Is this really disrespectful?

[dfaulder]

I seem to remember seeing a "do and don'ts" board at the entrance to the walk up to the Delville Wood memorial (from the entrance opposite the cemetery).

I wish I had photographed it because some of it, if I remember correctly, some of it was a bit quaint.

David

[chrislock]

Chris

I for one quite often do not read the register books, usually having done most research that I wish to do before I visit, printed out plans, info etc. Others may choose not to read the books for other reasons. A notice on the board might catch some attention but also might not. It would certainly be a step forward from the present position (for most of us it seems), which is being totally unaware of the Regulation. It is clear that many are showing a great deal of respect as they have a drink and remember the lads. However some may have chosen not to do so if they knew of the regulations. Maybe one of those signs with a picture and an X through the cup and hamburger would be a good idea - not that they are at all attractive and they may seem out of place, but they rather get the message across. If they were in green and white they could look a bit more tasteful (forgive the pun!). After all, there are 'no dogs' signs with a picture of a dog.

Judy

It is quite clear the CWGC are having some problems in the cemeteries. You can now see no dogs signs outside of the cemeteries and more are going up as we speak. This subject also raises hackles with some but according to the gardeners they really are needed!

The CWGC are tackling this issue and I believe more signage may have to be applied in the future as the cemeteries become more busy and more visited just as the French do. As with anything, the cemeteries must be protected and I'm sure we all agree with this however, education can be subtle and where it cannot, then signage may be the only option where required but hey! I'm not a CWGC employee, I just live and work over here. Maybe now is the time to contact the CWGC and see what their plans are regarding the rules and regs bit etc, for all of our sakes!

Chris.

[Muerrisch]

Grumpy's private annotated list of F&F CWGC includes annotations P and p. with stars up to 4 ****

The former P is "good parking"

the latter p. indicates possible privacy round the back or somewhere behind the toolshed for the easement of the ladies.

Disrespect? Not a bit of it.

VNC appears to be working for me.

[Kate Wills]

There's one cemetery in Salonika that deserves 5 stars. The gardener invited us to use the facilies, including the shower if we wished!

[Muerrisch]

I do hate smarty-pants!

***** it is!

[Dickie]

the latter p. indicates possible privacy round the back or somewhere behind the toolshed for the easement of the ladies.

at least the latter is just a small p

[rendellers]

From all the evidence coming to light I think common sense has to apply. Yes from the information given we should not be picnicing in cemeteries but surely discretion is the better part of valour. Rather than get the CWGC to go to the expense of signage and applying the rules draconially everywhere respect locals' views where we now know there are problems such as Ieper and presumably other places of high populations and continue to behave discretely elsewhere.

I kow last summer on the Somme we'd have died of heat if we stayed in the car and in places risked being hit by combine harvesters or fast moving lorries elsewhere. having said that we didn't actually picnic inside cemeteries.

A toast I find quite acceptable (could it be a cultural thing religious convictions aside?)

.

Regards

Llindsey

[Steve Gullick]

We are now in 2010. Four years from now there is likeley to be a massive increase in visitors to these places in rememberance of the 100th anniversary of the war and it will go on for at least four years. The CWGC do need to be prepared for this influx for both the visitoers and the residents sake.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Steve, I totally agree with you! I have this morning checked with the CWGC and under their 1987 rules and regulations which are the current, it states it is against even civil law to picnic/eat/drink and a raft of other activities not permitted to take place in CWGC's and it gives members of the public powers to bring this information to offenders when required. It also states that the police may be called if the offence continues....

Harsh words indeed but not mine. The CWGC also state they will send rules and regulations sheet to all on request. If this being the case, I agree with Steve, maybe the time has arisen for these rules and regulations to be included in the cemetery register books or via an info board at the cemetery/memorial itself. This makes sense for all concerned I believe.

Chris.

How can the CWGC 'give' powers to members of the public and how do the members of the public so empowered exercise that power? Is there a script to remember or can you just say 'By the power given to me by the CWGC I am arresting you for drinking wine in a cemetery you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defense if you do not mention now, or when questioned something which you may later rely on in court any thing you do say may be inscribed in Portland stone'.

Mick

[chrislock]

For the children or the impaired here it literally means that you/us as members of the public can request person(s) to leave the cemetery enclosure if seen breaking CWGC rules and regulations. If they refuse, of course you are not going to arrest them!

It simply states if they refuse to leave or stop whatever they are doing, then the CWGC asks you to then call the police and as these rules have been put into place under civil law and signed by the King himself, then the police must respond!

Time to knock this one on the head I reckon! Then again, AV the simpleton, get your own CWGC set of rules and while you are at it, better get someone to bring them to you so they can read it for you.

Enjoy your glass of wine Steve but stake out a picnic and don't be surprised if somebody asks you to leave the cemetery.

Again, CWGC rules and regs, not mine.

Chris.

[auchonvillerssomme]

I apologise, that was childish, but you should have seen the original before I deleted

The only place I have seen locals taking refreshments (bottles of stella) in a cemetery was Roclincourt Military Cemetery at that time there was a lot of graffiti on the shelter walls, and the place just had an air of neglect although tended.

