Full Dress Distinctions for Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the Highland Infantry Regiments c1910-1914

[FROGSMILE]

Now for two musick majors and the battalion’s quarter-master-sergeant with silk sashes.  Although not quite close enough to make out the herringbone striping their thin fabric, and only very subtle lip, is apparent.

Edited 10 April by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And finally and importantly there seems to have been for a while at least a much finer quality thicker and finely ‘ribbed silk’ sash exclusive to just the Foot Guards.  This is the same type of ribbed silk that used to face the collars of dinner jackets as a fad/fashion and was even adopted by some regiments for their mess dress jacket collars around that same period**.  It must have been expensive.  It’s greater weightiness is palpable when you look at this photograph circa the late 1890s.  I’m wondering if it might’ve been a special sash for ‘State Dress’.

I also show a First Class SNCO wearing a ‘Second Tunic’ with silk sash.  Second Tunics were only issued to First Class and worn in place of white drill jackets worn by inferior ranks.  They were thus predominantly used for Drill Order.  Although of good quality cloth they had just a single twisted shoulder cord to secure the sash and neither gold lace nor badges of rank, in order to reduce the cost substantially (see colour image).  It was an unusual example where a garment alone was an indicator of status.  Notice that the sash is the herringbone type where the subtle striping can just about be discerned.  Also the thinness of the cloth revealed by how it sits over just one of the upper buttons.

** they are listed in the 1900 and 1904 dress regulations.

Edited 2 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Very well done Frogsmile.

Might I suggest the Mods move this excellent summary and clarification regarding sash colour, material, usage and exceptions into a suitably titled new thread ...... I suspect I set the hares running

[gordon92]

On 22/03/2024 at 10:05, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Mike, I will be interested to learn of anything more that you uncover.  Given the entire history of the 79th / QO Cameron Highlanders, the period that the battalion staff was without a red sash seems quite short, and only in relation to review order.  For the sake of posterity it’s important to make that clear.

Undress for SNCOs isn’t just white drill jacket and includes Inverness type scarlet frocks** (other than when worn in lieu of doublets in some stations), mess dress, and blue patrol jackets (sashes were not worn with these until modern times).

**these were worn without red sash as service dress marching/field day order until khaki drill became universally available.

Frogsmile..... I happened upon this photo of a Cameron Highlanders group dressed in drill order that is relevant to the prior discussion about retention of the sash in orders of dress other than full dress review order. Of particular interest is the Sergeant Major seated second row center on the officer's right. He does indeed wear the sash in drill order which was, I believe, part of your hypothesis. On the officer's left is probably the bandmaster although the insignia on his lower right arm is not entirely clear. The man the SM's right does not appear to be wearing any rank insignia.  Schoolmaster?  Thought you would be interested in this photo.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Frogsmile..... I happened upon this photo of a Cameron Highlanders group dressed in drill order that is relevant to the prior discussion about retention of the sash in orders of dress other than full dress review order. Of particular interest is the Sergeant Major seated second row center on the officer's right. He does indeed wear the sash in drill order which was, I believe, part of your hypothesis. On the officer's left is probably the bandmaster although the insignia on his lower right arm is not entirely clear. The man the SM's right does not appear to be wearing any rank insignia.  Schoolmaster?  Thought you would be interested in this photo.

Thank you for sight of this superb image, which I really appreciate.  It does indeed verify the dress of the Cameron’s sergeant major of battalion when in drill order.  I also agree that the schoolmaster is to his left and identified by no badge of rank, but instead so-called ‘engineer’ shoulder knots**.

** so-called because they were similar in design to the trefoil ended shoulder knots of the Corps of Royal Engineers, albeit with less strands of round cord making up the knot.

Edited 15 April by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for sight of this superb image, which I really appreciate.  It does indeed verify the dress of the Cameron’s sergeant major of battalion when in drill order.  I also agree that the schoolmaster is to his left and identified by no badge of rank, but instead so-called ‘engineer’ shoulder knots**.

