Full Dress Distinctions for Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the Highland Infantry Regiments c1910-1914

[gordon92]

Inspired by the recently published book The Staff Sergeants of British Line Infantry Regular Battalions 1848 to 1919 by Forum Member Muerrisch and my own curiosity, this is a brief study of the full dress distinctions for the Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the six Highland infantry regiments circa 1910-1914.  The scope entails the two regular battalions of each regiment.

Presented below are tables that match uniform features – headdress, shoulder belts, waistbelts, scarf plaid, fly plaid, red/scarlet sash, dirk, sporran, sword – to each regiment.  A table is displayed for each of six WO/Staff Sergeant appointments – Sergeant Major, Bandmaster, Quartermaster Sergeant, Sergeant Drummer, Sergeant Piper, and Colour Sergeant so that the differences between regiments can be compared.  This information was extracted from photographic evidence in the approximate 1910 to 1914 period.  Comments accompany each table.

While the Highland regiments followed the general tenets of the various clothing regulations and orders assiduously outlined in the aforementioned book, there were exceptions and variations in the uniform details of these six regiments and even between the two battalions of each regiment.

I hope this will be of interest to those who care about these details.  Comments on errors and omissions plus additional data are, of course, welcome and solicited.

Sergeant Major: The Black Watch, HLI, and Gordons dressed their SMs identically to officers.  The Seaforth and Argylls SMs were dressed almost identically to officers.  The Camerons’ SM was attired mostly as a 1^st class staff sergeant.  Earlier photos dating from the 1890s to the early 1900s show that SM full dress evolved in most regiments from that of 1^st class staff sergeants into officer style dress.

 

Bandmaster: The same pattern is seen here.  Black Watch, HLI, Gordon, and Argyll Bandmasters looked like officers. The HLI Bandmaster wore a feather bonnet with red hackle in lieu of a shako. The Seaforth Bandmaster had an officer’s pattern undress sporran instead of the full dress version with gold bullions.  The Cameron Bandmaster appeared as a 1^st class staff sergeant; his full scarf plaid retains the conspicuous front fall (instead of “piper style” where this appendage is slung back over the shoulder and hidden).

 

Quartermaster Sergeant: They dressed rather homogeneously across regiments as 1^st class staff sergeants. The exceptions were the HLI who, of course, wore a shako and trews; the Black Watch and Seaforth QMSs had a fly plaid with front fall instead of the scarf plaid; and the Cameron QMS did not wear a sash.

 

 

Sergeant Drummer/Sergeant Bugler: All the Drum Majors paraded with the regimental sash (that displayed the symbolic miniature drumsticks) draped over the left shoulder. After that, each regiment had a mind of its own in dressing the Drum Major.  The Bugle Majors of the Highland Light Infantry were the exception. They did not wear a regimental sash.  If, hypothetically, the Bugle Majors of the two HLI battalions were to stand adjacent to each other, it could easily be suspected that each was from a different regiment, perhaps, even from a different planet! The Bugle Major of the 1^st Battalion HLI led the pipes and bugles (which retained that designation even after drums were introduced into the 1^st Bn in 1908) fitted out in a shako with green plume and cap lines carrying the short light infantry cane.  In contrast, the 2^nd Battalion Bugle Major turned out in a feather bonnet with red hackle and cap lines holding the long, heavy infantry mace.  These features reflected the very different heritages of the antecedent 71^st and 74^th Regiments.

 

Sergeant Piper:  Ostensibly, all the pipers look somewhat alike at first glance.  However, the perusal of the table below reveals significant differences in how the Pipe Majors were dressed. The most conspicuous is that the Black Watch Pipe Major wears a feather bonnet with its signature red hackle while the other regiments wear glengarries.  Most regiments adorn the glengarry with the blackcock feather, but the Camerons use the eagle feather; the 2^nd Seaforth has no feather at all in the glengarry.  The sporrans worn by the Pipe Majors are very unalike regiment by regiment.  In the HLI and Seaforth Highlanders, the Pipe Majors of the two battalions have quite dissimilar sporrans.

 

Colour Sergeant: In five of the six regiments, the Colour Sergeants were dressed somewhat similarly.  The outlier, as usual, is the HLI. Its Colour Sergeants used the scarf plaid instead of the fly plaid, shako instead of feather bonnet, and, of course, trews instead of kilt.

