Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe

[chrislock]

Hi Bruce! The statements that you make about the Diggers, I endorse whole heartedly! However, I feel I must respond accordingly, to your statements, about " Known only to God" and regarding Christian Burials etc! I, for one am athiest! It is my own decision, no more, no less! My Great Uncle's grave, does not have the Christian cross on the headstone, as do not have many of the tommies headstones, that we see throughout the battlefields. Many tommies were athiest! I feel it would be awful, to give a Christian burial and headstone to an athiest! Just imagine giving a Christian, a non Christian commital and headstone! These immortal statements, became, when generally, we were all considered Christian, by the authorities, of the time! A Christian burial for all? I hope not! Sometimes, I feel that the dead should stay where they fell! Amongst their comrades and enemies. True comrades in death. A band of brothers, for all eternity! Glad your trip was a good one mate! Chris.

[Bert Heyvaert]

in reply to bert

i believe you are an expert?

By no means I am an expert Bruce, and I am sorry if my posting led you to believe that. I have a degree in archaeology, but lack the extensive field experience of people like Patrick Van Wanzele. I think only people with an extensive experience in researching skeletons or a degree in osteology can call themselves experts in this matter.

well let me once again tell you my feelings and also from others you might just take note, who cares really about how the person who died lived we all no from history how people lived  and worked prior to ww1 so why examine humane remains found on battlefields do we really need to know if they ate poor diets and had any diseases or ailments prior to death 

I don't share your view that we know all from history how these people lived. I think we can learn a lot about the circumstances these people lived in and the background they came from by researching their remains. If this is done with repect off course, there is no need do spread them out on a table in front of students, nor to keep them in a lab for months.

One of the first excavations I worked on was the excavation of a lost cemetery from the early 1800's just next to Sheffield Cathedral. I feel that the analysis of these skeletons brought interesting new views towards how people lived only 200 years ago.

save that for those that are found from way back your romans ect thats  news and history

a soldier found on   a battlefield to me and many others  was killed by trauma whether it be bomb bullet bayonet shell fire or gas, so  do we really need to know these facts  i dont think so finding remains  in the ground will give you a very good idea of how they died by the state they were found in also the area and what happened there

lost souls found should be  identified either by name or  regiment then laid to rest  in a christian place  and in a marked  grave even if they known only to god , not examined to see if they had incurable diseases  or were  a fat or thin peson  so skeleton records in my eyes and many others mean nothing  find them, identify them, and  deliver them to god

what more must be said on this matter carry on the good work you diggers

bruce

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that carefull analysis of the skeleton can also lead to later identification. f.i. Ten lancaster fusiliers went missing at let's say Lancashire farm. Over the years a first is discovered, a few years later two or three more, etc. By tracking this back to the War Diaries and personal records that might have survived, the skeleton sheets might provide the key to identification.

I respect your views on this Bruce, and I acknowledge your opinion is based on deep respect for the fallen.

It is clear we have different opinions on this, but, well, that's the whole point of a discussion forum I guess.

And yes, keep up the good work Diggers.

[Simon R]

Is it really a perfectly reasonable proposition to talk about the health, diet etc of the British army from documents but utterly unreasonable to gather similar, even better, information from looking at the bones themselves?

Please note that considered criticism of methods, techniques and interpretations does not necessarily include invective, sneering and snide asides at 'amateurism' of those people whose work we justify simply because we've met them. Nor does it involve arguing over the use of the word 'perhaps'.

If you're happy to accept that archaeological excavations will inevitably encounter human remains on the battlefield, I think that it is humane to attempt to understand the conditions of that poor souls humanity by looking at the best record of that persons life - his skeleton. Living relatives should undoubtedly be involved in this, if they exist and can be located.

Are the Diggers doing great work? How do you know? I'm not seeking to knock them for no reason here, I would just like to suggest that in the same way as you can go blue in the face with The Great War and Modern Memory, you should be able to offer constructive criticism and assess the primary evidence from excavations. You can't do it if you can't get hold of the report, and you can't offer anything constructive if whole data sets are absent.

