Zeebrugge Raid 1918

[domwalsh]

Thanks Chris. Not sure I've seen that exact angle

[Dave pledger]

On 21/08/2012 at 10:03, domwalsh said:

Interestingly, one of Capt Palmer's men later (quite a few years later) claimed that he had tried to alert Palmer that the recall had been sounded and that they should get back to the Vindictive. He alleges that Palmer was drunk and sent him away with a flea in his ear. This Private (who made it back to the ship in time) blamed Palmer for the resultant departure of the Vindictive without a dozen or so Plymouth men and their subsequent incarceration as POWs.

Can this be true? I'm sure quite a few of those who took part in the raid partook of some Dutch courage ahead what was accepted as a suicide mission, though I'd be surprised if Palmer would have been rewarded with a DSC if he'd been drunk and behaved irresponsibly. I guess we'll never know the truth of the matter.

I actually knew John Palmer rather well, as did my father. He was a man of the utmost integrity. I still miss him

[domwalsh]

On 23/03/2022 at 00:50, Dave pledger said:

I actually knew John Palmer rather well, as did my father. He was a man of the utmost integrity. I still miss him

Hi Dave.

By all accounts he was a very popular man. But he definitely had a problem with drink. In 1920 he was tried by court martial for being unfit for duty. He was found not guilty of drunkenness but guilty of acting to the prejudice of military discipline.  He was sentenced to lose his seniority, a severe punishment. His record of service also refers to alcoholism, which he was admitted to hospital for. He died only seven years after Zeebrugge in 1925, which may have been connected to his drinking, but that's a guess on my part. I haven't searched for a death certificate  which may give us the answer. 

Cheers

Dom

Edited 24 March , 2022 by domwalsh

[Dave pledger]

Sad but Interesting. I like to focus on people's positives.  The John Palmer I knew may have been different. He helped plan the raid. I have a commemorative bell from the raid that was issued to him. 

[domwalsh]

7 hours ago, Dave pledger said:

Sad but Interesting. I like to focus on people's positives.  The John Palmer I knew may have been different. He helped plan the raid. I have a commemorative bell from the raid that was issued to him. 

He was clearly a brave and well loved officer, but the impact of the war may have driven him to seek solace in alcohol. It does not detract from his undoubted qualities, but may help to explain his somewhat troubled and sadly all too short life. He was only 40

[Hevans]

My great Uncle was George Arthur Osborne who was killed at Zeebrugge. He is mentioned on the village war memorial in Kingskerswell where the family originated, there is also a memorial to him in the churchyard. His parents are buried nearby along with their grandson who would have been George's nephew.

 

I have attached some recent photos (10/10/22) of his parents' grave, the war memorial in Kingskerswell and the memorial to him in the hurchyard.

 

I note that there have been a number of conversations on here about George and that domwalsh has his medal. Not sure how it ended up with him and not family, apologies if you are family but would appreciate knowing a bit more about the medal and any photographs of it.

 

Thank you, Hilary Evans 

 

[domwalsh]

Hi there. 

I bought George Arthur Osborne's trio perhaps 40 years ago from an American collector. I have a photo of what I'm 90% certain is him. I'll dig it out.

[Hevans]

I would really appreciate anything you can share with regards to George, my mum passed away earlier this year and I think she may have been in touch previously about his medals. As yet not found any photos, a photo and description of the medals would also be amazing, Hilary 

[domwalsh]

On 16/12/2022 at 08:52, Hevans said:

I would really appreciate anything you can share with regards to George, my mum passed away earlier this year and I think she may have been in touch previously about his medals. As yet not found any photos, a photo and description of the medals would also be amazing, Hilary 

If you would DM me your email address  I will see what I can find.

[domwalsh]

On 26/02/2018 at 14:34, Guest said:

Hello. My Grandfather was William Gladstone Cleaver, crew member of the C3 sub at Zeebrugge 1918. I would appreciate any information regards his service and if possible photographs as what I know of him is limited only to the the fact he is buried at Warwick cemetery, died in his 80's and my Father was one of his three children (now deceased). The only photo I have of him is with his wife and in his later years. I would like to trace my Paternal ancestry in the future also and will welcome any pointers on how to do this. Regards, Hilary 

Hi there.