** so-called because they were similar in design to the trefoil ended shoulder knots of the Corps of Royal Engineers, albeit with less strands of round cord making up the knot.

Yes, I can see the schoolmaster's shoulder knots. Thank you for pointing that out. It would have escaped my notice.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Yes, I can see the schoolmaster's shoulder knots. Thank you for pointing that out. It would have escaped my notice.

I think that they were officially meant for the more formal orders of uniform, but because there were no other badges of rank, or marks of status authorised for schoolmasters they could occasionally be seen on undress, including even khaki drill.  It’s been interesting to see your image.  Again, thank you.

Edited 15 April by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that they were officially meant for the more formal orders of uniform, but because there were no other badges of rank, or marks of status authorised for schoolmasters they could occasionally be seen on undress, including even khaki drill.  It’s been interesting to see your image.  Again, thank you.

My pleasure.

I would like to see photos of all the Highland regiment SMs in white drill jacket. In full dress all but the Cameron Highlanders dressed their SMs almost identically to officers. It would be interesting to see if the officer distinctions carried over to undress, i.e., sash over left shoulder, sword belt, etc. Unfortunately, I do not have those images in my inventory. Do you have any? Maybe @TullochArd has photos of the Seaforth SM in white drill jacket?

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, gordon92 said:

My pleasure.

I would like to see photos of all the Highland regiment SMs in white drill jacket. In full dress all but the Cameron Highlanders dressed their SMs almost identically to officers. It would be interesting to see if the officer distinctions carried over to undress, i.e., sash over left shoulder, sword belt, etc. Unfortunately, I do not have those images in my inventory. Do you have any? Maybe @TullochArd has photos of the Seaforth SM in white drill jacket?

Yes it would be interesting to see what variations there might be and I’ll try to find examples over the coming weeks.

[Muerrisch]

Copied for clarity:   I also agree that the schoolmaster is to his left and identified by no badge of rank, but instead so-called ‘engineer’ shoulder knots**.

 

I am on holiday until the weekend so away from regs.,  but I believe that schoolmasters were not entitled to the infantry sash, as belonging to their own corps. What date might the group be?

Armourers lost the sash when they became "attached" from their new corps.

Posted Wednesday. There are several aspects of this group that puzzle this Sassenach:

the headdress appears to be the Glengarry, why not the FSC given the post 1902 dating. Did Scots retain the Glen, if so, fair enough.

the shoulder decoration of the possible ?schoolmaster man? seems no different from the SM or the ?bandmaster?

If so, was the knot  just a feature of staff first class Highland drill order?

It is just about feasible that a schoolmaster, allowed membership of the Mess, was allowed the infantry sash, but to allow him full Highland Drill order is pushing belief rather hard. One imagines that it was not a cheap item.

My collection of CRs and PVCNs is going to get a hard look on Sunday and I will report back.

 

 

Edited 17 April by Muerrisch
added evidence to support case.

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Copied for clarity:   I also agree that the schoolmaster is to his left and identified by no badge of rank, but instead so-called ‘engineer’ shoulder knots**.

 

I am on holiday until the weekend so away from regs.,  but I believe that schoolmasters were not entitled to the infantry sash, as belonging to their own corps. What date might the group be?

Armourers lost the sash when they became "attached" from their new corps.

 

 

As the crown on the SM's right sleeve looks to be a KC, it would be post 1902.  Not much else in the image to pin it down further.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Copied for clarity:   I also agree that the schoolmaster is to his left and identified by no badge of rank, but instead so-called ‘engineer’ shoulder knots**.

 

I am on holiday until the weekend so away from regs.,  but I believe that schoolmasters were not entitled to the infantry sash, as belonging to their own corps. What date might the group be?

Armourers lost the sash when they became "attached" from their new corps.