I would certainly like to know all I could about my own great Uncle if he was ever dug up in Thiepval Wood.

I am very pleased that Frans has offered to send me a copy of the report, the fact it has been produced by volunteers makes no difference. If that's condescending, then I must also remember to patronise myself even more fully than I usually do since I am also an Amateur Archaeological Volunteer.

I am specifically looking for any drawn plans of these excavated sites, especially a top-down plan of a (any) soldier in his final 'grave cut' showing the exact relationship of him and objects found in association with him. I've seen a lot of interesting dig-cam pics. for which many thanks, but I need to have something a bit more concrete. It's fine saying 'they record everything' but I've never seen a copy of that record! This is a long-term problem for any 'emerging' archaeological enquiry and I anticipate greater access to this information in the future. So don't stop Digging!

[spike10764]

I think everyone has a point here, If not the diggers, then who else would do it ? Can they really be as thorough as some would like ? Is it better than some developer "disposing" of the remains...yes

Is it first class top notch archaeology...possibly not.

The balance rests for me, with the work done by the diggers and their willingness through frans to be open and share the details with us.

It would be interesting to hear your views on the report frans sends you , Simon. Please let us know your opinions on it when you have had time to read it and decide.

[willy]

Simon in reply to your post, we will have to beg to differ on our views , however I take exception to your comment regarding "how do you know", I too have visited the diggers, and I have also visited "digs" in this country, from neolithic to the english civil war, and the diggers in my opinion are in their field truly expert.

Their care taken in the recording and removal of ANY remains or relics is to be applauded.

The fact that you have not seen any records published may be for a very good reason, but it does not mean they don't exist.

It would be nice that some of you who seek to criticise the diggers offered your services in what is a dangerous environment for free, rarely do these people conduct an archaleogical excavation where on a daily basis they are exposed to failed gas shells and unexploded ordnance of all types.

To all of those who question the work of the diggers, i say do not compare a prehistoric dig to that of a modern day battlefield, they are not the same, and should not be compared, they are totally different.

Much of the information you appear to seek, is already well known, the soldiers diet, working conditions before and during the war, we don't need to know this on a personal basis, yes much of this information has come from documents, many of these documents are from army records, government records and eyewitness accounts, how much better are these sources than guesswork and personal opinon.

Finally, if the various governments concerned had taken the same care to identify remains as the modern day diggers do, there would not be so many"known only unto god" graves, and perhaps they would still be working on the battlefields of flanders and france today.

Is it really a perfectly reasonable proposition to talk about the health, diet etc of the British army from documents but utterly unreasonable to gather similar, even better, information from looking at the bones themselves?

Please note that considered criticism of methods, techniques and interpretations does not necessarily include invective, sneering and snide asides at 'amateurism' of those people whose work we justify simply because we've met them. Nor does it involve arguing over the use of the word 'perhaps'.

If you're happy to accept that archaeological excavations will inevitably encounter human remains on the battlefield, I think that it is humane to attempt to understand the conditions of that poor souls humanity by looking at the best record of that persons life - his skeleton. Living relatives should undoubtedly be involved in this, if they exist and can be located.

Are the Diggers doing great work? How do you know? I'm not seeking to knock them for no reason here, I would just like to suggest that in the same way as you can go blue in the face with The Great War and Modern Memory, you should be able to offer constructive criticism and assess the primary evidence from excavations. You can't do it if you can't get hold of the report, and you can't offer anything constructive if whole data sets are absent.

I would certainly like to know all I could about my own great Uncle if he was ever dug up in Thiepval Wood.

I am very pleased that Frans has offered to send me a copy of the report, the fact it has been produced by volunteers makes no difference. If that's condescending, then I must also remember to patronise myself even more fully than I usually do since I am also an Amateur Archaeological Volunteer.

