Full Dress Distinctions for Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the Highland Infantry Regiments c1910-1914

[6RRF]

1 minute ago, gordon92 said:

Here's the photo of him from David Murray's Music of the Scottish Regiments.  Sorry about the orientation; the system has been rotating images on me lately.

Yes, that's the one and you can see very clearly the difference in tone between the Mackenzie tartan trews and the Mackenzie tartan plaid

[gordon92]

2 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Yes, that's the one and you can see very clearly the difference in tone between the Mackenzie tartan trews and the Mackenzie tartan plaid

That is indeed evident. Did Maugham serve in WW1 as far as you know? I haven't been able to find a MIC for him.

[FROGSMILE]

Here it is after rotation.  I think it is similarly evident in the 1869 photo of the 79th First Class Staff Sergeants, but in a slightly different way.

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

9 hours ago, gordon92 said:

That is indeed evident. Did Maugham serve in WW1 as far as you know? I haven't been able to find a MIC for him.

I've nothing on that, but there are plenty of people on this forum far better on that side of things than I am. He was certainly in the Boer War.

[gordon92]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Here it is after rotation.  I think it is similarly evident in the 1869 photo of the 79th First Class Staff Sergeants, but in a slightly different way.

Yes, in the 1869 photo the the kilt/plaid set of each individual appeared to be of the same material with the contrasts between sets. I can't seem to find the 1869 photo any longer. Did you take it down?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Yes, in the 1869 photo the the kilt/plaid set of each individual appeared to be of the same material with the contrasts between sets. I can't seem to find the 1869 photo any longer. Did you take it down?

No I haven’t taken it down.  It’s here:https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309961-full-dress-distinctions-for-staff-sergeants-and-warrant-officers-of-the-highland-infantry-regiments-c1910-1914/?do=findComment&comment=3285027

Here’s a Seaforth with his red sash on the wrong shoulder as far as the rest of the Army was concerned.  Not a colour sergeant, but a battalion HQ staff sergeant. 

 

Edited 27 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

SEEING RED?

•  The case for crimson as a descriptor of historical sashes, silk and worsted is strong. However, different people have different visual inputs when looking at the same artefact.
•  1802 the crimson sash was specified as such.
•  1845 specified the sash to be ‘of the National Crimson colour throughout’,
•  The sash colour rendered paler on orthochromatic film when compared with the scarlet tunic [nearer the blue end of the spectrum], so was probably what many [including the regulations], would indeed describe as crimson, and what contemporary late Victorian orders continue to refer to as crimson.
•  

 

  

• The Page 72 Infantry Uniform [scanned and pasted upstream] sash is officially called crimson. The Royal Army Clothing Factory described them as ‘Turkey Red’ .
• Water colours by Norie, McNeill, Ibbetson, Payne, Holloway cannot all be wrong, and show what many people would see as crimson.
• However modern worsted sashes are virtually the same colour scarlet as tunics, silk ones still recognisably crimson.
• Here is an example of official sash crimson made by the Turkey Red process, and a scarlet contrast. Courtesy Google.

 

 

 

[TullochArd]

28 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

SEEING RED?

Quite simply there were/are only two different sashes worn .......Crimson and Scarlet.  Beginning from the end of the 17th century commissioned officers in the British Army wore waist sashes of CRIMSON silk.  This colour never changed and continues to this day.  Crimson silk sashes were, and Crimson cotton sashes are, also worn by Warrant Officers Class One, Pipe Majors various to name a few.  They were also worn in certain SNCO/WO 'Staff' appointments prior to and during the Great War. The concurrent and historically developing Sergeant/SNCO equivalent was, and remains, a heavily woven broad piece of SCARLET fabric described, in it's latest incarnation within the current British Army Clothing Catalogue, as "sash, scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels"

The common historical denominator throughout remains: two very different colours (Crimson and Scarlet) associated with two very different pieces of uniform.

[Muerrisch]

13 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Quite simply there were/are only two different sashes worn .......Crimson and Scarlet.  Beginning from the end of the 17th century commissioned officers in the British Army wore waist sashes of CRIMSON silk.  This colour never changed and continues to this day.  Crimson silk sashes were, and Crimson cotton sashes are, also worn by Warrant Officers Class One, Pipe Majors various to name a few.  They were also worn in certain SNCO/WO 'Staff' appointments prior to and during the Great War. The concurrent and historically developing Sergeant/SNCO equivalent was, and remains, a heavily woven broad piece of SCARLET fabric described, in it's latest incarnation within the current British Army Clothing Catalogue, as "sash, scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels"

The common historical denominator throughout remains: two very different colours (Crimson and Scarlet) associated with two very different pieces of uniform.

Thank you very much. Do you have a Victorian period  official reference for the sergeant scarlet sash? I have spent ages looking for such a description in the usual places.

