Full Dress Distinctions for Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the Highland Infantry Regiments c1910-1914

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

The new matter is that the three pictures are neither reversed nor wrong despite the assertion.

Important for those less well versed to see a correction.

The Mods are very tolerant to allow the thread to go back to mid century, which I approve.

Anyway, 'nuff said.

I had only considered that there was the possibility of an error because of the 1938 painting and following your initial comment.  It wasn’t something I dwelled on to much given the time period, as you have pointed out.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Indeed, I was merely listing the undress in it’s entirety from a regimental perspective.  White drill jacket on the home establishment.  Scarlet serge and KD in India, and in the Mediterranean both doublet and serge were issued until replaced by drab SD from 1902, including in Egypt.  In all of those it seems that only review order with its full shoulder plaid excluded the red sash.

NB.  You do need to stipulate Review Order in your footnote rather than just full dress Mike, because that is the primary aspect.  Review Order could be and was created in some stations by dressing up (adding lace etc) scarlet serge and wearing it with plaids.

I save the image to my iPhone as a photo.  Then go to Edit and use the icons for manipulation to turn the image to its appropriate orientation.  It’s uncomplicated and takes a few seconds.  You then upload it in its corrected orientation.

What you say about scarlet serge is correct.  Below is photo (not a very good one) of the Drum Major of the 2nd Gordons in scarlet serge leading his contingent at the Delhi Durbar.

It is also noteworthy that Review Order can be constituted in khaki drill uniforms when ordered per Dress Regulations 1911.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

What you say about scarlet serge is correct.  Below is photo (not a very good one) of the Drum Major of the 2nd Gordons in scarlet serge leading his contingent at the Delhi Durbar.

It is also noteworthy that Review Order can be constituted in khaki drill uniforms when ordered per Dress Regulations 1911.

Thank you for the extra images Mike, they confirm my understanding 100%.  The use of serge became standard in India for all infantry battalions.

Edited 22 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for the extra images Mike, they confirm my understanding 100%.  The use of serge became standard in India for all infantry battalions.

Just discernible to the left of the column (viewer's right) in the Delhi Durbar image is a Gordon officer in full dress,  At least in the Highland regiments, it was customary for officers to take full dress with them when stationed abroad.  I can't speak for the other infantry regiments on that point.  Up through the very early 1900s I've seen photos of Highland officers in scarlet serge frock, but that appears to have ceased about 1902 or shortly thereafter.

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/03/2024 at 00:30, gordon92 said:

Just discernible to the left of the column (viewer's right) in the Delhi Durbar image is a Gordon officer in full dress,  At least in the Highland regiments, it was customary for officers to take full dress with them when stationed abroad.  I can't speak for the other infantry regiments on that point.  Up through the very early 1900s I've seen photos of Highland officers in scarlet serge frock, but that appears to have ceased about 1902 or shortly thereafter.

This now strays off piste in relation to the subject of the thread and red sashes for battalion staff, but as you’ve raised it Mike I’ll respond.  There’s nothing unusual about officers taking full dress doublets/tunics to India, and scarlet serge wasn’t routinely used by them for review order even though it was for the men.

The use of full dress was common across the Indian Establishment (IE) for British officers of native and imperial units and had been for a long time (see enclosed IE regulations). Not only was it seen in photos of ceremonial, but commonly also for the marriages of British officers in India, often at hill stations during the cold season.

You would indeed have seen scarlet serge for officers before 1902 because alongside khaki drill it was an undress uniform that could be used in the field there in the cold season.  It was replaced after 1902 by drab service dress, so patently there was no requirement for scarlet serge anymore.  However blue serge (i.e. patrols) remained popular.

Officers uniform was a different dynamic anyway to publicly funded soldiers uniform because it had to be paid for privately by the individual officers concerned.  They had a certain amount more leeway and lightweight and tropical weight versions became increasingly popular so that an officer heading to India for potentially as long as two decades of regimental duty would often arrange for his uniform to be modified internally to have less of the heavy construction and quilting etc that was common for the home establishment with its more temperate climate.

The cost of uniforms and equipment to officers became increasingly a bone of contention climaxing especially during the Boer War, but then extending into the decade that followed as efforts were made to reduce decorative lace and thus the concomitant cost.  https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1903-06-11/debates/f89d84d7-323e-4cb4-bb70-9ab1ef4a2cab/OfficersUniforms

It was an enduring theme and similar outbursts of indignation occurred during and after WW1 and WW2.  It’s only recently that the bespoke principles that underpinned officers outfitting (not to mention the foundations of British tailoring in Savile Row) were ended, or at the very least much diminished (just mess dress).