I am specifically looking for any drawn plans of these excavated sites, especially a top-down plan of a (any) soldier in his final 'grave cut' showing the exact relationship of him and objects found in association with him. I've seen a lot of interesting dig-cam pics. for which many thanks, but I need to have something a bit more concrete. It's fine saying 'they record everything' but I've never seen a copy of that record! This is a long-term problem for any 'emerging' archaeological enquiry and I anticipate greater access to this information in the future. So don't stop Digging!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[frans]

Before we all get our knickers in a twist, the following.

I have talked to Bert this morning and he has informed me that the three monthly reports we send up to the documention center are kept there, so therefore I should immagine freely available for anybody. I suggest anybody who wishes this information take up contact with the documentation center.

I know I take a good snapshot, but the photo's I take of the remains which we don't publish and all the other photo's I take, are going to be available at the documentation center of Ieper.

I have talked to Piet Chielens and Bert Heyvaert this week and we are going to get support from the documentation center regarding reports and availabilty of them. They will be stored in the Documentation center of Ieper.

We are also going to try and fill in some of the gaps from early years. We have the data, photo material and diagrams in our possession but because there was no interest in any findings there was no need for any final document.

It is only because of the rise in interest in the war that we are having to change and adapt to the new and rising demand for information.

The photo's I post on a regular basis are not a report, but are more then enough for most people to get a good idea of what still goes on today. For persons requiring more information the three monthly reports are already available and

a catch up process regarding older material will be made.

I do hope that whatever your interest in the war we can at all times discuss this in a civilised and respectfull manner. It is each individuals interest which counts for me. If we can help in any specific request, if possible we will do this.

Kind regards, Frans

[Max Poilu]

Just to inject a tiny bit of humour - Frans you have an amazing command of English - the Flemish for 'hello', 'please' and 'thank you' defeats me yet you start a post with:

Before we all get our knickers in a twist

[frans]

Just to inject a tiny bit of humour - Frans you have an amazing command of English - the Flemish for 'hello', 'please' and 'thank you' defeats me yet you start a post with:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Giles,

It is very tempting and flattering for me to try and keep the image that I am some continental linguistic whiskid.

But the truth is that from the age of eleven I had the pleasure of growing up in Sheffield. The 'E' by gums and flat caps are no stranger to me.

Thanks for the compliment anyway, Frans

[chrisharley9]

Giles,

It is very tempting and flattering for me to try and keep the image that I am some continental linguistic whiskid.

But the truth is that from the age of eleven I had the pleasure of growing up in Sheffield. The 'E' by gums and flat caps are no stranger to me.

Thanks for the compliment anyway, Frans 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please try to keep a lid on it - Just one E by gum can lead to an Ecky Thump & a tendency to pigeon fancying & we dont want that do we

All The Best

Chris

[Rob B]

Frans,

I know I speak on behalf of many of the forum members but we really appreciate the work you are doing and I am sure if we could many would relish the opertunity to help you in what is a potentially lethal environment (how many mines are still unacounted for!). The rules and regulations I am sure are adherred to as closely as they can be but in many cases it is digging to recover, and investigate before the road or estate goes over the top of the site so some areas of precision reporting and recovery goes out the window.

We are very proud of all you do and what you feed back to us.

Keep doing what you are doing and let the team know we appreciate it.

Cheers,

Rob

[Martin Brown]

Well my questions prompted this so I'd better respond.

Firstly I'm pleased to hear reports are lodged in accessible sources for consultation.

Secondly I'm pleased there is a strong link with In Flanders Fields.

To respond to a couple of wider points others have made:

Of course we should study the bodies archaeologically. The family might actually want to know what killed their ancestor, the Hones family certainly did when we told them. Also future generations may well judge us harshly for not getting maximum info now before the bones deteriorate any further.