To reiterate, the study presented here was based on anecdotal photographic evidence.  There is some indication that these uniform features varied from time to time.  After all, the fine details of how the pipers, drummers, or warrant officers dressed were the regiment’s own affair sometimes subject to the whims of the commanding officer, pipes president, band president, and, to a much lesser extent, probably the preferences of the individual holding the appointment at the time.  In that connection, it is unclear to me how much of a warrant officer’s uniform was furnished at public expense, and which items were private purchase. For example, it seems entirely possible that a WO had discretion whether to invest in a quite expensive item such as a dirk.  Would those Forum members with a better understanding of the rules governing the provisioning of these senior non-commissioned officers care to weigh in on this point?

EDIT -

Footnote (suggested by member Frogsmile): The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders fitted all their warrant officers and staff sergeants with full scarf plaids but the scarlet or crimson sash was not worn in full dress unlike the other regiments.  This may seem incongruent since the sash was a distinction of rank and status for sergeants. As explained to me some time ago by an old Cameron Highlander, "frippery" was despised in the Cameron Highlanders. For WOs and staff sergeants it was thus felt that the conspicuous scarf plaid was distinction enough for these ranks, and the added sash would have been excessive ostentation. It should be stressed that this applies only to ceremonial full dress. Another aspect of this "corporate culture" is seen in the kilts worn by the Camerons. They were the only British kilted regiment who applied neither kilt pin nor rosettes to their kilts for all ranks. In contradiction to this frippery aversion, the Cameron Highlanders officer full dress sporran was, arguably, the most splendorous of the military sporrans. Its six gold bullions on a grey ground attached to a massive gilted cantle etched with the regimental badge, battle honors, and wreaths of thistle was a thing of beauty. This contradiction remains unexplained.

ERRATA-

Sergeant Drummer / Sergeant Bugler table corrected to show that the scarf plaid of the Sergeant Bugler of the HLI was tied piper style for the 1st Battalion and with front fall for the 2nd Battalion.

 

 

Edited 16 April by gordon92

[FROGSMILE]

I would like to congratulate you Mike on a superbly researched and presented piece of work on the increasingly arcane seeming (as time goes on) peccadilloes of dress uniform for the old highland regiments.  I think that the detailed explanation, nuances and caveats have been perfectly brought together and made clear and accessible for those interested, in an easy to follow format.

 I have only two observations, and a quick answer to your question regarding dirks.  The first observation is really just an aside that the traditional description of the drum majors (sergeant drummer) shoulder belt, or sash was ceremonial ‘baldric’ and I think that is worth mentioning both, historically, and because it is less likely to be confused with other sashes/belts.  My second observation is more substantive and relates to whether or not a QMS of the QO (Cameron) Highlanders wore a red / scarlet SNCO’s sash.  It was a part of all sergeants badge of rank and indeed an older marker of status than badges on the arm**.  I therefore think it more likely that the sash was obscured by something rather than not worn at all, or alternatively the image showed an incidence where it had been removed (I cannot comment further without seeing the reference[s].  That said, there is an interesting precursor, in that though a commissioned officer with honorary rank, the line infantry quarter-master was not permitted to wear an officers sash ## and had a black leather pouch belt instead.  However, that was an universal stipulation rather than just one regiment, so different in an important way.

As regards your closing question I think it likely that the staff sergeants dirks were funded under regimental arrangements, similarly to the woven bullion wire and silk cap badges of staff sergeants in those regiments wearing the round (aka ‘staff’) forage cap.  This funding was traditionally underpinned by profits from the regimental canteens.  There is sometimes mention of these funds in some iterations of clothing regulations, and certainly the ‘regimental arrangements’ caveat is commonly mentioned, but without getting into the detail of what each individual regiment did.  I think that the regimental band pouch badges were supported in a similar way, but by the band fund subscription paid by officers.  In addition, with regards to the Dirk, it wasn’t uncommon for them to be presented by fellow sergeants upon promotion, again paid for by subscription via the mandatory mess membership fees paid monthly nowadays but weekly originally.  Occasionally one of these dirks, or sghean dubhs comes up at auction having been engraved on the blade, or in the case of latter, fitted with a small plate on the reverse side of the handle inscribed with presentation details.  Officers blades were decorated (acid etched), other ranks generally plain.  Rank and file dirks were Ordnance issue like a Gurkha’s kukri.  See also: 

 

Congratulations again on a really first class piece of work.