 

 

I agree with your comment, in principle, but as you know infantry battalions had a degree of autonomy under their commanding officer and I suppose that if they were providing schooling in a single unit station there might be a more traditional/historical attitude to any attached staff at battalion headquarters level.  It will be interesting to see what more might be learned about the unit. 

Edited 16 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Back to the Highland white drill jacket group. It would be nice to conclude, using Occam's Razor, that the mystery man is a schoolmaster. After a lot of thought and a lot of research, I regret that he has to remain a mystery in my mind. My reasoning:

• Bandmasters' badge not to be worn with white drill CR 1898 et seq. Man might therefore be bandmaster, who was allowed sash.
• Schoolmasters not entitled to sash CR 1881 et seq. Only relevant clothing was dress frock-coat dark blue/black, frock ditto. Also KD.
• Three soldiers all with shoulder cords which look identical. one is SM.
• schoolmasters were not of the unit, nor even attached;  they were posted to locations. 

As an aside, CRs of the relevant late Victoria/Edward/George period are unhelpfully thin on the subject of badges for wear on other than full dress. In particular they appear to tend to allowing rank and skill at arms only: appointments listed for special omission on "white cotton clothing" are all band, and all sergeant -instructors [sic].  Did they mean to include the white drill order? If so, we have a prime candidate for the musketry instructor in the group.

I will ask Toby Brayley to search his massive archive because I have always tried to avoid Highland matters as being far too difficult. As for a Highland schoolmaster ...........

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Back to the Highland white drill jacket group. It would be nice to conclude, using Occam's Razor, that the mystery man is a schoolmaster. After a lot of thought and a lot of research, I regret that he has to remain a mystery in my mind. My reasoning:

• Bandmasters' badge not to be worn with white drill CR 1898 et seq. Man might therefore be bandmaster, who was allowed sash.
• Schoolmasters not entitled to sash CR 1881 et seq. Only relevant clothing was dress frock-coat dark blue/black, frock ditto. Also KD.
• Three soldiers all with shoulder cords which look identical. one is SM.
• schoolmasters were not of the unit, nor even attached;  they were posted to locations. 

As an aside, CRs of the relevant late Victoria/Edward/George period are unhelpfully thin on the subject of badges for wear on other than full dress. In particular they appear to tend to allowing rank and skill at arms only: appointments listed for special omission on "white cotton clothing" are all band, and all sergeant -instructors [sic].  Did they mean to include the white drill order? If so, we have a prime candidate for the musketry instructor in the group.

I will ask Toby Brayley to search his massive archive because I have always tried to avoid Highland matters as being far too difficult. As for a Highland schoolmaster ...........

You make some very logical points and after scrutinising the photo again I can see that I made an error with my agreement that the individual sat on the right side of the sergeant major (SM) of battalion is a schoolmaster, and he is in fact actually a quarter-master-sergeant.  What I thought at first glance was an engineer [type] shoulder knot is instead a standard ‘first class’ pattern twisted bullion shoulder cord, the same as that worn by the SM.  He also has a bullion 4-bar chevron on his right lower sleeve that is unhelpfully, partially obscured by the ‘Parker Gifts’ overlay on the photo.  I am unclear if he’s the (R)QMS, or the ORQMS, as I cannot make out whether there’s a star device above his 4-bar chevron.  The individual to the left of the SM is the Adjutant, with officer style sash and thick bullion shoulder cords on which two rank stars can be discerned.

I don’t know whether Garrison Schoolmasters at single (Highland) Battalion stations might have had special dispensation to wear white drill jackets, but in hindsight it seems unlikely I concur, and I should have realised that red sashes, too, would be unauthorised for a completely non combatant appointment.  That said, in an interesting bit of research a few years ago, I learned that, when first established, the Army Pay Corps and separately the Corps of Army Staff Clerks**, were authorised for red sashes in their own right.  When this ceased I do not know.

** later absorbed by the Army Service Corps, and then in the early 1960s by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps (and now with the Adjutant Generals Corps). 

