Full Dress Distinctions for Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the Highland Infantry Regiments c1910-1914

[gordon92]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I didn’t know you wanted to see examples, as I have posted them several times before.  As I understand it Gordon92 is looking for something specific and defined, and that is a comparison of the sergeants major of battalion of those regiments that wore white drill order:

1.  Royal Highlanders (Black Watch).

2.  Seaforth Highlanders.

3.  Gordon Highlanders.

4.  Queen’s Own (Cameron Highlanders).

5.  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

You are correct. Looking for vintage photos of staff sergeants and warrant officers of the six Highland regiments in white drill jackets.  Thanks for your photos, nonetheless. The last one of the Colour sergeant jacket is interesting... I believe CRs say that the Colour badge is not worn with the white jacket. Just another example of how dress regulations were conveniently ignored.

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, gordon92 said:

You are correct. Looking for vintage photos of staff sergeants and warrant officers of the six Highland regiments in white drill jackets.  Thanks for your photos, nonetheless. The last one of the Colour sergeant jacket is interesting... I believe CRs say that the Colour badge is not worn with the white jacket. Just another example of how dress regulations were conveniently ignored.

Here is a good quality image of a sergeant major of battalion from the Seaforth Highlanders.

Note how it has a higher collar, but a two button cuff with no apparent mitre, nor are there inset pockets so far as I can see.  Full dress doublets were made bespoke for men wearing first class clothing according to clothing regulations, and it seems to me possible/likely that Highland regiments white drill jackets were too due to the important part that they played in regimental dress seen regularly in the public domain during summer public duties.  This was something unique to the Scottish line when compared with English, Welsh and Irish regiments.

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And here a RH Black Watch Colour Sergeant with authorised [undress] rank badge together with an Enlisted Boy.

It seems very likely to me that the erroneous example that you commented upon is from the Canadian Permanent Militia.  I’m almost certain that is where I got the image from.  They sometimes ignored, or misunderstood traditional dress protocol. 

Edited 27 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And this shows a RH Black Watch Band Boy. 

[FROGSMILE]

Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.  Note the inset pockets on this sergeants jacket, which would not have been bespoke, but a stock size adjusted to fit.  His chevrons are gold lace on white backing**, matching the same style as with full dress doublets where the gold was on red.

** a Smitherman painting of an A&SH Sgt in drill order circa 1914 shows the red backed stripes erroneously.

Edited 27 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Gordon Highlanders.

[FROGSMILE]

White Melton officers pattern jacket.  Note lined collar and deeply quilted torso lining to provide extra body.

Edited 27 April by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Here is a good quality image of a sergeant major of battalion from the Seaforth Highlanders.

Note how it has a two button cuff with no apparent mitre, nor are there inset pockets so far as I can see.  Full dress doublets were made bespoke for men wearing first class clothing according to clothing regulations, and it seems to me possible/likely that white drill jackets were too due to the important part that they played in regimental dress seen regularly in the public domain during summer public duties.

Many thanks for the additional photos. This one is of SM David Nelson of the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders of Canada.  See https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/regimental-sergeant-major-david-nelson-of-72nd-regiment-of-seaforth-highlanders-of-canada-standing-in-uniform-in-front-of-beatty-street-drill-hall;rad?sf_culture=en. I notice that his hose tops are unevenly exposed above each leg, 3 1/2 die on the right and 4 on left.  It is doubtful that you would ever see that on a regular Sergeant Major of an Imperial Highland regiment. IIRC, the Imperial Seaforth standard was 3 die above the upper edge of the spats.

[FROGSMILE]

18 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Many thanks for the additional photos. This one is of SM David Nelson of the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders of Canada.  See https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/regimental-sergeant-major-david-nelson-of-72nd-regiment-of-seaforth-highlanders-of-canada-standing-in-uniform-in-front-of-beatty-street-drill-hall;rad?sf_culture=en. I notice that his hose tops are unevenly exposed above each leg, 3 1/2 die on the right and 4 on left.  It is doubtful that you would ever see that on a regular Sergeant Major of an Imperial Highland regiment. IIRC, the Imperial Seaforth standard was 3 die above the upper edge of the spats.