I've a horrible feeling I never replied to this! I can only apologise. I have photos!

Do please DM me.

Regards and apologies again.

Dom

[domwalsh]

5 minutes ago, domwalsh said:

Hi there.

I've a horrible feeling I never replied to this! I can only apologise. I have photos!

Do please DM me.

Regards and apologies again.

Dom

Here's a photo of Cleaver and his C3 colleagues. Not sure which he is, but the names are identified somewhere so I can easily supply

[domwalsh]

On 26/02/2018 at 14:34, Guest said:

Hello. My Grandfather was William Gladstone Cleaver, crew member of the C3 sub at Zeebrugge 1918. I would appreciate any information regards his service and if possible photographs as what I know of him is limited only to the the fact he is buried at Warwick cemetery, died in his 80's and my Father was one of his three children (now deceased). The only photo I have of him is with his wife and in his later years. I would like to trace my Paternal ancestry in the future also and will welcome any pointers on how to do this. Regards, Hilary 

Another photo - with names

C3 Crew.doc.pdf

[Keith_history_buff]

On 26/08/2008 at 23:24, Regulus 1 said:

Alan, having seen reports on both sides of the story, I would dare to say, never happened. Last flamethrower was probably destroyed when Lt. Eastlake wanted to use it and it was shot to pieces when HMS Vindictive was alongside the Mole.

I did read another account on the matter of the flamethrowers but will have to look it up.

I was wondering what the German sources state. I came across the following elsewhere.
 

Quote

The gangways/landing bridges were actually too short. And it was not really realistic that the Daffodil and Iris could put their men on the Mole of Zeebrugge. The number of English raiders on the Mole was rather small. Some figures speak of 40 to 50! Maybe 60.

Was it the case that only 50 or so men disembarked from HMS Iris II after the assembly areas took a direct hit? Given there were 200 men of the Seamen Storming Party, plus the 4th Royal Marine Battalion, the number does seem low, in terms of the total men disembarked upon the mole.
 

[Howard]

It may be of interest to look at the 3 Zeebrugge maps on TrenchMapper. If you right click and choose Map ID Jump then use the IDs below, they pop up.

Howard

Name: Zeebrugge
Sheet: 5 SW 1
Scale: 1:10,000
Edition: 1A Apr 1918
German Trenches corrected to February 3, 1918. Printed 3/02/1918
Id: m_001125

Name: Official History - De Hann to Dutch border, Zeebrugge
Sheet: 4 & 5 & 12 [parts of]
Scale: 1:20,000
Naval Staff (GTD) CB 1524. Map 6 Coastal defences, batteries etc.
Id: m_80_000068

Name: Official History Coastal defences, Zeebrugge
Sheet: 5 [parts of]
Scale: 1:10,000
Edition: Jan 1920
Naval Staff (GTD) CB 1524. Map 2 Coastal defences, batteries etc.
Id: m_80_000067

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Lake (2002), p.166

 

Quote

The narrative account is also very clear that 450[sic] men, the full complement of Vindictive's storming parties reached the Mole. It is true enough that the approved account confesses that only two [of HMS Vindictive's] landing brows operated but this, in turn, was presented as an extra proof of the gallantry of the men who went ashore.

As we have seen, though, the losses on board Vindictive on her approach to the target were horribly high. Survivors told the same tale time and time again - 'only 12 out of 40 got to their feet' or 'we were the only three out of a team of eight'. Even allowing for exaggeration, even assuming mistakes, such comments suggest a minimum casualty rate of forty per cent amongst the storming parties. It is very likely that little more than 200 Marines and seamen made it onto the Mole. 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

 

 

 

  A further mention of gas at Zeebrugge.

Quote

Harry Adams was a member of the demolition team and was one of four men who went below decks to assist. 'Four of us went down below and racked out these boxes of [Stokes mortar] shells and passed them up for others to pass over the side and whilst down there, we had a German shell pay us a visit - luckily it didn't explode, but left us a filthy load of gas.' This gas would afflict Harry Adams health for the rest of his life. Over the following two decades Harry was hospitalised eight times as a result of the gas attack.

Paul Kendall (2008)
The Zeebrugge Raid 1918: 'The finest feat of arms'
Chapter 5: 'May we give the dragon's tail a damned good twist'