Edited 24 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

This now strays off piste in relation to the subject of the thread and red sashes for battalion staff, but as you’ve raised it Mike I’ll respond.  There’s nothing unusual about officers taking full dress doublets/tunics to India, and scarlet serge wasn’t routinely used by them for review order even though it was for the men.

The use of full dress was common across the Indian Establishment (IE) for British officers of native and imperial units and had been for a long time (see enclosed IE regulations). Not only was it seen in photos of ceremonial, but commonly also for the marriages of British officers in India, often at hill stations during the cold season.

You would indeed have seen scarlet serge for officers before 1902 because alongside khaki drill it was an undress uniform that could be used in the field there in the cold season.  It was replaced after 1902 by drab service dress, so patently there was no requirement for scarlet serge anymore.  However blue serge (i.e. patrols) remained popular.

Officers uniform was a different dynamic anyway to publicly funded soldiers uniform because it had to be paid for privately by the individual officers concerned.  They had a certain amount more leeway and lightweight and tropical weight versions became increasingly popular so that an officer heading to India for potentially as long as two decades of regimental duty would often arrange for his uniform to be modified internally to have less of the heavy construction and quilting etc that was common for the home establishment with its more temperate climate.

The cost of uniforms and equipment to officers became increasingly a bone of contention climaxing especially during the Boer War, but then extending into the decade that followed as efforts were made to reduce decorative lace and thus the concomitant cost.  https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1903-06-11/debates/f89d84d7-323e-4cb4-bb70-9ab1ef4a2cab/OfficersUniforms

It was an enduring theme and similar outbursts of indignation occurred during and after WW1 and WW2.  It’s only recently that the bespoke principles that underpinned officers outfitting (not to mention the foundations of British tailoring in Savile Row) were ended, or at the very least much diminished (just mess dress).

Many thanks, Frogsmile, for the tome on full dress and scarlet serge at overseas stations.  It sums up things nicely and is completely in accord with my understanding.  The excerpts from the Indian regulations are helpful, and I previously had no access to these documents.

The levee order photo of the Black Watch officer was interesting. He is a field officer evidenced by the double lines of lace on his gauntlet cuffs (discontinued after 1902), the scarf plaid, and that his sword is suspended from slings attached to the dirk belt instead of a shoulder belt. The Cameron Highlanders used the scarf plaid in levee order for officers of all ranks.  I am not sure about levee dress for field officers of the Seaforth, Gordons, and Argylls. I will need to look into that.

Regarding the wearing of the sash by staff sergeants of the Cameron Highlanders in undress, I am afraid that my perusal of the 79th News issues from 1905-06 that are in my possession was unproductive. So, for now, the sash matter remains as a highly likely hypothesis but without hard photographic evidence.

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Many thanks, Frogsmile, for the tome on full dress and scarlet serge at overseas stations.  It sums up things nicely and is completely in accord with my understanding.  The excerpts from the Indian regulations are helpful, and I previously had no access to these documents.

The levee order photo of the Black Watch officer was interesting. He is a field officer evidenced by the double lines of lace on his gauntlet cuffs (discontinued after 1902), the scarf plaid, and that his sword is suspended from slings attached to the dirk belt instead of a shoulder belt. The Cameron Highlanders used the scarf plaid in levee order for officers of all ranks.  I am not sure about levee dress for field officers of the Seaforth, Gordons, and Argylls. I will need to look into that.

Regarding the wearing of the sash by staff sergeants of the Cameron Highlanders in undress, I am afraid that my perusal of the 79th News issues from 1905-06 that are in my possession was unproductive. So, for now, the sash matter remains as a highly likely hypothesis but without hard photographic evidence.

There have been numerous publications on Scottish military uniforms as devised by the British Army’s hierarchy (an important caveat) with few taking the trouble to go into the minutiae that gives the fullest picture.  My own favourite (none are perfect) is that by Robert Wilkinson Latham that sadly is long out of print, although I have many others.  I’m not a fanatical fan of all the Highlanders dress shenanigans, but think it important that the details are recorded and retained accurately for posterity and your painstaking work with its tables is genuinely very useful and I second Maureen’s suggestion that you consider uploading it to the online archive.  I imagine but do not know for sure that it might be possible to update it if and when new information is uncovered.

Since reading your work, and discovering the period when the 79th / Queen’s Own (Cameron) Highlanders headquarters battalion staff unilaterally abandoned the sergeants red sash, I’ve been scouring my references and images to try and find out two things:

1.  First when the practice commenced.  It almost certainly ended with the outbreak of WW1 as only the band and pipes and drums retained any form of full dress, and images such as that of the pipe major in 1938, seem to show a red sash in use again.