Edited 26 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

That QMS is a good spot!  If the spirit of the rules were to be obeyed the PTI sergeant would not be wearing the crossed swords either. Perhaps a rather relaxed attitude by the adjt and the SM has allowed dress to be a little eccentric.

 

Tangentially, what material was the drill jacket made from? I always assumed wool but can find no reference.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

That QMS is a good spot!  If the spirit of the rules were to be obeyed the PTI sergeant would not be wearing the crossed swords either. Perhaps a rather relaxed attitude by the adjt and the SM has allowed dress to be a little eccentric.

 

Tangentially, what material was the drill jacket made from? I always assumed wool but can find no reference.

I believe that the forbidding of skill-at-arms badges did not include those appointments where the badge was a part of the rank and appointment identification.  For example the Musketry instructor kept his crossed rifles, but a marksman, or prize winner did not / should not (although in this case clearly not observed).

I’m positive that the drill jackets were woollen, but cannot point to a source at the moment.  As an aside I recently saw published army nomenclature where the term ‘shell jacket’ is used**, suggesting that ‘drill jacket’ was a more regimental description.

** Captain M Petrie, 14th Regiment, staff officer in Topographical Department and author of “Infantry Equipments” - War Office publication 1866. 

Edited 25 April by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Back to the Highland white drill jacket group. It would be nice to conclude, using Occam's Razor, that the mystery man is a schoolmaster. After a lot of thought and a lot of research, I regret that he has to remain a mystery in my mind. My reasoning:

• Bandmasters' badge not to be worn with white drill CR 1898 et seq. Man might therefore be bandmaster, who was allowed sash.
• Schoolmasters not entitled to sash CR 1881 et seq. Only relevant clothing was dress frock-coat dark blue/black, frock ditto. Also KD.
• Three soldiers all with shoulder cords which look identical. one is SM.
• schoolmasters were not of the unit, nor even attached;  they were posted to locations. 

As an aside, CRs of the relevant late Victoria/Edward/George period are unhelpfully thin on the subject of badges for wear on other than full dress. In particular they appear to tend to allowing rank and skill at arms only: appointments listed for special omission on "white cotton clothing" are all band, and all sergeant -instructors [sic].  Did they mean to include the white drill order? If so, we have a prime candidate for the musketry instructor in the group.

I will ask Toby Brayley to search his massive archive because I have always tried to avoid Highland matters as being far too difficult. As for a Highland schoolmaster ...........

 

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

You make some very logical points and after scrutinising the photo again I can see that I made an error with my agreement that the individual sat on the right side of the sergeant major (SM) of battalion is a schoolmaster, and he is in fact actually a quarter-master-sergeant.  What I thought at first glance was an engineer [type] shoulder knot is instead a standard ‘first class’ pattern twisted bullion shoulder cord, the same as that worn by the SM.  He also has a bullion 4-bar chevron on his right lower sleeve that is unhelpfully, partially obscured by the ‘Parker Gifts’ overlay on the photo.  I am unclear if he’s the RQMS, or the ORQMS, as I cannot make out whether there’s a star device above his 4-bar chevron.  The individual to the left of the SM is the Adjutant, with officer style sash and thick bullion shoulder cords on which two rank stars can be discerned.

I don’t know whether Garrison Schoolmasters at single (Highland) Battalion stations might have had special dispensation to wear white drill jackets, but in hindsight it seems unlikely I concur, and I should have realised that red sashes, too, would be unauthorised for a completely non combatant appointment.  That said, in an interesting bit of research a few years ago, I learned that, when first established, the Army Pay Corps and separately the Corps of Army Staff Clerks**, were authorised for red sashes in their own right.  When this ceased I do not know.

** later absorbed by the Army Service Corps, and then in the early 1960s by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps (and now with the Adjutant Generals Corps). 

 

4 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

That QMS is a good spot!  If the spirit of the rules were to be obeyed the PTI sergeant would not be wearing the crossed swords either. Perhaps a rather relaxed attitude by the adjt and the SM has allowed dress to be a little eccentric.