The "Page 72" paste upstream specifies crimson for sergeants per se.

I remain in doubt because large numbers of period photos clearly show non-staff wearing a sash which is not the same colour as the tunic.

Are all the watercolourists wrong?

 

Edited 27 March by Muerrisch

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

No I haven’t taken it down.  It’s here:https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/309961-full-dress-distinctions-for-staff-sergeants-and-warrant-officers-of-the-highland-infantry-regiments-c1910-1914/?do=findComment&comment=3285027

Here’s a Seaforth with his red sash on the wrong shoulder as far as the rest of the Army was concerned.  Not a colour sergeant, but a battalion HQ staff sergeant. 

 

Nice closeup showing the fine uniform detail of this 78th sergeant. It appears at this time that staff sergeants did not have a badge on their shoulder belts.  See another 78th image below that also shows a boy bandsman.

[TullochArd]

3 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Nice closeup showing the fine uniform detail of this 78th sergeant. It appears at this time that staff sergeants did not have a badge on their shoulder belts.  See another 78th image below that also shows a boy bandsman.

...... can't argue with that photo.  Here's another ........... the fellow on the right

 

[TullochArd]

7 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you very much. Do you have a Victorian period  official reference for the sergeant scarlet sash? I have spent ages looking for such a description in the usual places.

I remain in doubt because large numbers of period photos clearly show non-staff wearing a sash which is not the same colour as the tunic.

Are all the watercolourists wrong?

 

If I find a Victorian period official reference Muerrisch I will certainly make sure that you are the first to hear about it.

[Muerrisch]

58 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

If I find a Victorian period official reference Muerrisch I will certainly make sure that you are the first to hear about it.

Thank you. I will go back to my notes and provide my reference details which I summarised and simplified in my first post. Nice to be able to add Frogsmile's "crimson sergeant sash" as a new piece of evidence; Indian Regs 19xx I think.

Period portraits are not very forthcoming with the silk crimson staff sash ......... difficult to be sure but such staff often appear be in worsted. My theory is that, as the silk was five times the cost ot the worsted, the former might be kept for the most important parades.

Edited 27 March by Muerrisch

[gordon92]

3 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

...... can't argue with that photo.  Here's another ........... the fellow on the right

 

That is a provocative photo showing the staff sergeant's rank chevrons below the elbow and pointed up. That is in contrast to the previous 78th photo.  So, some time in the 1856 to approx 1870 period the staff sergeant rank chevrons did a flip at least in the 78th.

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/03/2024 at 21:10, TullochArd said:

...... can't argue with that photo.  Here's another ........... the fellow on the right

 

Incidentally the “fellow on the right” is The Sergeant Major (of battalion).  Because it was before 1881, and so precedes the elevation to warrant officer, he was indeed a First Class staff sergeant, but the most senior one in the battalion by appointment**.  His stripes are oriented the same as those I posted up-thread of the 79th First Class Staff Sergeant’s in India around the same time (1869).  That is why I commented (twice) that Major Dawnay had misinterpreted matters in his book because he seems not to have seen either collection of photographs.  I’m not sure that this thread has been read and digested fully.

** as well as his badge of rank he had ‘Engineer knots’ on his shoulder as a marker of his status.

NB.  By way of comparison note the orientation of the badge worn by the Sergeant Major of Battalion The Prince Albert’s 13th (Somersetshire) Light Infantry during exactly the same period and on the same 1856-1868 tunic.  This is the sort of image that Major Dawnay relied upon.  The differential wasn’t just a straight Highlanders versus English Line either, as I’ve seen the same inverted stripes worn a regiment outside that binary paradigm.

Edited 29 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

My theory is that, as the silk was five times the cost ot the worsted, the former might be kept for the most important parades.

Although I understand your rationale I don’t think it would be the case.  The First Class Staff would have taken (are known to have done) their dress privileges very seriously, and each man was issued just one sash if I recall the table of issues in the contemporary clothing regulations correctly.  Having a worsted sash too would have meant having someone else’s issue.  In later years having spare items was not unusual, but at that time my reading suggests that scales of issue were taken very seriously indeed, not least because there was a finite amount of transport to move it and ammunition, water, rations, fodder were strictly prioritised.

Edited 28 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Although I understand your rationale I don’t think it would be the case.  The First Class Staff would have taken (are known to have) their dress privileges very seriously and each man was issued just one sash if I recall the table of issues in the contemporary clothing regulations correctly.  Having a worsted sash too would have meant having someone else’s issue.  In later years having spare items was not unusual but at that time my reading suggests that scales of issue were taken very seriously indeed, not least because there was a finite amount of transport to move it.  

 

The sashes were personal clothing. Thus some worsted ones, pre-owned, might well be obtainable for a small consideration. I have not a single photo where I could say Ah! a silk sash. I will dig out a worsted in wear, which will prove nothing.