[John_Hartley]

Again, CWGC rules and regs, not mine.

Chris

Presumably this is just related to Belgium? If not, then I'm unsure how CWGC could make a wider statement about "civil law" in the many countries in which there are cemeteries.

Effectively, I again presume this is related to what, in the UK, we's call trespass. Whilst a civil matter in itself, there may be situations a landowner can request police assistance to remove someone who has no permission to be on the land. It's normally if removal is likely o result in a crime being committed (like assaulting a bailiff)

John

[Steve Gullick]

For the children or the impaired here it literally means that you/us as members of the public can request person(s) to leave the cemetery enclosure if seen breaking CWGC rules and regulations. If they refuse, of course you are not going to arrest them!

It simply states if they refuse to leave or stop whatever they are doing, then the CWGC asks you to then call the police and as these rules have been put into place under civil law and signed by the King himself, then the police must respond!

Time to knock this one on the head I reckon! Then again, AV the simpleton, get your own CWGC set of rules and while you are at it, better get someone to bring them to you so they can read it for you.

Enjoy your glass of wine Steve but stake out a picnic and don't be surprised if somebody asks you to leave the cemetery.

Again, CWGC rules and regs, not mine.

Chris.

Hi Chris

Now I know the rules I think it unlikely that we will be repeating the exercise!

I don't have a problem with it and I can well see the point that if one person starts it won't be long before the whole site becomes a picnic/party area. It was just a shame that the whole episode had to be so confruntational, a quiet word explaining the rules and her point of view would have been much better recieved - there was no need for upset on anyones part

[chrislock]

I apologise, that was childish, but you should have seen the original before I deleted

The only place I have seen locals taking refreshments (bottles of stella) in a cemetery was Roclincourt Military Cemetery at that time there was a lot of graffiti on the shelter walls, and the place just had an air of neglect although tended.

Mine was likewise in part but my original was even worse ha!

Vlamertinge Military also has the same problem. I now take a carrier bag with me when I visit my Uncle due to the amount of bottles, cans and burger wrappers to be found at times in the right hand pagoda or whatever it's called.

[chrislock]

Chris

Presumably this is just related to Belgium? If not, then I'm unsure how CWGC could make a wider statement about "civil law" in the many countries in which there are cemeteries.

Effectively, I again presume this is related to what, in the UK, we's call trespass. Whilst a civil matter in itself, there may be situations a landowner can request police assistance to remove someone who has no permission to be on the land. It's normally if removal is likely o result in a crime being committed (like assaulting a bailiff)

John

Hi John.

Not sure but obviously the time has arisen for someone from the CWGC to explain the rules and law to us in laymans terms especially for my benefit! I have a rules and regulations copy and it simply states what has already has been covered. How we understand this document is another matter. I would also imagine France and the UK are very different regarding their own legislation.

Chris.

[Dragon]

if one person starts it won't be long before the whole site becomes a picnic/party area.

I remember visiting a large French WW1 cemetery one weekend. It was lunchtime and a lot of families were opening up their picnics and uncorking their wine sitting around the grave of a family member. It had an inclusive feel to it. Although I personally would have felt inappropriate doing it, I assumed that different cultures have different practices. I suppose what I found difficult was the joyous nature of the family parties sitting in a huge field of bodies, but it was obviously an accepted thing because so many people were eating picnics close to their ancestor.

Gwyn

[chrislock]

Hi Chris

Now I know the rules I think it unlikely that we will be repeating the exercise!

I don't have a problem with it and I can well see the point that if one person starts it won't be long before the whole site becomes a picnic/party area. It was just a shame that the whole episode had to be so confruntational, a quiet word explaining the rules and her point of view would have been much better recieved - there was no need for upset on anyones part

Hi Steve.

Good point and I agree with you! Maybe as Judy and a few others have touched on is the time has arrived for the rules and regs to be displayed at the Cemetery and Memorial enclosures themselves. I know from previous dealings with the CWGC, they are very reluctant to apply signage but at locations where a problem becomes a big problem, then they will act as we can now all see reference the "No Dogs Signs" going up everywhere. Responsible dog owners are now paying the price for those who let their dogs leg up against the headstones and likewise burn away the beautiful lawns so patiently looked after by the gardeners themselves! I do however fear you have unfortunately brought an issue to light that most of us were unaware of up to now. The vast majority of us would never dream of leaving bottles, cans and food wrappers around the cemeteries but some do, often in certain locations and I know the Ramparts does have this particular problem from time to time. I walk past this cemetery almost every day and have on several occasions picked up carrier bags full of pic nic and beer cans/bottles etc.

Where a problem becomes an issue, I'm sure like any organisation the CWGC will have to or will eventually react. That is how it works!

Now wheres my hip flask.....

