Today's harvest with the diggers in Boezinghe

[shaymen]

All contributors and especially Frans

Just want to say -

Totally absorbing thread - keep up the great work.

Glyn

[spike10764]

frans

As always many thanks for the great pics the diggers are without a doubt doing a brilliant job thank them all

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bruce,

At 55,000 views, this topic must be the most watched item on forum. Thanks once again to Frans and the Diggers.

[susanhemmings]

Superb stuff.

Great digital images..

Thank you Frans.

Susan.

[Guest PROCONSUL]

Fantastic work. Down here in Sydney we really appreciate the pictures. keep up the good work

Tim

[Soren]

Yes a brilliant thread thank you Frans!

[Martin Brown]

Hi Frans

Thanks for your response to my requestion about recording. Can I suggest that it is very much your job to assist in the identification, which is why I asked about recording and trying to associate material with human remains. While it is the job of the relevant national authorities to finally decide if body 2 is soldier X what you do in terms of recording can be of enormous help in this process. For instance, in a case in France 2 years ago my group were able to identify 2 individuals by careful consideration of the uniform fragments, equipment and the personal effects and then using the data to go to casualty lists and compare and contrast. We threw our expertise at the problem in a way the VDK had neither time nor money to do and have consequently identified two of the missing.

In addition, archaeologically speaking, it is essential to realy think about what kit is with which body as that's part of the process of telling a more personal, human story than that of the battle, something I know In Flanders Fields is very keen on.

All the best

Martin

[Simon R]

Could someone tell me where all these excavations are published?

We get a lot of pictures, but when you ask (in other threads e.g. Lancs. Fusilier Found etc) if and where a report will be published you get asked to shut up.

Who gets a copy of what?.

I am struggling to find published archaeological reports regarding the excavation of Western Front sites, can someone give me some bibliographic refs. likely to be found in the UK at least.

If I am going over old ground, apologies, but I am STUCK. Interested and able to contribute to published debate, but devoid of resources.

[frans]

Hi Frans

Thanks for your response to my requestion about recording.  Can I suggest that it is very much your job to assist in the identification, which is why I asked about recording and trying to associate material with human remains.    While it is the job of the relevant national authorities to finally decide if body 2 is soldier X what you do in terms of recording can be of enormous help in this process.  For instance, in a case in France 2 years ago my group were able to identify 2 individuals by careful consideration of the uniform fragments, equipment and the personal effects and then using the data to go to casualty lists and compare and contrast.  We threw our expertise at the problem in a way the VDK had neither time nor money to do and have consequently identified two of the missing.

In addition, archaeologically speaking, it is essential to realy think about what kit is with which body as that's part of the process of telling a more personal, human story than that of the battle, something I know In Flanders Fields is very keen on.

All the best

Martin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree Martin, and it is the part we take most serious the documentation and trying to find as much information around the remains which in any way could help to identify the soldiers.

When dealing with remains I think I can speak for the whole group, it becomes a very personnel search and we always hope to find anything that could give a positive ID, but the reality is that the majority will only be known to God.

Sinds 1998 on the Boezinge site there have been 203 soldiers unearthed and number 204 looks like he will be removed next weekend. Besides being against the law to hold unto anything regarding remains and private items we don't have the financial means to do any research regarding these matters.

So as the rules very clearly state it is left up to the authorities.

For me personnally, finding remains is sometimes to close for comfort.

What we unearth is not some ancient remains, but until a few years ago somebody will have known this person. There can still be surviving relatives.

Another good example is that the Police officer who has to be present has to satisfy himself that it is not a crime scene, as far as I know this is not required for anything out of the middle ages.

Kind regards, Frans

[frans]

Could someone tell me where all these excavations are published?

We get a lot of pictures, but when you ask (in other threads e.g. Lancs. Fusilier Found etc) if and where a report will be published you get asked to shut up.

Who gets a copy of what?.

I am struggling to find published archaeological reports regarding the excavation of Western Front sites, can someone give me some bibliographic refs. likely to be found in the UK at least.

If I am going over old ground, apologies, but I am STUCK. Interested and able to contribute to published debate, but devoid of resources.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simon,

I don't know about any other excavations, but when we have finished on this peace of land we have to make a report for the Townhall of Ieper which gives us the licence and The In Flanders Field Museum with whom we work very closely. When this report is done I will be only to pleased to send you a copy.

If there is any information you wish on the area we are working at the moment, I will be only to pleased to help you.