** until around 1922 red sashes were only worn with scarlet tunics, scarlet frocks, white drill jackets, and tropical ceremonial forms of dress (e.g. whites) when on duty, or parading with formed bodies of men.  They were not worn in office, and like an officer’s Sam Browne were taken off when in the mess.  They were not worn with ‘service dress’ (including pre khaki), mess dress (unless orderly sergeant of the day), or blue patrol jacket (which was an undress garment at the time).

## Foot Guards quarter-masters alone were authorised to wear an officers’ crimson sash.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I would like to congratulate you Mike on a superbly researched and presented piece of work on the increasingly arcane seeming (as time goes on) peccadilloes of dress uniform for the old highland regiments.  I think that the detailed explanation, nuances and caveats have been perfectly brought together and made clear and accessible for those interested, in an easy to follow format.

 I have only two observations, and a quick answer to your question regarding dirks.  The first observation is really just an aside that the traditional description of the drum majors (sergeant drummer) shoulder belt, or sash was ceremonial ‘baldric’ and I think that is worth mentioning both, historically, and because it is less likely to be confused with other sashes/belts.  My second observation is more substantive and relates to whether or not a QMS of the QO (Cameron) Highlanders wore a red / scarlet SNCO’s sash.  It was a part of all sergeants badge of rank and indeed an older marker of status than badges on the arm**.  I therefore think it more likely that the sash was obscured by something rather than not worn at all, or alternatively the image showed an incidence where it had been removed (I cannot comment further without seeing the reference[s].  That said, there is an interesting precursor, in that though a commissioned officer with honorary rank, the line infantry quarter-master was not permitted to wear an officers sash ## and had a black leather pouch belt instead.  However, that was an universal stipulation rather than just one regiment, so different in an important way.

As regards your closing question I think it likely that the staff sergeants dirks were funded under regimental arrangements, similarly to the woven bullion wire and silk cap badges of staff sergeants in those regiments wearing the round (aka ‘staff’) forage cap.  This funding was traditionally underpinned by profits from the regimental canteens.  There is sometimes mention of these funds in some iterations of clothing regulations, and certainly the ‘regimental arrangements’ caveat is commonly mentioned, but without getting into the detail of what each individual regiment did.  I think that the regimental band pouch badges were supported in a similar way, but by the band fund subscription paid by officers.  In addition, with regards to the Dirk, it wasn’t uncommon for them to be presented by fellow sergeants upon promotion, again paid for by subscription via the mandatory mess membership fees paid monthly nowadays but weekly originally.  Occasionally one of these dirks, or sghean dubhs comes up at auction having been engraved on the blade, or in the case of latter, fitted with a small plate on the reverse side of the handle inscribed with presentation details.  Officers blades were decorated (acid etched), other ranks generally plain.  Rank and file dirks were Ordnance issue like a Gurkha’s kukri.  See also: 

 

Congratulations again on a really first class piece of work.

** until around 1922 red sashes were only worn with scarlet tunics, scarlet frocks, white drill jackets, and tropical ceremonial forms of dress (e.g. whites) when on duty, or parading with formed bodies of men.  They were not worn in office, and like an officer’s Sam Browne were taken off when in the mess.  They were not worn with service dress, mess dress (unless orderly sergeant of the day), or blue patrol jacket (which was an undress garment at the time).

## Foot Guards quarter-masters alone were authorised to wear an officers’ crimson sash.

Frogsmile..... Many thanks for your commentary and your answer to my question about funding of the dirks as well as the additional information on dirks.