2.  Second to get to the bottom of how the wearing of sergeants sashes evolved in the Highlanders (specifically) to move between right and left shoulders.

To aid me I’ve been able to find two photos that bear out the peculiar practice by the Cameron’s, as explained by your piece.  The first one apparently dates to 1910 in India and shows a small group of SNCOs headed by the QMS when the 2nd Battalion was at Bangalore.  Apparently the occasion was some kind of meeting of Scottish battalions in India at that time, but I don’t know how accurate that is.  Turning to dress, the group are wearing scarlet serge Inverness frocks dressed up as review order, but neither with full dress headdress (which would have been white Wolseley helmets) nor bearing arms.  The key aspect is that sure enough the QMS, unlike the others, including two who appear to be also SNCOs rated as battalion staff sergeants (i.e. with full shoulder plaid), is without a red sash.  This is helpful and definitive evidence for the period immediately before WW1.

Turning to the second photo, I believe it is evidentially the most compelling in identifying when the practice of not wearing a red sash began for the staff sergeants.  In an earlier photo that I posted of the circa 1855 depot staff of the 79th, the Sergeant Major was clearly wearing a red sash with no shoulder plaid and both he and the Quarter-Master-Sergeant are wearing 4-bar chevrons point down on the upper arm.  The second photo I showed in the same post upthread showed battalion NCOs and the Sergeant Major circa 1864, and in that image he is clearly wearing a sash with a thin doublet of some kind and a 4-bar chevron rank with crown over point up on the lower arm.  There is no shoulder plaid, and he appears to be in undress. 

However, this latest photo shows the battalion staff of the 79th in Review Order at Roorkee in Bengal circa 1869, a little over 10-years after the depot photo.  In it the staff give us lots of visual evidence of change.  First of all they’re wearing the doublets that arose from a modification of the post Crimea 1855 double breasted type.  Promulgated in 1856, they were ordered to be in place by 1st April 1857, the next financial year, almost certainly so that the cost of converting the double breasted garments of the entire infantry to single breasted (essentially removing a panel of cloth and then making good) could be captured.  Secondly, they are all wearing the four bar chevrons (but point uppermost) on the lower arm as ordered for all First Class Staff Sergeants in 1862**.  None of them are wearing sergeants sashes.

Notwithstanding, the apparent date of the photo, it seems that the battalion had not yet received both of the circular orders issued in 1868 and 1869 respectively, the first to convert the slashed cuff of their doublets to a gauntlet type, and the second that only the Sergeant Major and the Quarter-Master-Sergeant were to wear their ranks below the elbow.  As all the others in the photo also have chevrons on the lower arm, and they are point up, this latter order seems to have been badly misinterpreted.  Nevertheless, when considered in the round, all of this seems to narrow down that the shoulder plaid and diagonal sword belt almost certainly began to accompany the new pattern doublet of 1857, but sometime between 1864 and 1869.  One aspect that really puzzled me in this photo is that there appears to be two different tartan setts, one noticeably darker than the other.  I don’t know if this relates to the music majors being different, or two qualities of weave.  All theories welcome?

Finally is the matter of the sergeants sash.  Contemporary photos of the 79th in India and the 78th in Canada (see McCord Museum photos) show clearly that the adoption of shoulder plaid and the wearing of cross belts as a carriage for the broadsword by staff sergeants made the wearing of sashes problematic.  The 78th got around this by having their staff sergeants only switch the sash to the same side as the officers, whereas the inferior SNCO ranks, Colour Sergeant and below, wore their sashes on the opposing side.  Ergo within one regiment’s SNCOs you had sashes worn on both shoulders depending upon rank and appointment.  It was not like in the non-Scottish regiments, with the officers sash one way, and the SNCOs the opposite way.  The 79th uniquely got around this potential lack of uniformity by ceasing to have their staff sergeants wear a sash at all when in review order due to the conflict with shoulder plaid and sword cross belt.

Conclusion:  It seems to me that the 79th headquarters battalion staff sergeants ceased wearing the red sash when shoulder plaids began to be issued with the new pattern doublet of 1857, but at some point between 1864 and 1869.  They continued that practice until full dress ceased to be issued by the war office in 1914.  Given that shoulder plaids were not worn with white drill order, or blue serge patrol patrol jackets, it seems unconscionable that they would not have worn sashes in those forms of dress.  After 1922 that would have included drab service dress.