Yes I think that you’re right.  It was a very different situation in an Imperial line regiment, with life lived to a quite rigid routine set by pipes and bugle, combined with very stringent standards of dress.  It was a nightly scene to observe soldiers attending the defaulters parade directly alongside the staff parade at 22.00hrs.  Many of the men on defaulters were there for failing the necessary attention to detail concerning things like hose, garter tabs, residue of dried brass cleaner, dust, scuffs on brogues, faults with buttoned spats, the list was endless.  Most soldiers eventually picked up the meticulous skills required, but there was always the odd fellow who got a reputation for never getting it right.  Eventually his pals would usually take him in hand and ensure that his kit was correct.  It was the kind of thing that developed a coherence and teamwork amongst each section in each platoon.

NB.  I wonder if it’s the Canadian connection that led to a jacket without pockets in the photo you linked.  I am unsure whether the pockets feature is something that related to a pattern change or whether it was to do with rank.  The A&SH sergeant in the photo has pockets, but the BW CSgt does not.  Perhaps the latter is on the battalion staff and so wearing a first class garment that perhaps didn’t have pockets as I thought and was more like the officers pattern given your Canadian sergeant major of the 72nd.  It is an aspect that is unclear.

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

 Highland regiments white drill jackets were stock items in the successive price lists:

'Jackets white' 1896

1080 staff                                  cloth, white, Number 1 @ £1..2..3

1081 sergeants, band, pipers    cloth white, Number 2 @ 11/5-

1082 buglers, drummers, r&F    kersey@ 6/4-

thus not bespoke, supplied with shoulder cords but no chevrons or badges.

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

 Highland regiments white drill jackets were stock items in the successive price lists:

'Jackets white' 1896

1080 staff                                  cloth, white, Number 1 @ £1..2..3

1081 sergeants, band, pipers    cloth white, Number 2 @ 11/5-

1082 buglers, drummers, r&F    kersey@ 6/4-

thus not bespoke, supplied with shoulder cords but no chevrons or badges.

Thank you for those details.  That’s very helpful.  The other aspect that seems unclear is which of those three category jackets had the onset pockets, the sergeants or the staff.  At first I thought the latter, but after examining the photos and considering the differing roles I think that the sergeants are probably more likely to have need of somewhere to place a notebook.

Edited 29 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

It is a little odd that bandsmen were given a better version that a drummer.

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Muerrisch said:

It is a little odd that bandsmen were given a better version that a drummer.

I noticed that when looked at across the piece (of all bands), in a majority of cases the band were given sergeant quality tunics so I suppose something similar with white drill jackets was inevitable.

What is more puzzling for me is the warrant officer SM of the Canadian 72nd Highlanders.  His jacket has a very tall Officer like collar and no inset pockets and that made me ponder as to whether it might be bespoke.  That said it’s unclear whether the Canadians permanent militia of that time were following the Imperial line to the letter, or not.

[gordon92]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I noticed that when looked at across the piece (of all bands), in a majority of cases the band were given sergeant quality tunics so I suppose something similar with white drill jackets was inevitable.

What is more puzzling for me is the warrant officer SM of the Canadian 72nd Highlanders.  His jacket has a very tall Officer like collar and no inset pockets and that made me ponder as to whether it might be bespoke.  That said it’s unclear whether the Canadians permanent militia of that time were following the Imperial line to the letter, or not.

Regarding the SM of the 72nd Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, I am surprised to see a sash over his right shoulder.  In full dress, the Imperial Seaforth Highlanders dressed their SM almost as an officer (exception was the sporran). Although I have yet to see hard photographic evidence, my working assumption is that the Imperial Seaforth SMs would be wearing a shoulder  sword belt and sash over the left shoulder when dressed in white drill jacket.* Thus, my supposition is that the Canadian militia were not following the Imperial line to the letter.

@Muerrisch....... Does Toby Brayley have any photos of Seaforth warrant officers or staff sergeants in white drill jackets? 

*It is entirely possible that, when walking out, a Seaforth SM (or any of the BW, HLI, Gordon, A&SH SMs) could have reverted to sergeant style dress with a right shouldered sash. We know that was the case with the Cameron SM. That is why I am seeking further white drill jacket images.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

*It is entirely possible that, when walking out, a Seaforth SM (or any of the BW, HLI, Gordon, A&SH SMs) could have reverted to sergeant style dress with a right shouldered sash. We know that was the case with the Cameron SM. That is why I am seeking further white drill jacket images.

I think that’s entirely likely.  It’s important to keep strongly in mind that the white drill jacket was primarily undress.  Wearing a sword with it would be the exception rather than the rule (usually for summer Guard Order/ Duty Officer, and Field Day Order before service dress was issued). For example the jacket was worn with trews as well as with kilt, and so as an undress garment had a variety of purposes.