Regarding your surprise that the Cameron QMS was not designated as wearing a sash, I can see that this could seem counter-intuitive for the reason you state.  However, I am quite certain that the staff sergeants and warrant officers of the Cameron Highlanders had no sashes in full dress. See the standalone photo of a Cameron QMS below where there is no sash present. Also included is a photo of the sergeants of the 1st Battalion taken 31st July 1910 after Sunday church parade. They are posed with then Maj General James Moncrief Grierson. The first row L to R (facing) is Sergeant Piper William Kinnear (standing), unknown sergeant, Sergeant Master Tailor J Robertson, QMS Edwin J Wilkins, Sgt Major AJ MacDonald, Lt Col FA MacFarlan, Maj Gen JM Grierson, Brig Gen F Davies, Lieut & Adjt GJ Scovell, Bandmaster WH Abbott, QMS (ORS) RC Williams, Sergeant Drummer G Scotland, and another unknown sergeant. All staff sergeants (regardless of actual rank) and warrant officers wore full scarf plaids and without sashes in this photo.  The other sergeants wore the belted fly plaid with sash. These dress standards were further conveyed to me some time ago by my mentor, the late David Murray who himself served in the Cameron Highlanders beginning in 1940 and whose father, James Murray, joined the Camerons in 1906 serving until 1927. In contrast, an image of a Gordon QMS is also shown below where the sash is clearly shown.

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Frogsmile..... Many thanks for your commentary and your answer to my question about funding of the dirks as well as the additional information on dirks.

Regarding your surprise that the Cameron QMS was not designated as wearing a sash, I can see that this could seem counter-intuitive for the reason you state.  However, I am quite certain that the staff sergeants and warrant officers of the Cameron Highlanders had no sashes in full dress. See the standalone photo of a Cameron QMS below where there is no sash present. Also included is a photo of the sergeants of the 1st Battalion taken 31st July 1910 after Sunday church parade. They are posed with then Maj General James Moncrief Grierson. The first row L to R (facing) is Sergeant Piper William Kinnear (standing), unknown sergeant, Sergeant Master Tailor J Robertson, QMS Edwin J Wilkins, Sgt Major AJ MacDonald, Lt Col FA MacFarlan, Maj Gen JM Grierson, Brig Gen F Davies, Lieut & Adjt GJ Scovell, Bandmaster WH Abbott, QMS (ORS) RC Williams, Sergeant Drummer G Scotland, and another unknown sergeant. All staff sergeants (regardless of actual rank) and warrant officers wore full scarf plaids and without sashes in this photo.  The other sergeants wore the belted fly plaid with sash. These dress standards were further conveyed to me some time ago by my mentor, the late David Murray who himself served in the Cameron Highlanders beginning in 1940 and whose father, James Murray, joined the Camerons in 1906 serving until 1927. In contrast, an image of a Gordon QMS is also shown below where the sash is clearly shown.

Thank you Mike, that’s fascinating information and the rationale of the regimental method of wearing plaid makes sense to me now.   It’s an unusual dress differential and I think probably unique in the infantry.  I did see the enclosed cigarette card of a QO Cameron’s QMS that bore out what you’ve explained and I was puzzled by it, at first wondering if it was some unique auxiliaries thing, but then on reflection quickly ruling that out.

It’s such an unusual departure from traditional infantry practice that I think it justifies you explaining it in a footnote to your excellent rundown of dress.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Well done Gordon92 and thank you for the plug!

PM sending.

[gordon92]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Mike, that’s fascinating information and the rationale of the regimental method of wearing plaid makes sense to me now.   It’s an unusual dress differential and I think probably unique in the infantry.  I did see the enclosed cigarette card of a QO Cameron’s QMS that bore out what you’ve explained and I was puzzled by it, at first wondering if it was some unique militia/special reserve thing but then quickly ruling that out.

It’s such an unusual departure from traditional infantry practice that I think it justifies you explaining it in a footnote to your excellent rundown of dress.

Frogsmile...... Added a footnote at the very end per your suggestion. Included was an explanation of why the sashes were not worn plus a mention of other Cameron idiosyncrasies. That was a good idea.

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/03/2024 at 23:05, gordon92 said:

Frogsmile...... Added a footnote at the very end per your suggestion. Included was an explanation of why the sashes were not worn plus a mention of other Cameron idiosyncrasies. That was a good idea.

What you have produced is excellent and I will be printing it off and placing it with my various Scottish uniform publications as a useful check list and point of reference.  Your painstaking work could easily stand as an admirable source of information for decades to come.  In thinking about it over the course of this evening I believe that it very likely was a regimental practice only in relation to review order, when full dress doublets and plaids were worn.