[judy7007]

I do think at the cemeteries where there is likely to be a problem (large numbers of visitors), signage is appropriate. As mentioned earlier, I certainly know that large green and white CWGC signs are erected at the entrances to Ari Burnu Cemetery and Beach Cemetery at Gallipoli saying that no picnics are allowed. I did not see the signs anywhere else on the Gallipoli peninsula (and I visited most, if not all of the cemeteries on my two visits there). I also hardly saw another person in any of the other cemeteries out there, whereas Beach and Ari Burnu were filled with people from coach tours. After a 5 hour trip from Istanbul, these quiet havens could undoubtedly seem like an ideal place for a picnic - so signs seem essential in this case. Perhaps signage should be considered wherever large crowds may congregate (Tyne Cot, or indeed the Ramparts, being so close to Ypres and being so beautiful that I can see that sitting there and having a drink or meal would be reflective to many of us).

To those who endeavour to keep these cemeteries reflective and places of commemoration we can only be thankful. However it is certainly interesting to hear of the powers we have been given by the CWGC to tell others off. I personally am not very good at that sort of thing.

Judy

[BJanman]

Now I know the rules I think it unlikely that we will be repeating the exercise!

For what it's worth, I think it is sad that the incident is now going to stop you paying your respects in your own special way.

I understand the argument here about not turning cemeteries into picnic areas, however I was in the company of three veterans once when the group I travel with entered a cemetery and there was a group of French teenagers sitting under a tree, quietly talking and eating their lunch. The veterans went up to them and started chatting to them. When they had finished chatting the teenagers packed up their stuff and quietly left so that the group could continue what we went there to do. The veterans did not believe they were being disrespectful, and that's good enough for me.

I don't think there is one cemetery that I have visited on the Western Front where I have not had a cigarette whilst walking around reading the grave markers. I have never left a dog end and never will. Why - because it is something I would never do, not because some busybody has said it is something I should never do. Sorry but if someone come up to me and said it is disrespectful to smoke in a cemetery, as they did Mick (Siege Gunner), then I would be inclined to tell them to mind their own business.

Personally I think it is disrespectful that people clap under the Menin Gate but others obviously don't, so they clap and I don't and everyone is happy.

Barbara

[Ian C]

I will be on the Somme for three days in August with wife, eighteen year old son, (who is just about to graduate from the Army Foundation College at Harrogate) and five year old son. No. 1 son is a veteran of many visits but for No.2 this will be his first trip and will, I hope, start the process of instilling in him a lifetime of interest in the Great War (and History in general). It will of course include visits to a number of cemeteries, where he will be allowed to be a five year old, but where he will also be taught respect for where we are, I had already decided that part of the process would be to have a quite lunch in one of the cemeteries and nothing I have seen in this thread has changed my mind about that.

I can understand that picnics in some cemeteries could cause a problem, but for the small out of the way places that hardly see a visitor from one week to the next I can't see a problem.

IanC

[SiegeGunner]

Sorry but if someone come up to me and said it is disrespectful to smoke in a cemetery, as they did Mick (Siege Gunner), then I would be inclined to tell them to mind their own business.

... I do often smoke while walking around. I carry a small tin in my pocket to stub my cigarettes out in. On one occasion someone came up and said that smoking was disrespectful, and I replied that I would not be surprised to hear a voice saying "Give us a drag, mate, I haven't had a smoke in years".

The person who came up to me was reproachful rather than belligerent, so a more robust response was not necessary.

Mick

[nigelcave]

I must admit to having my picnic regularly in a cemetery, usually using the shelter or benches provided (le Trou is a particular favourite). Obviously no disrespect is intended (though it may be taken); it just seems a natural thing to do, especially when you are in the middle of nowhere.

[squirrel]

My uncle is remembered at Le Trou Aid Post and I have had my lunch there on more than one occasion - also had lunch at London Cemetery High Wood, The Quarry at Loos and at Lapugnoy where my father's cousin is buried.

As long as you don't litter the cemeteries and behave in a suitably restrained manner then I honestly cannot see any harm in it and I certainly do not feel that it is disrespectful.

As Nigel says, these places are in the middle of nowhere so it is not as if there is an alternative unless you enjoy sitting in your vehicle outside the cemetery and eating your lunch.

[Terry_Reeves]

Not really disrespectful in my view. Last year I stopped off at Tidworth miiltary cemetery and saw the grave a junior NCO who had fairly recently died. His mates from the Cpls mess had left similar tributes

Remember people for what they were, not what we think they should have been.

TR

[Kitty VAD]

Interesting that someone asked how things were when they were first established.

My grandmother wrote in her diary of their initial visit to see my relatives name on the memorial at Thiepval shortly before WW2, she said that they took a picnic lunch and everyone, including the driver sat and ate in the grounds.

When I visited in 2002 it was a Sunday Lunchtime and as well as lots of families picnicing quietly, there were folks picking mushrooms etc. I liked it and it reminded me of a lovely piece of artwork that I saw in The Netherlands relating to Market Garden, whereby the spirit of a fallen soldier is watching a child play around the headstones.

I have also, in my collection of photographs a photograph of a young lady seated next to a headstone of her brother, an E Yorks Private and there are two mugs on the floor, as though they had been having a cuppa whilst chatting to their loved one.

I'm sure the Belgian lady meant well, she is probably sick of cleaning up the mess of others, shame she couldn't see your honourable intentions.

K