NB.  Notice that the “NCO i/c Marching Reliefs” is wearing a doublet and not a drill jacket as he reads out the orders to the sentry.  

Edited 29 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I got the prices for the jackets from Toby, who also adds:

In January 1912 the garment is paper labelled as “Highland Jacket”. These jackets go by many names;   the Clothing Regulations (CRs) call them “Jacket Undress”, the Price list of Clothing and Necessaries (PLCN) call them “Jacket, White” and the RAClothing Factory returns “Jackets, Highland, Line”  

It is worth noting the similar style worn by the Guards is also listed a "Jacket, Undress" in the CRs, "Jacket, White" in the PLCN and as "Jackets, Foot Guards" in the RACF Returns, although the R & F version cost over a shilling more to produce than the Highland.

This wise Sassenach will allow these tribal mysteries to flow gently by. Our military forebears had enough to worry about without considering how complicated I find matters.

[gordon92]

As noted earlier in this thread, the Black Watch, HLI, Seaforth,Gordons, and Argylls dressed their Sergeant Majors almost identically to officers in full dress. The question I have been pursuing is whether these officer distinctions carried over to other orders of dress especially undress where the drill jacket was worn. I have found one data point that addresses this question. Both images below are dated 1904. The first shows SM Richard Fowler of the 1st Bn Black Watch in full dress looking like an officer. In the second he appears in undress wearing a scarlet drill jacket along with the pipe major and drum major. In this photo, Fowler clearly retains the officer features of sword belt and sash over left shoulder.

The "Drill Jacket, white" for officers was, I believe, authorized in 1902.  The "Drill Jacket, scarlet" continued to be listed as an undress uniform item through the 1911 Dress Regulations.

   

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, gordon92 said:

The "Drill Jacket, white" for officers was, I believe, authorized in 1902. 

That is possible if you have that definitive information from somewhere**, but it was not published until the new iteration of Dress Regulations in 1904.  For all line infantry the ‘scarlet frock’ (1900 DR) was replaced, leaving just the similar-in-design ‘blue frock’ (i.e. blue patrol).  For non Scottish the scarlet frock was replaced by the knee length blue frock-coat, as opposed to the white drill jacket, which was the replacement for Highland regiments##.

As you have previously mentioned it really needs a survey of all the Highland battalion’s SM to get a full picture.

** there were a number of other 1902 changes such as the introduction of drab serge service dress, and alterations to officers gold lace embellishments, and rank markings, that also did not appear in the dress regulations until the 1904 iteration, in effect publishing details after the event, a not uncommon outcome.

## this led to the Scottish pattern of the blue patrol jacket becoming battalion dress for occasions where in non Scot’s regiments the long frock coat was worn.  This 1902 change seems to have been the culminating point of an increasing separation of dress (that began in 1881) between Scots regiments, and the rest of the British line, which remained much more collegiate and uniform, regardless of English, Welsh and Irish identities.  I’m not so sure that that was a good thing in the longer run.  Otherness can be a good thing, but it’s debatable whether this had now gone too far.

Edited 30 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Incidentally, the photo of five Seaforth Highlanders in the photo above is worthy of special note in terms of rank badges, as no less than four different types of stripes and associated badges are visible in that image alone.  From left to right:

1. Lance Sergeant with white worsted web stripes on scarlet backing.

2. Lance Sergeant with red worsted web stripes on white backing.

3. Full Sergeant with gold universal lace stripes on scarlet backing.

4. Sergeant [assistant] Instructor of Musketry with gold universal lace stripes, etc. on white backing.**

5. Quarter-Master-Sergeant also with gold universal lace stripes (and star above) on scarlet backing.

** I think this explains the many bullion badges on white backing that I’ve seen, but hitherto not consciously matched with white drill jackets.

Edited 30 April by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That is possible if you have that definitive information from somewhere**, but it was not published until the new iteration of Dress Regulations in 1904.  For all line infantry the ‘scarlet frock’ (1900 DR) was replaced, leaving just the similar-in-design ‘blue frock’ (i.e. blue patrol).  For non Scottish the scarlet frock was replaced by the knee length blue frock-coat, as opposed to the white drill jacket, which was the replacement for Highland regiments##.