It doesn’t seem likely that sashes were never worn by the battalion staff at all though, as presumably they’d have worn sashes with white, ‘drill order’ shell jackets, and undress scarlet frocks of Inverness type, where if I recall correctly the full review order type plaids were not routinely worn.  That would especially be so for the foreign service battalion in India, where tropical whites were used for review order during the hot season - and in such heat I can find no evidence of shoulder plaids for any SNCOs at all.  What is your understanding of those various aspects?

 As you correctly emphasised to readers in your piece, these things evolved over time, as items and patterns of regimental uniform altered and led to changes in practice.  An example in case is the enclosed image circa 1855, which shows a Cameron Highlanders group that includes the [edit] Depot Sergeant Major, at that time a First Class staff sergeant who was wearing a red sash with his order of dress.  He is dressed in a coatee.  On the right is the QMS, also a First Class staff sergeant**, and at that time wearing a 4-bar chevron on the upper arm point down.  He wears a shell jacket of the type discontinued around 1868.

See also the large group photo circa 1864, where among many SNCOs the sergeant major of battalion can be seen centrally, close to the front and wearing a doublet rather than coatee this time.  His 4-bar and crown badge of rank now on the lower arms and inverted.  Again, a red sash is clearly visible.

In the water colour painting dated 1938 the Sergeant Piper (Pipe Major) is in review order and shown as wearing a red sash.  It isn’t clear which battalion he is, but their historical lineage is the same anyway.

Conclusion.  It seems to be the case then that the Cameron Highlanders battalion headquarters staff only ceased wearing red sashes with review order for the finite period that full shoulder plaids were introduced and worn, and up until the withholding of war office supplied full dress after 1914.  It will be ideal if you could make clear in your footnote specifically that the absence of sashes related only to the ceremonial full dress, and not the regiments undress so that “did not wear sashes” isn’t interpreted too literally by those less familiar at any point downstream.

** stripes were narrower at that time as is better seen on the white drill order jacket.  They had only relatively recently changed from regimental lace to white or red tape, although sergeants and staff sergeants were gold lace.

 

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

@gordon92, Unless you are planning for your research to be part of a book, perhaps you would consider uploading it to the Internet Archive as a Community Text, (also called  opensource) to make it readily available now and for the future.  Generally  the upload file would   be pdf format, and the actual uploading is not difficult.

https://help.archive.org/help/category/archive-org/uploading/ 

Maureen

[gordon92]

14 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

What you have produced is excellent and I will be printing it off and placing it with my various Scottish uniform publications as a useful check list and point of reference.  Your painstaking work could easily stand as an admirable source of information for decades to come.  In thinking about it over the course of this evening I believe that it very likely was a regimental practice only in relation to review order, when full dress doublets and plaids were worn.

It doesn’t seem likely that sashes were never worn by the battalion staff at all though, as presumably they’d have worn sashes with white, ‘drill order’ shell jackets, and undress scarlet frocks of Inverness type, where if I recall correctly the full review order type plaids were not routinely worn.  That would especially be so for the foreign service battalion in India, where tropical whites were used for review order during the hot season - and in such heat I can find no evidence of shoulder plaids for any SNCOs at all.  What is your understanding of those various aspects?

 As you correctly emphasised to readers in your piece, these things evolved over time, as items and patterns of regimental uniform altered and led to changes in practice.  An example in case is the enclosed image circa 1855, which shows a Cameron Highlanders group that includes the [edit] Depot Sergeant Major, at that time a First Class staff sergeant who was wearing a red sash with his order of dress.  He is dressed in a coatee.  On the right is the QMS, also a First Class staff sergeant**, and at that time wearing a 4-bar chevron on the upper arm point down.  He wears a shell jacket of the type discontinued around 1868.

See also the large group photo circa 1864, where among many SNCOs the sergeant major of battalion can be seen centrally, close to the front and wearing a doublet rather than coatee this time.  His 4-bar and crown badge of rank now on the lower arms and inverted.  Again, a red sash is clearly visible.

In the water colour painting dated 1938 the Sergeant Piper (Pipe Major) is in review order and shown as wearing a red sash.  It isn’t clear which battalion he is, but their historical lineage is the same anyway.

Conclusion.  It seems to be the case then that the Cameron Highlanders battalion headquarters staff only ceased wearing red sashes with review order for the finite period that full shoulder plaids were introduced and worn, and up until the withholding of war office supplied full dress after 1914.  It will be ideal if you could make clear in your footnote specifically that the absence of sashes related only to the ceremonial full dress, and not the regiments undress so that “did not wear sashes” isn’t interpreted too literally by those less familiar at any point downstream.