Regards Frans

[willy]

Martin, having met with Frans, Patrick and Andre, recently, I can assure you they all take the greatest care in what they are doing, they also try their best with very limited funds to establish id when a lost soul is found.

Their work should have been completed after the war by the authorities, but they too had similar funding problems, and left the area untouched.

Lets be thankful that this very dedicated group is doing something positive, and not just skimming a site with metal detectors to see what they can find to sell, with no concern for the more important issues.

Willy

[Raymondo]

Hi, Willy. Having spent several days recently with Frans (as principal driver for Tafski) I have to add my support to your comments about de Diggers. Understandably their finds of weapons, uniform and munitions are astounding but the total respect and care with which they deal with human remains is something to be admired. In many conversations with Frans the constant message I got was the importance of doing everything possible to identify remains, but even when this task was impossible the nature of how they go about their business is totally respectful and proper

[Simon Jones]

The cross of the insignia dated 1913. And the remains of the pin with still the cover over it. The rest of the helmit has disappeared.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The helmet plate is from a Prussian Landwehr Regiment, the cross indicating Landwehr. The date on the cross is 1813.

Regards

Simon

[frans]

The helmet plate is from a Prussian Landwehr Regiment, the cross indicating Landwehr. The date on the cross is 1813.

Regards

Simon

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are spot on Simon, Thank you

Frans

[Drummy]

I wonder have the members of the diggers ever been acknowledged / commended by the British Government for the work they do?? Without this group these 204 men (be they Brits, Germans, French etc) would never have received a decent burial, irrespective of whether identified, and probably just bullozed or built over. Well done, thanks for the pictures and thanks for the work you all do.

[poor_bloody_infantry]

I agree

its about time de diggers were given some higher recognition for their first class efforts in retreiving lost souls  with out their dedication and hard work many would  be simply built over  and lost forever

I for one will back any campaign to see that they do get some higher form of recognition for their stirling work also to add to the earlier post i like willy and ray have met with some of the diggers and have  seen what they really do, they treat all finds humane or ordance with the upmost respect and ensure all information is collated a job they do proffesionally on a final note remember these guys are classed as amateurs but do a proffesional job

Hope Higher recognition comes sooner  than later

Bruce 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great Post! I too am glad that we have enthusiasts like the Diggers, who have managed, through their skill and dedication, to put a human face onto what some may have previously considered to be nothing more than a collection of boring facts and figures existing in dusty old history textbooks. Bravo 'de Diggers'!

[Bert Heyvaert]

Could someone tell me where all these excavations are published?

We get a lot of pictures, but when you ask (in other threads e.g. Lancs. Fusilier Found etc) if and where a report will be published you get asked to shut up.

Who gets a copy of what?.

I am struggling to find published archaeological reports regarding the excavation of Western Front sites, can someone give me some bibliographic refs. likely to be found in the UK at least.

If I am going over old ground, apologies, but I am STUCK. Interested and able to contribute to published debate, but devoid of resources.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simon,

The fact that you are not able to find many published WW1 excavation-reports, is that there hardly are any. The only ones for Ypres Salient that I can think off are the A.W.A. (association for world war archaeology) report on the A 19 project which is quite good. I believe it is available from their website. The full report, two large volumes, is in the documentation center In Flanders Fields, but they are only in dutch.

For th ediggers, there was a publication a while a go when they had their exhibition in Boezinge if I'm not mistaken.

There are also two books from the A.B.A.F.: 'Beecham Dugout' and 'Bayernwald'. They offer some information on the excavations that were conducted at these places. They are well researched books, but offer more historical than archaeological background.

For any more information on this matter, and on availability of excavation reports, contact Matthieu de Meyer, webmaster of the A.W.A. through his website, I am sure he will be able to tell you much more than me.

regards,

Bert

[Max Poilu]

Simon R (and others), this site should be of interest - there's an awful lot of reading here:

(link revised)

The Archaeology of the Western Front

[Simon R]

Thanks for that, most interesting.

'Higher recognition' is perhaps deserved, but I would like to see greater effort made in publishing archaeological reports on the excavations. The Diggers website is interesting, I especially like the material on Yorkshire Trench, but I would prefer to see greater contextual information.

It seems, from this distance, that skeletal reports are entirely absent - is anyone doing the kind of research that we would commonly undertake on skeletons from prehistoric/Roman/Anglo-Saxon/Norman/Medieval etc periods? As the remains are reburied, have we missed the only opportunity to examine evidence we ordinarily attempt to extract from more familiar archaeological contexts?