However, no big deal, we shall never know.

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

The sashes were personal clothing. Thus some worsted ones, pre-owned, might well be obtainable for a small consideration. I have not a single photo where I could say Ah! a silk sash. I will dig out a worsted in wear, which will prove nothing.

However, no big deal, we shall never know.

 

Yes I understand that they would have been accessible and had it been the late 1870s onwards I would have agreed 100% with you, so to be clear I’m talking specifically about the 1850s and 1860s decades.  I’ve got at least a couple of photos that show clearly the herringbone pattern bring worn, although I think from a period a little later.  If I can find them l’ll post them, albeit I don’t think either are of Highlanders.

For the unfamiliar here is how the herringbone weave looks, although on cotton, rather than silk, the contemporary colour is less crimson and more red than it used to be.  In part that was also because of Britain’s then problems with dyestuffs and it wasn’t until the turn of the 20th century that dyes imported from companies in Germany (merged post WW1 to become the vast conglomerate IG Farben) resolved once and for all the problem of colourfastness. https://www.icis.com/explore/resources/news/2008/05/12/9122542/germany-beat-the-british-to-dominate-dyes/

Incidentally the diagonal type of sergeants sash was a noticeably smoother texture weave than it had been previously in the 1850s, as well as narrower in the 1860s/70s than it became subsequently.

Edited 28 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Two very good pieces of evidence, one showing the colour drift from crimson to modern scarlet of the sergeants' worsted, and one showing 3rd Middlesex 1900 First Class Staff wearing sergeants crimson worsted identical to the sergeants in the row above. The hard edges are unmistakeable.

Both sourced and researched by Toby Brayley.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Two very good pieces of evidence, one showing the colour drift from crimson to modern scarlet of the sergeants' worsted, and one showing 3rd Middlesex 1900 First Class Staff wearing sergeants crimson worsted identical to the sergeants in the row above. The hard edges are unmistakeable.

Both sourced and researched by Toby Brayley.

While I agree with your comment regarding tones, I absolutely don’t regarding the herringbone type sash.  It was and has always been a thinner and less substantial cloth that drapes and sits very flat and shows wrinkles a little more easily in the way that thin cloth does when compared to the thicker worsted type.  Although much, much later I’m fortunate enough to have seen the two types up very close.  There were several times that I did so, but most specifically and memorably was a time of numerous parades in No 1 dress blue and no 2 dress SD during the late Queen’s silver jubilee in 1977.  My brother Sergeant John Roeser was one of the escorts to the colours and I was right marker of No 1 Guard.  The RSM was WO1 Brian Cooper and he was the only man on parade wearing the herringbone sash.  Around the same time there was a presentation of new colours.

Since that seminal experience I’ve seen the contemporary version sash many times and in all cases it sits as I’ve described.  Subsequently I’ve been fortunate to see and compare much older versions in a variety of infantry museums ranging from my favourite, the Green Howards because it has an unparalleled uniform collection, to the Border Regiment in Alnwick Castle to the SWB in Brecon, Devon’s and Dorset’s in Dorchester, RWF in Caernarfon and Welsh in Cardiff Castle.  Turning specifically to your photo I can make out the type I’m describing on the Sergeant Major (seated front far right), the Bandmaster adjacent to him and then the Band Sergeant, but I cannot see it on any others in the image.  I am 100% confident in this particular case so thank you for providing such a good quality image to make it easier.

Edited 28 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

While I agree with your comment regarding tones, I absolutely don’t regarding the herringbone type sash.  It was and has always been a thinner and less substantial cloth that drapes and sits very flat in the way that thin cloth does when compared to the thicker worsted type.  Although much, much later I’m fortunate enough to have seen the two types up very close.  There were several times that I did so but most specifically was a time of numerous parades in No 1 dress blue and no 2 dress SD during the late Queen’s silver jubilee in 1977.  My brother sergeant John Roeser was one of the escorts to the colours and I was right marker of No 1 Guard.  The RSM was WO1 Brian Cooper and he was the only man on parade wearing the herringbone sash.  Since then I’ve seen the contemporary version many times and in all cases it sits as I’ve described.  Subsequently I’ve been fortunate to see and compare much older versions in a variety of infantry museums ranging from my favourite, the Green Howards because it has an unparalleled uniform collection, to the Border Regiment in Alnwick Castle to the SWB in Brecon, Devon’s and Dorset’s in Dorchester, RWF in Caernarfon and Welsh in Cardiff Castle.  Turning specifically to your photo I can make out the type I’m describing on the Sergeant Major (seated front far right), the Bandmaster adjacent to him and then the Band Sergeant, but I cannot see it on any others in the image.  I am 100% confident in this particular case so thank you for providing such a good quality image to make it easier.

Thank you for agreeing that the old worsted sash was crimson. The modern one is definitely scarlet, and more's the pity, lacking contrast.