 

Tangentially, what material was the drill jacket made from? I always assumed wool but can find no reference.

Many thanks to both of you for the extensive research and brilliant insights on the Cameron white drill jacket photo. 

What do you think about the man seated on the officer's left? He clearly has a staff appointment as his white jacket is officer style with the pointed front at the base of the button seam. There appears to be a badge of two parts on the lower right arm. I don't think it is a photographic imperfection. I would surmise that he is the (R)QMS.

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, gordon92 said:

 

 

Many thanks to both of you for the extensive research and brilliant insights on the Cameron white drill jacket photo. 

What do you think about the man seated on the officer's left? He clearly has a staff appointment as his white jacket is officer style with the pointed front at the base of the button seam. There appears to be a badge of two parts on the lower right arm. I don't think it is a photographic imperfection. I would surmise that he is the (R)QMS.

Squinting at length I think it certainly must be a 4-bar chevron given it’s position and size, but I’m not sure what the badge that appears to be above is.  Did the battalion have a Sergeant Drummer (drum major) at the time?  If so that might fit as the badge seems larger to my eyes than the small star of a (R)QMS.  He would’ve worn first class dress too.  If he’s not the ‘drummie’ then (R)QMS would have to be the next most likely I agree.

[Muerrisch]

It is a strange photo, and we have not asked "what was it for, what is the commonality in the group other than regiment and drill order?

As for the 4 chevron soldier, I would go for [R]QMS if pressed as being in a senior position. But even "seniority" is strange, in that the officer is not central.

The R & F in the front have a good few GCBs ........ are they batmen for the staff sergeants [not an official arrangement but we know that the staff, particularly the SM, could privately employ a soldier to master the bull aspects of life].

Many more questions than answers, it brings to mind angels dancing on a pinhead.

[gordon92]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Squinting at length I think it certainly must be a 4-bar chevron given it’s position and size, but I’m not sure what the badge that appears to be above is.  Did the battalion have a Sergeant Drummer (drum major) at the time?  If so that might fit as the badge seems larger to my eyes than the small star of a (R)QMS.  He would’ve worn first class dress too.  If he’s not the ‘drummie’ then (R)QMS would have to be the next most likely I agree.

 

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

It is a strange photo, and we have not asked "what was it for, what is the commonality in the group other than regiment and drill order?

As for the 4 chevron soldier, I would go for [R]QMS if pressed as being in a senior position. But even "seniority" is strange, in that the officer is not central.

The R & F in the front have a good few GCBs ........ are they batmen for the staff sergeants [not an official arrangement but we know that the staff, particularly the SM, could privately employ a soldier to master the bull aspects of life].

Many more questions than answers, it brings to mind angels dancing on a pinhead.

Below is the 1910 photo of 1st Cameron sergeants in full dress that I posted earlier in the thread and now re-posted again for convenience.

I've correlated the senior members of the white drill jacket photo with those in the full dress photo largely by matching up mustaches. The four chevron man on the far right of the white jacket photo that we've just been talking about could easily be Sergeant Drummer George Scotland seated 2nd from right in the full dress photo; he is definitely not (R)QMS Edwin Wilkins seated 3rd from left in the full dress photo. The officer in white jacket, who Frogsmile thinks is the Adjutant, does seem to be Adjt/Lt. GJ Scovell seated 5th from right in full dress photo. The SM in white jacket does look like SM AJ MacDonald seated 4th from left in full dress. The other four chevron man, to the SM's right in white jacket photo, does not appear to match with (OR)QMS RC Williams seated 3rd from right in full dress photo.

Thanks again for your continuing thoughts.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

 

Below is the 1910 photo of 1st Cameron sergeants in full dress that I posted earlier in the thread and now re-posted again for convenience.