** stripes were narrower at that time as is better seen on the white drill order jacket.  They had only relatively recently changed from regimental lace to white or red tape, although sergeants and staff sergeants were gold lace.

 

The pre-1855 photo of the SM in coatee and the pre-1868 photo (1868 was the year that Highland doublets changed to gauntlet cuffs) of the SM in doublet do reveal that the sash was part of the full dress uniform for staff at one time. 

Your hypothesis that the sash probably was worn in undress (white drill-jacket) does make sense, and I would concur.  I cannot validate that with photographic evidence right now. The closest I can come to that is this 1920 photo of the drum major of the 2nd Battalion in service dress taken in Germany wearing a sash. I have a number of issues of the 79th News from the 1910 period that I will peruse over the weekend to see if they reveal anything more substantial on this point.

Edit - The footnote has been amended to clarify that the sash issue is pertinent only to full dress.

Edited 22 March by gordon92

[gordon92]

9 hours ago, MaureenE said:

@gordon92, Unless you are planning for your research to be part of a book, perhaps you would consider uploading it to the Internet Archive as a Community Text, (also called  opensource) to make it readily available now and for the future.  Generally  the upload file would   be pdf format, and the actual uploading is not difficult.

https://help.archive.org/help/category/archive-org/uploading/ 

Maureen

Maureen,

Sure, I should be able to convert my original post to a pdf file with little difficulty. I'll do that over the weekend and upload it. Will let you know if I experience any problems. Thanks for the idea.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

The pre-1855 photo of the SM in coatee and the pre-1868 photo (1868 was the year that Highland doublets changed to gauntlet cuffs) of the SM in doublet do reveal that the sash was part of the full dress uniform for staff at one time. 

Your hypothesis that the sash probably was worn in undress (white drill-jacket) does make sense, and I would concur.  I cannot validate that with photographic evidence right now. The closest I can come to that is this 1920 photo of the drum major of the 2nd Battalion in service dress taken in Germany wearing a sash. I have a number of issues of the 79th News from the 1910 period that I will peruse over the weekend to see if they reveal anything more substantial on this point.

Thanks Mike, I will be interested to learn of anything more that you uncover.  Given the entire history of the 79th / QO Cameron Highlanders, the period that the battalion staff was without a red sash seems quite short, and only in relation to review order.  For the sake of posterity it’s important to make that clear.

Undress for SNCOs isn’t just white drill jacket and includes Inverness type scarlet frocks** (other than when worn in lieu of doublets in some stations), mess dress, and blue patrol jackets (sashes were not worn with these until modern times).

**these were worn without red sash as service dress marching/field day order until khaki drill became universally available.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Here's a 1902 photo of the QOCH showing a SSgt, a Sgt and a Pte in the same order of dress  The SSgt/WO dress included the full plaid/plaid brooch, a broadsword/sword belt and gold lace on tunic cuffs and collar.  The full plaid and broadsword are worn in lieu of sash.  The Sgt wears a sash and plain tunic. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Here's a 1902 photo of the QOCH showing a SSgt, a Sgt and a Pte in the same order of dress  The SSgt/WO dress included the full plaid/plaid brooch, a broadsword/sword belt and gold lace on tunic cuffs and collar.  The full plaid and broadsword are worn in lieu of sash.  The Sgt wears a sash and plain tunic. 

 

That’s really helpful TullochArd, as I was wondering which pattern of doublet was in use when the full shoulder plaid was first adopted by the battalion staff.  I imagine it was in the period after 1881, but am unsure and still researching.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Mike, I will be interested to learn of anything more that you uncover.  Given the entire history of the 79th / QO Cameron Highlanders, the period that the battalion staff was without a red sash seems quite short, and only in relation to review order.  For the sake of posterity it’s important to make that clear.

Undress for SNCOs isn’t just white drill jacket and includes Inverness type scarlet frocks (other than when worn in lieu of doublets in some stations), mess dress, and blue patrol jackets (sashes were not worn with these until modern times). 

