Simon R Posted 14 October , 2005 Share Posted 14 October , 2005 Just tried to remove 3 of the mistakenly added identical posts and accidentally binned all of the darn things. So it's trench warfare then? After an abortive moonlight raid in no-mans land, we're both firmly entrenched with no hope of advance? Until one of us invents the tank. I could deploy gas but that really would be most unpleasant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 14 October , 2005 Share Posted 14 October , 2005 Sorry for wasting space, and for stretching your patience. Trying again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 14 October , 2005 Share Posted 14 October , 2005 2. Verey pistol out of its excavation Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 14 October , 2005 Share Posted 14 October , 2005 2. Verey pistol out of its excavation Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 14 October , 2005 Share Posted 14 October , 2005 Sorry,sorry,sorry. I am giving up this thread, and I am going back to basics on learning how to attach photographs. T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 14 October , 2005 Share Posted 14 October , 2005 The statements that you make about the Diggers, I endorse whole heartedly! However, I feel I must respond accordingly, to your statements, about " Known only to God" and regarding Christian Burials etc! I, for one am athiest! It is my own decision, no more, no less! My Great Uncle's grave, does not have the Christian cross on the headstone, as do not have many of the tommies headstones, that we see throughout the battlefields. Many tommies were athiest! I feel it would be awful, to give a Christian burial and headstone to an athiest! Just imagine giving a Christian, a non Christian commital and headstone! These immortal statements, became, when generally, we were all considered Christian, by the authorities, of the time! A Christian burial for all? I hope not! Sometimes, I feel that the dead should stay where they fell! Amongst their comrades and enemies. True comrades in death. A band of brothers, for all eternity! Glad your trip was a good one mate! Chris. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is not often that I agree with a post 100%, but I do on this occasion. well said Chris. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 From what I understand a great deal of soldiers became obsessed about not being identified in death, surely the thought of the appropriate religious burial played a huge part in their concerns? I'm pretty sure that by far the majority would have wanted some sort of religious burial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Maybe so! But please, we are not all Christian and nor were the British and Commomwealth armies! Each to his, or her own and never should they be denied their faith! That also includes the pagan's and athiests beliefs! I just personaly, get a bit fed up, of the idea that we/tommie were all Christians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Tony, please persevere with the photos (if you want to email them to me I will try!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 I understand what you are saying, but the majority in the British army must have been christian or at least given it as their religion when they joined up? Don't forget that the Church meant more to people way back then. Anyway lets get back to Frans interesting thread which has been losing it's way for a number of posts now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 re: religious identity - would there be any statistics/figure on this from period? e.g. % Methodist, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Zoarastrian etc? To what extent do excavated WWI artefacts/burials infer religion? Are graves dug during battle/battlefield clearances E-W orientated? Is there any evidence of Muslim burials, for example, having a different orientation? Has anyone looked at this before? Are CWGC graves on Western Front all E-W? I suppose particular cemys. will vary, maybe even for 'aesthetic' reasons and particulars of land, I just wonder what the degree of variation is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 re: religious identity - would there be any statistics/figure on this from period? e.g. % Methodist, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Zoarastrian etc? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Simon - a snapshot only, but I've recently been looking at Canadian attestation papers for about 35 men who emigrated from Stockport. The vast majority record their denomination as Church of England. A handful of Methodists/Presbyyterians/Baptists and one Roman Catholic. Not a single non-recorder. Now, that's not to say that everyone was necessarily a believer or an active communicant. And I suspect that, even today, you'll find a lot of people who will respond to that sort of question with "Errmm. I'm not sure. You better put me down as C of E". But what is without question, I think, is that there was a much greater active worship in those days than today. The churches were also centres for social and educational activities as well as religious. Personally, I have no beliefs in the supernatural and am always clear about that on forms. I would hate to think that I was buried under a stone marked "Known unto God", but then I'd be dead and wouldnt know about it, so it wouldnt matter to me. I suspect if we were reinventing history today, we would probably have the inscription as something like "An unknown soldier. At peace". John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Interesting - one of D/245s signallers sometimes went to catholic mass 'for a change'. re: social and educational - Toc H as battlefield continuation of that long term C19th based trend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Verey pistol out of its excavation, T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 3. Picklelhaube being excavated T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 4. Pickelhaube moved out of its excavation hole. The leather has rotted away leaving the metal parts. T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 5. Small brass cross once pinned to the Eagle on the pickelhaube. T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 6. Small collection of shells, including a Toffee Apple and a Stokes mortar. T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonycad Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 7. Diggers working on their individual projects, including the pickelhaube and the Verey pistol, in a very small area within the not much larger site. T ny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 7. Diggers working on their individual projects, including the pickelhaube and the Verey pistol, in a very small area within the not much larger site. T ny <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nice to be back to the pictures, Tony, thanks for posting them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Hope you are not poking fun simon, if so it is in rather bad taste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Great work by the way keep it up no matter what critics there may be <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Critique is essential if you want to progress in an understanding of the material remains of past societys, past worlds, forgotten battlefields. It's equally essential if you want to try and improve the long term management and publication of archaeologial archives. And I agree: some fantastic finds, great photographs and I'm pleased that there is such a strong amateur element to WWI archaeology. These elements are beyond compare. I happen to think that some information, especially that which we might take from human remains, may be lost under the conditions and archaeological milieu they work in. At any other archaeological site, the inability to accurately record articulated (a caveat I insert due to the chaotic nature of some WWI sediments) skeletal material would be a major downfall in their research agenda. Debate and argument over the techniques, morals and philosophical imperatives of WWI archaeological work are healthy topics for discussion. There are certainly moral questions involved in the treatment of human skeletal material from the relatively recent past, but it is possible to argue that the greater good is served if we seek to determine as much information as possible from mortal remains. If I have seemed intemperate it must be appreciated that the utter dearth of published archaeological reports from the Western Front can lead to an inability to be able to properly appreciate, at any level, the quality of the archaeological work undertaken. Personal offers of reports are most welcome, but the endemic publication problem I have previously identified has to be borne in mind. Frustration and poor communication are understandable, but allegations of contempt for others views (in light of previous comments) remain inaccurate, insulting and unhelpful. Sorry to interrupt the slide show, but these are some of the salient points that I think these fascinating photos raise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Hope you are not poking fun simon, if so it is in rather bad taste <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't you recognise an olive branch when you see one? Using WWI imagery to describe an argument isn't that offensive is it? Oh, I've really had enough of this. I've tried to explain my position endlessly but I'm just talking past everyone. I give up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 The three diggers on the photo had the task this afternoon to recover the remains of a soldier. The police was present and it took all afternoon to finish the job. The remains are of an english soldier who was killed by a large explosion. The remains were not complete and no real help with any private items to give a positive ID. Patrick has given me permission to post the regiment a clear ID was made of this. Soldier nr. 205 regiment was The Somerset Light Infantry. I know a lot of people and De Diggers have a good feeling when we know that this soldier will have a proper resting place in the near future. Frans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Heyvaert Posted 15 October , 2005 Share Posted 15 October , 2005 Was this Somerseth soldier found today, Frans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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