I've correlated the senior members of the white drill jacket photo with those in the full dress photo largely by matching up mustaches. The four chevron man on the far right of the white jacket photo that we've just been talking about could easily be Sergeant Drummer George Scotland seated 2nd from right in the full dress photo; he is definitely not (R)QMS Edwin Wilkins seated 3rd from left in the full dress photo. The officer in white jacket, who Frogsmile thinks is the Adjutant, does seem to be Adjt/Lt. GJ Scovell seated 5th from right in full dress photo. The SM in white jacket does look like SM AJ MacDonald seated 4th from left in full dress. The other four chevron man, to the SM's right in white jacket photo, does not appear to match with (OR)QMS RC Williams seated 3rd from right in full dress photo.

Thanks again for your continuing thoughts.

I agree 100% with your analysis.

It seems to me that the grouping in the white jackets suggest perhaps a battalion headquarters group, with the orderly room staff under the adjutant, plus the other personnel supporting the overall staff effort.  The orderly room clerk was a rank ranged position by then and could be the colour sergeant at rear.  Our (R)QMS might be the man adjacent to the SM, a natural position for him to be.  There’s also the sergeant i/c Gymnasium and maybe the other SNCOs present at rear could be the signals sergeant, machine gun sergeant, pioneer sergeant, master tailor, and master shoemaker.  The rank and file probably a mix of batmen and clerks.  Some of the appointments were strictly the quartermaster’s, but they were all, collectively, battalion staff.

Edited 26 April by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Yes, has to be. The orderly room clerk was rank-ranged from at least 1848, and by the time of the group photo he had a number two of sergeant or corporal  rank.

Well, it kept us amused for a few days!

[Muerrisch]

Toby Brayley has sent me a full brief from his superb collection on the drill jackets complete with photos of an example he owns.

I will post the lot within a few days.

[gordon92]

13 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Toby Brayley has sent me a full brief from his superb collection on the drill jackets complete with photos of an example he owns.

I will post the lot within a few days.

That sounds great. Look forward to seeing the pics.

Below is photo of the two white drill jackets in my collection. On left is Cpl Charles Artur Irvine (1856-1946) 1st Bn Seaforth Highlanders. His medal ribands are Afghan War, Kabul to Kandahar, and Egypt 1882. He wears a leather edged glengarry of Great War vintage; at that date his glengarry should have been solid dark blue, a carryover from the 72nd. 1st Bn switched to diced glengarries around 1886. On the right is 2nd Lt. Archibald Smith-Sligo, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. Commissioned in Dec 1913, he went to France 14th August with the 1st Bn and was KIA 14th Sept on the Aisne.

[FROGSMILE]

I didn’t know you wanted to see examples, as I have posted them several times before.  As I understand it Gordon92 is looking for something specific and defined, and that is a comparison of the sergeants major of battalion of those regiments that wore white drill order:

1.  Royal Highlanders (Black Watch).

2.  Seaforth Highlanders.

3.  Gordon Highlanders.

4.  Queen’s Own (Cameron) Highlanders.

5.  Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

6.  Highland Light Infantry.

There seem to have been seven slightly different variants as far as I’ve been able to observe.

Three for Highland regiments; rank and file, sergeant’s, and first [class] quality.

Bandsman’s pattern in the Seaforth Highlanders.

Three for Foot Guards; rank and file, sergeant’s, and first [class] quality.

Chevrons varied over the years.  For the longest period full sergeants and above had gold lace and bullion badges of rank.

Highland rank and file had red worsted on white backing, but at one point previously used very dark blue on white backing.

The Foot Guards rank and file initially also favoured dark blue on white backing, but later seem to have changed to white on a red felt backing.

I’m not sure when the various changes took place and haven’t yet looked to see if that is outlined in Major Dawnay’s seminal study of rank badges.

The first quality jacket seems to have had two inset pockets on the lower front, gold bullion shoulder cords, and mitred cuffs.  Sergeants had a better quality cloth jacket.  Rank and file had plain white worsted twisted shoulder cords and simple jackets without pockets.

Edited 27 April by FROGSMILE