Will certainly let you know if I find anything further.  In the Highland regiments, the red serge frock was only worn on foreign service, never at home for the regular battalions. The Lowland regiments used the serge frock (rifle green for Cam/SR) in undress at home until 1902 when it was superseded by service dress.

[gordon92]

27 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Here's a 1902 photo of the QOCH showing a SSgt, a Sgt and a Pte in the same order of dress  The SSgt/WO dress included the full plaid/plaid brooch, a broadsword/sword belt and gold lace on tunic cuffs and collar.  The full plaid and broadsword are worn in lieu of sash.  The Sgt wears a sash and plain tunic. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s really helpful TullochArd, as I was wondering which pattern of doublet was in use when the full shoulder plaid was first adopted by the battalion staff.  I imagine it was in the period after 1881, but am unsure and still researching.

That is a really interesting photo, TullochArd. It shows that the man on the left as an ordinary sergeant in rank, when appointed to the staff, was entitled to wear a 1st class quality doublet. I wonder why the sergeant in the center is not wearing his fly plaid. The Pte on the right also does not appear to have a fly plaid on, although his would be less visible without a front fall.

Frogsmile.... Technical question: I often have the same problem as TullochArd, i.e., when loading images the message board system tends to rotate them 90 degrees. How did you straighten out his image?

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/03/2024 at 14:38, gordon92 said:

Will certainly let you know if I find anything further.  In the Highland regiments, the red serge frock was only worn on foreign service, never at home for the regular battalions. The Lowland regiments used the serge frock (rifle green for Cam/SR) in undress at home until 1902 when it was superseded by service dress.

Indeed, I was merely listing the undress in it’s entirety from a regimental perspective.  White drill jacket on the home establishment.  Scarlet serge and KD in India, and in the Mediterranean doublet, white drill, and serge (for field dress) were issued until the latter was replaced by drab SD from 1902, including in Egypt.  In all of those it seems that only review order with its full shoulder plaid excluded the red sash.

NB.  You do need to stipulate Review Order in your footnote rather than just full dress Mike, because that is the primary aspect.  Review Order could be and was created in some stations by dressing up (adding lace etc) scarlet serge and wearing it with plaids.

On 22/03/2024 at 14:54, gordon92 said:

 

That is a really interesting photo, TullochArd. It shows that the man on the left as an ordinary sergeant in rank, when appointed to the staff, was entitled to wear a 1st class quality doublet. I wonder why the sergeant in the center is not wearing his fly plaid. The Pte on the right also does not appear to have a fly plaid on, although his would be less visible without a front fall.

Frogsmile.... Technical question: I often have the same problem as TullochArd, i.e., when loading images the message board system tends to rotate them 90 degrees. How did you straighten out his image?

I save the image to my iPhone as a photo.  Then go to Edit and use the icons for manipulation to turn the image to its appropriate orientation.  It’s uncomplicated and takes a few seconds.  You then upload it in its corrected orientation.

Edited 24 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

If all the photos are of the same regiment I note that the crimson sash changed shoulders at some time.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

If all the photos are of the same regiment I note that the crimson sash changed shoulders at some time.

A reversed print if a photo, or a simple error if a painting.  Sergeants sash should be over right shoulder, officers over left at that time, as you will recall, apart from the unique reversal of that arrangement by the sergeants of the 13th / Prince Albert’s Somerset Light Infantry.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

That is a really interesting photo, TullochArd. It shows that the man on the left as an ordinary sergeant in rank, when appointed to the staff, was entitled to wear a 1st class quality doublet. I wonder why the sergeant in the center is not wearing his fly plaid. The Pte on the right also does not appear to have a fly plaid on, although his would be less visible without a front fall.

Now this one may add another serial to a column on your chart gordon92.  The man on the left of the photo I added is actually the QOCH Master Tailor who is also a member of the Bn Staff.  Master Tailors and Tailors are peculiar in that they were/are on the Establishment of all Highland Regiments.

Regarding the Sgt's/Pte's invisible plaid.  This version is the Fly Plaid pattern worn by the QOCH and QO later HLDRS/HLDRS drummers (see photo) is secured on the back, from the back, and held in place with a cord and rosette. Importantly is not visible on the front head on.  Post Great War it seems to have been binned for Review Order and a fringed pattern with a tail visible from the front - a pattern was more akin, but far less substantial, than the contemporary Belted Plaid worn by officers.