I actually believe that proper, responsible, respectful study is a way of honouring the dead of whatever period. We are recognising their humanity and the fact that they still have things to teach us.

Someone mentioned Christian burial, please remember all the other faiths, and none on the Front. And by the way archaeology can actually help spot religious afilitation, another reason for study of associated artefacts.

Question: is the existence of amateur groups like ABAF, the Diggers etc allowing the Belgian Government to get away with not adequately funding archaeological work in this field? The way the AIP have been treated suggests that this might be the case? It's not a case of "if not the diggers then who?". I'm not blaming the amateurs, just wondering...

[Bert Heyvaert]

Well, no archaeology is adequatly funded by the Flemish goverment. Here and there local councils recognize the importance of their archaeological heritage, mostly under pressure of a strong local archaeologist or museum (Velzeke and Ename are good examples of this), and give them more funding.

I would say it is rather the other way round than what you suggest, Martin. These groups exist because archaeology is not adequatly funded in the first place. In Ieper there is no city archaeologist, although this will change in a couple of months. Hopefully he will be able to free more funding for Battlefield archaeology.

There are also plans to implement the Malta-agreements (developer funded archaeology) in Flanders, which would draw considerably more funding towards archaeology. An inventory of WW1 remains allready exists as a d-base of trench-maps and aereal pics projected on ordnance-survey maps. If the local town planning departments have full access to this, they will be able to identify threats and point developers toward their legal duties.

I do see chances of serious improvement, but we still have to wait and see how things turn out.

regards,

Bert

[willy]

Martin, in reply to your recent post my opinoin is that the bodies do not need to be studied to ascertain what killed themas you would wish, this was a war zone after all so the cause of death was likely to be a a fatal trauma, i do not believe that surving relatives would wish to know that possibly their relative was bayoneted or bled to death .

What most would like to know is that their long lost relative has been found and buried with honour, not become some laboratory exhibit.

Regarding your comments about honouring the dead, this is done everyday at the Menen gate, and in hundreds of military cemetaries around the world, by those who care, and yes the dead do still teach us, they teach us humility, in their sacrifice, and that they gave their lives so that future generations could enjoy theirs.

Finally I have spoken with Bruce, and he did mean burials of all faiths, not just christian, and did not mean any offence, and coming from someone who cares as much as he does, i for believe him.

[Bert Heyvaert]

Martin, in reply to your recent post my opinoin is that the bodies do not need to be studied to ascertain what killed themas you would wish,  this was a war zone after all so the cause of death was  likely to be a a fatal trauma, i do not believe that surving relatives would wish to know that possibly their relative was bayoneted or bled to death .

What most would like to know is that their long lost relative has been found and buried with honour, not become some laboratory exhibit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Willy, let me start by saying that I respect your views as they are given in by a sincere respect for the fallen.

Honestly, if I my great-grandafther or great-granduncle would have gone missing and would be found today I would like to know how he came to his ending. Not that I will ever be in this situation, because the only relative in my family who died was dug up on the battlefield by his two brothers and brought home.

Anyway, if I am not mistaken, it is standard procedure that all bodies identified as British are well researched and documented by one of Britains most respected ostheologists, with the eye on helping the C.W.G.C. in the identification process. Whether the full report should be forwarded to the family in case of a positive I.D... If they ask for it, yes, off course.

Again, I do respect your opinion and you are right that all that is done has to be in function of giving this soldier an honoured burial. In no case should he ever become a laboratory exhibit.

Bert

[willy]

Bert , I thankyou for your reply to my post, I am aware of the processes carried out by the British authorities in particular , to aid id, this is most important, what i object to most strongly are the views that the fallen should be examined for other research.

I will never be convinced that this is necessary.

My Grandfather lies in a cemetary on the somme, he was killed in action and that is all i need to know, and that his final resting place is known, unlike the thousands who are not.

I don't need or want to know what physical shape he was in ,or exactly how he died, and the thought of his remains being examined by academics and students, for purposes other than id, abhorrs me.