As you have previously mentioned it really needs a survey of all the Highland battalion’s SM to get a full picture.

** there were a number of other 1902 changes such as the introduction of drab serge service dress, and alterations to officers gold lace embellishments, and rank markings, that also did not appear in the dress regulations until the 1904 iteration, in effect publishing details after the event, a not uncommon outcome.

## this led to the Scottish pattern of the blue patrol jacket becoming battalion dress for occasions where in non Scot’s regiments the long frock coat was worn.  This 1902 change seems to have been the culminating point of an increasing separation of dress (that began in 1881) between Scots regiments, and the rest of the British line, which remained much more collegiate and uniform, regardless of English, Welsh and Irish identities.  I’m not so sure that that was a good thing in the longer run.  Otherness can be a good thing, but it’s debatable whether this had now gone too far.

 

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Incidentally, the photo of five Seaforth Highlanders in the photo above is worthy of special note in terms of rank badges, as no less than four different types of stripes and associated badges are visible in that image alone.  From left to right:

1. Lance Sergeant with white worsted web stripes on scarlet backing.

2. Lance Sergeant with red worsted web stripes on white backing.

3. Full Sergeant with gold universal lace stripes on scarlet backing.

4. Sergeant [assistant] Instructor of Musketry with gold universal lace stripes, etc. on white backing.**

5. Quarter-Master-Sergeant also with gold universal lace stripes (and star above) on scarlet backing.

** I think this explains the many bullion badges on white backing that I’ve seen, but hitherto not consciously matched with white drill jackets.

I do not have a definitive source such as an AO for the introduction of "Drill Jacket, white" for officers in 1902.  Nonetheless, it makes sense in that the 1904 DRs would be documenting "details after the event" as you have said.

Yes, your photo of the five Seaforth Highlanders is a good one and undoubtedly staged to reveal a diversity of uniform features. Indeed, the protuberance of the star above the QMS's rank chevrons is just barely visible. His 1st class quality doublet with gold lacing of universal pattern is on display. I previously thought that only full sergeants in the Seaforth Highlanders were entitled to wear the sergeant's pattern sporran with metal cantle, but I now see that this privilege is extended to lance sergeants.

"** I think this explains the many bullion badges on white backing that I’ve seen, but hitherto not consciously matched with white drill jackets"..... Also used on the white frock worn in hot weather review order in tropical locations.

Your earlier photo series of the A&SH officer's white jacket and Colonial pattern foreign service helmet with plate and hackle is quite impressive.  Unfortunately, the owner has mis-configured the shoulder belt and sash.  In the A&SH the sash should be underneath the shoulder belt.

[Muerrisch]

Regarding musketry, "assistant" was not included in the title [unlike signalling, for example].

 

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Regarding musketry, "assistant" was not included in the title [unlike signalling, for example].

 

Yes, I agree, that is specifically why I placed it in parentheses.  I did so because he was the de facto deputy and therefore by default technically the assistant.  The battalion instructor of musketry was a certificated commissioned officer, commonly the adjutant, who as the senior man was in charge overall.

Edited 30 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Also used on the white frock worn in hot weather review order in tropical locations.

Yes that’s an excellent point and useful reminder.

38 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Your earlier photo series of the A&SH officer's white jacket and Colonial pattern foreign service helmet with plate and hackle is quite impressive.  Unfortunately, the owner has mis-configured the shoulder belt and sash.  In the A&SH the sash should be underneath the shoulder belt.

It was seemingly displayed by the militaria dealer, who clearly didn’t have the knowledge of those who follow such matters as we do.

Edited 30 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Quote: Also used on the white frock worn in hot weather review order in tropical locations.

 

I am not at all sure that this was widespread, let alone universal. There are a lot of photos in circulation clearly showing a non-white backing material.

The general rule after 1868 was that badges [rank, apointment, skill at arms, GCB etc] should be backed with the tunic/frock/jacket material, for all except Household troops. Thus white would indeed be favourite. However, KD led the way with exceptions of several combinations, and I suspect badge on scarlet on tropical whites was common.

[FROGSMILE]

51 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

badge on scarlet on tropical whites was common.

It was for full sergeants, as you know.  The point Gordon92 was making I think is that white was correct as per the jacket material, just as you’ve mentioned.  It’s true of just about every clothing I can think of that sometimes the correct pattern isn’t available and so something else has to be used in lieu.  A sort of obvious outcome really.

Edited 2 May by FROGSMILE