[TullochArd]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sergeants sash should be over right shoulder, officers over left at that time, as you will recall, apart from the unique reversal of that arrangement by the sergeants of the 13th / Prince Albert’s Somerset Light Infantry.

......and the inevitably awkward Pipe Majors of the British Army!

[Muerrisch]

37 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Now this one may add another serial to a column on your chart gordon92.  The man on the left of the photo I added is actually the QOCH Master Tailor who is also a member of the Bn Staff.  Master Tailors and Tailors are peculiar in that they were/are on the Establishment of all Highland Regiments.

Regarding the Sgt's/Pte's invisible plaid.  This version is the Fly Plaid pattern worn by the QOCH and QO later HLDRS/HLDRS drummers (see photo) is secured on the back, from the back, and held in place with a cord and rosette. Importantly is not visible on the front head on.  Post Great War it seems to have been binned for Review Order and a fringed pattern with a tail visible from the front - a pattern was more akin, but far less substantial, than the contemporary Belted Plaid worn by officers.

Ah! Well! Master tailors! Who in their position would not cut a dash when they could get away with it.

From a book I have in front of me................

In 1863 the master tailor ranked as a platoon sergeant.

The 1881 clothing of ‘sergeants’ quality’ was for eight staff: the armourer sergeant, paymaster sergeant, orderly room sergeant, hospital sergeant, sergeant cook, sergeant pioneer, sergeant instructor of fencing & gymnasia, and sergeant master tailor. QVR went out of its way to say the incumbent was 'not staff'.

In 1890 he was listed for sergeant's quality

In 1901 the War Office gave in and made him / had made him a staff sergeant, just in time for full dress to come to an end in 1914.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

......and the inevitably awkward Pipe Majors of the British Army!

Indeed, given the inevitable conflict with his ceremonial baldric!

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

A reversed print if a photo, or a simple error if a painting.  Sergeants sash should be over right shoulder, officers over left at that time, as you will recall, apart from the unique reversal of that arrangement by the sergeants of the 13th / Prince Albert’s Somerset Light Infantry.

'Fraid not. SLI  seems to be not unique for at least a short while.

• The 1855 is not reversed .... csgt badge on right arm.
• The large group next below it also has a csgt extreme right with crimson sash on left shoulder.
• As for the painting, if the rest is correct I expect the sash is.

Very very strange.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

'Fraid not. SLI  seems to be not unique for at least a short while.

• The 1855 is not reversed .... csgt badge on right arm.
• The large group next below it also has a csgt extreme right with crimson sash on left shoulder.
• As for the painting, if the rest is correct I expect the sash is.

Very very strange.

 

 

I’m struggling a bit to find anything new about this matter, but willing to be convinced.  In 1855 the sergeant’s and officers sashes were both worn on the same shoulder for all infantry regiments - the left (the officers having just that year followed the sergeants as a result of receiving a new sword belt and carriage taking the place of their crimson waist sash and replacing their previous pouch belt).  Ergo, the circa 1855 79th depot image shows that left shoulder arrangement.   The sergeants then switched shoulders so that the sash was on the right when the new tunics and doublets were issued to replace the previous coatees towards the end of the Crimean War.  Following permission to be contrary the 13th Prince Albert’s simply did the opposite to whatever happened to be standard at the time thus wearing theirs on the same side as the officers.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

33 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m struggling a bit to find anything new about this matter, but willing to be convinced.  In 1855 the sergeant’s and officers sashes were both worn on the same shoulder for all infantry regiments - the left (the officers having just that year followed the sergeants as a result of receiving a new sword belt and carriage taking the place of their crimson waist sash and replacing their previous pouch belt).  Ergo, the circa 1855 79th depot image shows that left shoulder arrangement.   The sergeants then switched shoulders so that the sash was on the right when the new tunics and doublets were issued to replace the previous coatees towards the end of the Crimean War.  Following permission to be contrary the 13th Prince Albert’s simply did the opposite to whatever happened to be standard at the time thus wearing theirs on the same side as the officers.

The new matter is that the three pictures are neither reversed nor wrong despite the assertion.

Important for those less well versed to see a correction.

The Mods are very tolerant to allow the thread to go back to mid century, which I approve.

Anyway, 'nuff said.