[Simon R]

Nice to see we still retain our faith in documents.

And I would too, if I could actually get hold of the excavation reports to read in the first place. Frans very kindly reassures me I can, for which many thanks. I literally had no idea about the 3 monthly reports.

It was 'How do you know' as in 'How are we assessing their work as valuable contributors to the archaeological understanding of WWI?' I've never seen an excavation report, I think very few of us who rush to cover the Diggers with accolades have either. It's just not material that circulates in the British archaeological community, maybe for understandable reasons but just because we can understand those reasons, doesn't mean it's the best of all possible worlds.

It's not questioning someones work, it's trying to push things forward in the understanding of the material world! It's basic, normal, everyday, critical appreciation. The same tools we use when studying documents!

As I tried to suggest, the problem of poor access to archaeological archives is an endemic, long term, Europe-wide problem. Now, if I am only just becoming able to get hold of those archives (let alone trying to prise the local archaeological reports from field units for the museum), imagine how much harder it is for someone just starting out.

It's an emerging discipline, it will be difficult to obtain the right kind of information for some time to come.

I'm told I should go and dig up live shells if I really want to help. The archaeological equivalent of 'go and play in a minefield', thanks a lot. I fail utterly to see the benefit of carefully excavating grenades but failing to research human remains.

Balance, perspective.... sorry, run out for now. Discussion is fine, but I have to leave the room for some air now. You lot can talk amongst yourselves.

[willy]

Well Simon as someone "who rushes to cover the diggers in accolades" as you put it , I have seen their work and their results first hand.

I do feel that some have been questioning the work of the diggers, perhaps had they a grander more academic title that may not be so?

Just because you have not seen any records, does not mean they don't exist.

As for your final paragraph, as you group those who hold a differing view from yours, together as "you lot" i will treat you with the same contempt, but i won't run out of air!.

[frans]

Well, no archaeology is adequatly funded by the Flemish goverment. Here and there local councils recognize the importance of their archaeological heritage, mostly under pressure of a strong local archaeologist or museum (Velzeke and Ename are good examples of this), and give them more funding.

I would say it is rather the other way round than what you suggest, Martin. These groups exist because archaeology is not adequatly funded in the first place. In Ieper there is no city archaeologist, although this will change in a couple of months. Hopefully he will be able to free more funding for Battlefield archaeology.

There are also plans to implement the Malta-agreements (developer funded archaeology) in Flanders, which would draw considerably more funding towards archaeology. An inventory of WW1 remains allready exists as a d-base of trench-maps and aereal pics projected on ordnance-survey maps. If the local town planning departments have full access to this, they will be able to identify threats and point developers toward their legal duties.

I do see chances of serious improvement, but we still have to wait and see how things turn out.

regards,

Bert

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just coming back on some of the remarks,

We exist because we don't need funding and do a good and safe job and the funds we do need mainly come from abroad. I for one understand the reluctance of the government to fund the first world war because the amount needed would be staggering. I do understand that money does not grow on trees.

But most important reason why I think we should be slightly carefull is the fact that the archeologists don't really have the know how, to do this kind of digging.

This was confirmed by one of the main archeologist who said this on Flemish TV regarding the A19 project.

For me the choice would not be difficult, spend a day with an archeologist who must just hope for luck and a prayer book or go with Patrick van Wanzeele (De Diggers) and come home at six in one peace and having spent a great afternoon finding and learning about WW1.

The amateur Patrick is extensively used all over Flanders by the archeologist to help them in their excavations. Several weeks ago the dirty word metal detecting

is going to be allowed again in archeological circles. Sinds the banning in 1992 hardly any finds have been done. One of the most prolific finders of the middle ages is the amateur Patrick.

I have checked today and it is not part of the cylibus for archeologist in how to deal with ammunition.

De Diggers are at the moment in a front line trench of 1915. Fact is that 95 procent of the finds is devices that should have gone boooomm. The other is badly preserved peaces of equipment and sometimes remains.

