place. Sadly, her outrage disturbed what was a most peaceful and tranquil time and it has really put me of visiting the place again.

I would value your opinions on this.

Thanks

There are a lot of posts and the one that described the person as a CWGC worker and that one of Stephens party was using a grave as a backrest and glass stand escapes me. Where is it? The only post I can find is yours all the way down at post 71, and it doesn't refer to Stephen.

[chrislock]

I most definately did not mention Stephen by name but I do know the lady who the post refers to and she is indeed an employee of the CWGC and she states what I have recently posted. Why should she make this up???

I suggest you confirm with Stephen ( if you must ) if one or some of his party was doing as she states? Maybe Stephen wasn't aware of this taking place? Maybe it was another party but I believe she did see this event take place but where is this going?

The facts are still the same.

The CWGC has rules and regulations to protect the cemeteries. What is the problem?

If you have a problem with this, then please go speak with the CWGC!

Hi Chris.

I would assume if the Memorial is the property of the CWGC then again rules and regulations apply ( Maybe a different set of rules for Memorials )

Not sure about the land they stand on though?

Cemeteries I believe are another story.

Maybe Terry or indeed Dave can pop up here and educate the some who need confirming on what the CWGC states you MAY and MAY NOT do within the boundaries of a CWGC.

Just because you do not agree with these rules or maybe because you wish to abide by these rules as you personaly see them is of no interest to me however, it may well be of interest to any passing CWGC employee or any on site employee.

Go ahead and do what you wish as some are stating but at the end of the day, ignorance is no defence to the law. Simple!

[chrislock]

Hi all.

Due to my total inability to post decent photos, for those here who know how to post photographs, please pm me your email addy and I will forward onto you email attachments, photographs of the current CWGC rules and regulations document for uploading onto this forum thread.

The CWGC rules and regulations make fascinating reading!

Chris.

[chrislock]

To Chris Baker.

Found it! According to the rules and regs, they apply to both CWGC cemeteries and to it's memorials.

Another forum member has just pm'd me with his offer of assistance to upload the relevant rules and regulations pics.

Chris will upload them asap.

Fascinating stuff!

[Paul Reed]

If CWGC place such a heavy emphasis on these rules why aren't they in the public domain?

I've visited every CWGC office in Europe and never seen them, never seen them on the CWGC stand at history events and there is nothing on their website.

[Chris Foster]

[Chris Foster]