** in a regiment of Highlanders this would have included the Sergeant Major, the Quarter-Master-Sergeant, the Orderly-Room-Clerk, the Sergeant Instructor of Musketry, the Pipe-Major, the Drum-Major, the Band Sergeant and, possibly, the Staff-Armourer-Sergeant (depending on his length of service). All of these men wore a 4-bar chevron at that time.

NB.  The printed extracts below are from Major N P Dawnay’s The Badges of Warrant and Non-Commissioned Rank in the British Army.

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

A small caveat regarding colour sergeants as such.  They were expressly excluded from staff by a succession of published orders. It is useful in the six tables to have him as comparator.

It was of course possible in several staff appointments to achieve colour sergeant rank, possibly better pay, and with a  different badge from the rifle company man. This latter was armed and clothed with rifle and bayonet, sergeant quality clothing and the worsted crimson sash.

 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

A small caveat regarding colour sergeants as such.  They were expressly excluded from staff by a succession of published orders. It is useful in the six tables to have him as comparator.

It was of course possible in several staff appointments to achieve colour sergeant rank, possibly better pay, and with a  different badge from the rifle company man. This latter was armed and clothed with rifle and bayonet, sergeant quality clothing and the worsted crimson sash.

 

I don’t think I referrred to Colour Sergeants specifically other than in relation to the Dawnay extracts, but that said and with regard to your comment the changing of the appointment title from Sergeant Instructor of Musketry to Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry between 1902 and 1914, but remaining on the battalion staff and retaining his first class clothing seems to be an example in case.

Edited 24 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

29 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t think I referrred to Colour Sergeants specifically other than in relation to the Dawnay extracts, but that said and with regard to your comment the changing of the appointment title from Sergeant Instructor of Musketry to Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry between 1902 and 1914, but remaining on the battalion staff and retaining his first class clothing seems to be an example in case.

AO 104/1904 is the reference.

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

AO 104/1904 is the reference.

I know that you mean well and I’ve been interested in that specific detail in a previous thread that you’ve started or contributed to (possibly more than one), but as it wasn’t relevant to the Cameron’s and their battalion staff sash, etc. I didn’t think it useful to go back down that particular rabbit hole again.  It’s all good stuff, but I’m trying to stick to the subject at hand and not digress, else it can be confusing for drop-in readers perhaps trying to follow the subject from a standing start.

Edited 24 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Yes I merely refined your between 1902 and 1914 for your benefit.

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Yes I merely refined your between 1902 and 1914 for your benefit.

As I said, I know that specific detail is readily accessible in the forum.  It wasn’t necessary or relevant to the thread.

Edited 24 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

As I said, I know that specific detail is readily accessible in the forum.  It wasn’t necessary or relevant to the thread.

I cannot find AO 104/1904 anywhere else on the forum. Perhaps you would be so kind as to steer me and others to it?. I seem only have the reference and would like to read it.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I cannot find AO 104/1904 anywhere else on the forum. Perhaps you would be so kind as to steer me and others to it?. I seem only have the reference and would like to read it.

I’ve seen you post the AO reference previously not that long ago, and as you posted it, and you want it, you can find it.  

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve seen you post the AO reference previously not that long ago, and as you posted it, and you want it, you can find it.  

Better to quote a reference [if known] than a broad time spectrum of a dozen years.

[gordon92]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There have been numerous publications on Scottish military uniforms as devised by the British Army’s hierarchy (an important caveat) with few taking the trouble to go into the minutiae that gives the fullest picture.  My own favourite (none are perfect) is that by Robert Wilkinson Latham that sadly is long out of print, although I have many others.  I’m not a fanatical fan of all the Highlanders dress shenanigans, but think it important that the details are recorded and retained accurately for posterity and your painstaking work with its tables is genuinely very useful and I second Maureen’s suggestion that you consider uploading it to the online archive.  I imagine but do not know for sure that it might be possible to update it if and when new information is uncovered.

Since reading your work, and discovering the period when the 79th / Queen’s Own (Cameron) Highlanders headquarters battalion staff unilaterally abandoned the sergeants red sash, I’ve been scouring my references and images to try and find out two things:

1.  First when the practice commenced.  It almost certainly ended with the outbreak of WW1 as only the band and pipes and drums retained any form of full dress, and images such as that of the pipe major in 1938, seem to show a red sash in use again.

2.  Second to get to the bottom of how the wearing of sergeants sashes evolved in the Highlanders (specifically) to move between shoulders.