Living relatives would perhaps not like their relatives height, details of peridontal disease etc to be published but I feel that if you're prepared to dig a WWI body up, you have to be prepared to obtain something positive from it in the form of extracting as much information as you can. The data could at least be obtained and published at a future date as time goes by and future generations with different attitudes become interested. This may already be done, I don't know!

[mcderms]

Thanks for that, most interesting.

'Higher recognition' is perhaps deserved, but I would like to see greater effort made in publishing archaeological reports on the excavations. The Diggers website is interesting, I especially like the material on Yorkshire Trench, but I would prefer to see greater contextual information.

It seems, from this distance, that skeletal reports are entirely absent - is anyone doing the kind of research that we would commonly undertake on skeletons from prehistoric/Roman/Anglo-Saxon/Norman/Medieval etc periods? As the remains are reburied, have we missed the only opportunity to examine evidence we ordinarily attempt to extract from more familiar archaeological contexts?

Living relatives would perhaps not like their relatives height, details of peridontal disease etc to be published but I feel that if you're prepared to dig a WWI body up, you have to be prepared to obtain something positive from it in the form of extracting as much information as you can. The data could at least be obtained and published at a future date as time goes by and future generations with different attitudes become interested. This may already be done, I don't know!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... all comes down to ££££ and who pays. At the end of the day, remains can be exhumed and re-examined in the future (as happened at Custer National Cemetery in the US) if there's a good reason and someone to foot the bill.

If you can find a relative are they likely to want to pay big bucks to find out if grandad had bad teeth? (cynic mode to OFF)...

[willy]

Simon having visited the diggers personally may I take this opportunity to express my findings and feelings.

The Diggers do absoloutley astounding work that others cannot , willnot or plain just don't want to do, and yes they do deserve higher recognition for their work, although they do not seek it.

Let me explain how the system in Belgium works, the diggers when finding human remains have to immediateley notify the police, who then attend and satisfy themselves that the remains are not from a crime, the remains are then collected by the belgian authorities who carryout whatever id checks they can,together with the diggers evidence, whether id is possible or not that soldier is laid to rest with dignity, all thanks to the diggers.

I for one accept that the likely cause of death would be extreme trauma as afterall this was a war zone.

I consider what the diggers are doing on a personal front as retrieval of soldiers bodies, and as someone who has a relative laid on the somme, i for one would not want my grandfathers remains sat in a lab for an indefinite period whilst being tested for this and that.

That they were killed whilst serving their country in as we know the most appalling conditions, is enough for me, we have the benefit of eye witness accounts, film and other archive material to tell us the story, without having to dissect any remains found.

Thankyou again to the diggers who without their efforts more than 200 lost souls would be under concrete.

willy

[willy]

Well said Bruce, the diggers are doing great work.

Long may they continue.

willy

[Bert Heyvaert]

As for skeletal reports what use are these ???would say all soldiers found  died of trauma in some shape or form I certainley would not like to receive  such a report of my great uncle if he was ever found or even see a pic of him as he was found

Also do we need to know what diseases  or ailments he suffered from, isnt it good enough that they have been found and if possible named or badged to a regiment so that they can rest in peace in a christian place rather than left to be built over under a motorway ,industrial estate or housing development ,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think they definitly have a use! Do we really know what all these soldiers died of? Trauma, yes, but what kind of Trauma? An osteologist can derive some astonishing things from a skeleton, re to how this person lived, you would be suprised!

I think an archaeologist can definitly study the human remains with great care and respect. After that, the poor soul can be laid to rest. I don't see how this could be disrespectfull.

[Drummy]

I can only go off what I read and have seen in museums in Belgium but the work done by groups such as The Diggers can only be praised. To my knowledge they are volunteers, unpaid, and work in difficult and dangerous conditions to save what they can from the ever encroaching reach of development. I have noted on occasion throughout this forum some with more professional knowledge querying this and that procedure and sometimes, in my opinion anyhow, doing it in a condescending way. I would only say good on the Diggers for what they continue do as without them I doubt much would have been saved. If someone with the relevant expertise wants to knock or constantly query their methods how about going over and offering some time/knowledge to them for free??

[willy]

well said Drummy, well said.

willy

[6th Shropshires]

I have followed the Diggers work now for some years and know they take every measure they can to find any items that would help ID any poor soul they find. As for skeletal reports I would say goverments bodies such as MOD would have to carry out such things or at least pay for it.

Annette

Keep up the good work De Diggers