I have read what you would like to do with remains, but if you have recovered as many remains as the group has over the years, then the grim and hard reality is that these boys met a very violent death and are usually blown into many bits.

Unless you have seen this with your own eyes, then this is hard to immagine.

The only research worth doing is on the surrounding items found with the soldier.

But as you know very well this is done by the respective governments

For me personnally I find the finds of remains still to this day a hearbreaking experience. Patrick is strickt and sees to it that each remains which is found is handled with the utmost care, irrispective of what nationality.

I do have a problem the easy way which is talked about a group started in 1982 of which at the moment the four most senior members have together more then 100 years experience in handling ammunition and how to explore the battlefields, by young proff's who at the start of the group were still running around in pampers.

After two day's of this lovely debate I have had my say and would prefer to carry on showing what we are best at.

Kind regards, Frans

[Bert Heyvaert]

I agree Frans,

This got slightly out of hand. This is a place for discussion in the first place, we all had our say, maybe we don't always agree but that's one of the implementations of discussion anyway. As someone told me yesterday, remembrance is and stays the most important thing that bounds everyone here together.

As you said Frans, archaeology students do not learn how to cope with ammunition. Very strange indeed, as there is a very real chance that they will end up working on sites where these things may be found, not necessarily looking for WW1 remains, but they might come across them anyway. They should at least, for their own safety and the safety of others, be introduced to what they might find.

Further from the rest, do keep posting those pics we all look forward to with great interest, Frans.

[frans]

Back to business

These three items were found in the bottom of a blast pit last saturday. The iodine ampul is still in mint condition.

[Guest Simon Bull]

As I tried to suggest, the problem of poor access to archaeological archives is an endemic, long term, Europe-wide problem. Now, if I am only just becoming able to get hold of those archives (let alone trying to prise the local archaeological reports from field units for the museum), imagine how much harder it is for someone just starting out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

I know that there was quite a substantial dig near Villers Bretonneux before the new Autoroute south of VB was built - I saw the work going on. However, despite several efforts, I have been totally unable to get hold of the report, which I find immensely frustrating, having a personal interest as the digging was going on in the immediate area where my grandfather was taken prisoner and his officer killed.

I find this dissatisfying not only from a personal point of view but because these digs usually absorb public money, but the results are not made available to the public.

[Guest Simon Bull]

I am very sad to see the Diggers being criticised. Even if their work is in any way imperfect (and I am not for one moment suggesting that it is) the reality of the situation is that if they did not do it it would probably not get done at all and the sites that they work on would be redeveloped with no archaeological investigation. Surely such work is better done by well-meaning, competent, amateurs than not at all?

[willy]

Simon, in reply to your four identical post's, I will leave this thread here too, apologise no, I take your comments as i interpreted them, and that is my opinon.

[tonycad]

I am taking this opportunity of thanking Frans and the Diggers for allowing my wife and I to visit them at their site at Boezinge, last Saturday, 8th October, for over an hour.

Frans, thank you for being an accomodating and informative host, and for the rest of the Diggers for being so friendly, and for showing us what they were working on at the time.

I was amazed to see the amount of materiel emerging from the 1915 German line, in what was an area not much bigger than a tennis court. Whilst no doubt the trench must have been in chaos when it was left during the war, and further interfered with when the site was reclaimed after the war, and in more recent times levelled as a site for a factory complex, the extent of the goods of war shows what terrible fighting went on here. How did men survive.

In order to show that 'I was there' I am going to bore the Pals by repeating some of the photographs ahown by Frans.

T ny

1. The Vrey pistol emerging from the mud, and showing water entering the excavated hole, which must have the bottom of the trench

[tonycad]

Something wet wrong in the downloading of the photograp. tryig again!

T ny

1 Verey pistol emerging from the ground. Water entering the excavation at was once the trench floor.