I don't think I mentioned herringbone, I was just saying worsted versus silk, and the photo was to show some staff sergeants in staff cap and with sword wearing a sergeants' worsted sash. Can we agree that the two on the left are? 

In any case I am talking Great War and before, and claim no knowledge of anything much after 1918.

With respect I fail to see that evidence can be admitted from a much later period.. The past is a different country.

Anyway I think this digression from the thread title has run its course.

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you for agreeing that the old worsted sash was crimson. The modern one is definitely scarlet, and more's the pity, lacking contrast.

I don't think I mentioned herringbone, I was just saying worsted versus silk, and the photo was to show some staff sergeants in staff cap and with sword wearing a sergeants' worsted sash. Can we agree that the two on the left are? 

In any case I am talking Great War and before, and claim no knowledge of anything much after 1918.

With respect I fail to see that evidence can be admitted from a much later period.. The past is a different country.

Anyway I think this digression from the thread title has run its course.

 

Just for the sake of clarity the silk version was herringbone, thinner and I agree more crimson in shade.  It’s only the cotton version that’s changed, presumably because of the difference in the way that silk took the dye when compared to cotton.  I’m still looking for the photos that show the herringbone quite well.  I think that one was a WO of the SWB around 1895.

Edited 28 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Just for the sake of clarity the silk version was herringbone, thinner and I agree more crimson in shade.  It’s only the cotton version that’s changed, presumably because of the difference in the way that silk took the dye when compared to cotton.  I’m still looking for the photos that show the herringbone quite well.  I think that one was a WO of the SWB around 1895.

Note how the three images of sergeants major immediately below contrast.  The upper, colour image is after 1881, and with inverted stripes below the elbow.

But, the other two images date to the 1860s, at a time when chevron stripes were all meant to be point downwards, as per the 46th example.  They thus match those of the 78th and 79th at the same time, but not those of the 13th, and many others, and also contradict what Major Dawnay believed and published through no fault of his own, he simply didn’t have access to the evidence that we have in the digital age.

In short, the 1860s was a confused period following the Crimean War, with various changes in uniform, and associated badges of rank at the most senior level being worn in contradictory ways between different infantry regiments (see 77th and 19th groups as comparison - Sgt Maj badge upper arm on one, lower arm on the other!).  I suspect that this was one of the reasons why such explicit instructions were given to attempt a standardisation of how badges of rank were to be worn, in the Childers reforms of 1881.  Those principles then remained largely unchanged until the seismic upheaval brought about by WW1.

NB.  There is some visual evidence that in the 1860s the First Class Staff of some regiments using shell jackets wore their stripes on the lower arm, but on the upper arm of tunics.  It needs further research to ascertain the extent of it.

 

Edited 29 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you for agreeing that the old worsted sash was crimson. The modern one is definitely scarlet, and more's the pity, lacking contrast.

I don't think I mentioned herringbone, I was just saying worsted versus silk, and the photo was to show some staff sergeants in staff cap and with sword wearing a sergeants' worsted sash. Can we agree that the two on the left are? 

In any case I am talking Great War and before, and claim no knowledge of anything much after 1918.

With respect I fail to see that evidence can be admitted from a much later period.. The past is a different country.

Anyway I think this digression from the thread title has run its course.

 

Well it took me a while to find them, as I couldn’t remember which thumbstick they were on, but here’re my best two images of the silk sash for First Class dress, which was woven in a herringbone style.  I don’t know when that weaving practice began, and it’s not made clear in clothing regulations, but examining the uniform with which it’s worn in photographs, I think it probably came in with the 1883 clothing changes following the 1881 Childers Reforms**.

Both qualities of sash had a lip (not a welt as it wasn’t stitched) directly woven into the edges, but the worsted (lower quality) sashes lip was a little more pronounced and so often visual if close enough.  The herringbone sash (silk and cotton) was a thinner fabric and it’s lip a bit less pronounced, but it’s thinness made it easier to crease, especially at the point where it narrowed down to the tassels.  Notice how the repeating rows of herringbone give a subtle striped effect that is only noticeable if you get close enough.  It is apparent in both photographs, which is why I retained them as visual examples.

Finally, the sash shown contrasting quite distinctly over the scarlet of the Foot Guards tunic, is the previous shade that I remember, and is what I’ve always thought of as crimson, as opposed to the supposed scarlet, or Turkey red of the lesser quality, standard sergeants worsted sash. It certainly seems to have become more red with the contemporary issue, whose image I posted a bit earlier in the thread.

**the silk and worsted differential is briefly described in the 1864 War Office publication on infantry equipment by Captain Martin Petrie, but there’s no mention of a herringbone weave.

Edited 29 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And here is the worsted type as comparator.  Note the more pronounced lip and absence of any subtle striped effect.