To aid me I’ve been able to find two photos that bear out the peculiar practice by the Cameron’s, as explained by your piece.  The first one apparently dates to 1910 in India and shows a small group of SNCOs headed by the QMS when the 2nd Battalion was at Bangalore.  Apparently the occasion was some kind of meeting of Scottish battalions in India at that time, but I don’t know how accurate that is.  Turning to dress, the group are wearing scarlet serge Inverness frocks dressed up as review order, but neither with full dress headdress (which would have been white Wolseley helmets) nor bearing arms.  The key aspect is that sure enough the QMS, unlike the others, including two who appear to be also SNCOs rated as battalion staff sergeants (i.e. with full shoulder plaid), is without a red sash.  This is helpful and definitive evidence for the period immediately before WW1.

Turning to the second photo, I believe it is evidentially the most compelling in identifying when the practice of not wearing a red sash began for the staff sergeants.  In an earlier photo that I posted of the circa 1855 depot staff of the 79th, the Sergeant Major was clearly wearing a red sash with no shoulder plaid and both he and the Quarter-Master-Sergeant are wearing 4-bar chevrons point down on the upper arm.  The second photo I showed in the same post upthread showed battalion NCOs and the Sergeant Major circa 1864, and in that image he is clearly wearing a sash with a thin doublet of some kind and a 4-bar chevron rank with crown over point up on the lower arm.  There is no shoulder plaid, and he appears to be in undress. 

However, this latest photo shows the battalion staff of the 79th in Review Order at Roorkee in Bengal circa 1869, a little over 10-years after the depot photo.  In it the staff give us lots of visual evidence of change.  First of all they’re wearing the doublets that arose from a modification of the post Crimea 1855 double breasted type.  Promulgated in 1856, they were ordered to be in place by 1st April 1857, the next financial year, almost certainly so that the cost of converting the double breasted garments of the entire infantry to single breasted (essentially removing a panel of cloth and then making good) could be captured.  Secondly, they are all wearing the four bar chevrons (but point uppermost) on the lower arm as ordered for all First Class Staff Sergeants in 1862**.  None of them are wearing sergeants sashes.

Notwithstanding, the apparent date of the photo, it seems that the battalion had not yet received both of the circular orders issued in 1868 and 1869 respectively, the first to convert the slashed cuff of their doublets to a gauntlet type, and the second that only the Sergeant Major and the Quarter-Master-Sergeant were to wear their ranks below the elbow.  As all the others in the photo also have chevrons on the lower arm, and they are point up, this latter order seems to have been badly misinterpreted.  Nevertheless, when considered in the round, all of this seems to narrow down that the shoulder plaid and diagonal sword belt almost certainly began to accompany the new pattern doublet of 1857, but sometime between 1864 and 1869.  One aspect that really puzzled me in this photo is that there appears to be two different tartan setts, one noticeably darker than the other.  I don’t know if this relates to the music majors being different, or two qualities of weave.  All theories welcome?

Finally is the matter of the sergeants sash.  Contemporary photos of the 79th in India and the 78th in Canada (see McCord Museum photos) show clearly that the adoption of shoulder plaid and the wearing of cross belts as a carriage for the broadsword by staff sergeants made the wearing of sashes problematic.  The 78th got around this by having their staff sergeants only switch the sash to the same side as the officers, whereas the inferior SNCO ranks, Colour Sergeant and below, wore their sashes on the opposing side.  Ergo within one regiment’s SNCOs you had sashes worn on both shoulders depending upon rank and appointment.  It was not like in the non-Scottish regiments, with the officers sash one way, and the SNCOs the opposite way.  The 79th uniquely got around this potential lack of uniformity by ceasing to have their staff sergeants wear a sash at all when in review order due to the conflict with shoulder plaid and sword cross belt.

Conclusion:  It seems to me that the 79th headquarters battalion staff sergeants ceased wearing the red sash when shoulder plaids began to be issued with the new pattern doublet of 1857, but at some point between 1864 and 1869.  They continued that practice until full dress ceased to be issued by the war office in 1914.  Given that shoulder plaids were not worn with white drill order, or blue serge patrol patrol jackets, it seems unconscionable that they would not have worn sashes in those forms of dress.  After 1922 that would have included drab service dress.

** in a regiment of Highlanders this would have included the Sergeant Major, the Quarter-Master-Sergeant, the Orderly-Room-Clerk, the Sergeant Instructor of Musketry, the Pipe-Major, the Drum-Major, the Band Sergeant and, possibly, the Staff-Armourer-Sergeant (depending on his length of service). All of these men wore a 4-bar chevron at that time.

NB.  The printed extracts below are from Major N P Dawnay’s The Badges of Warrant and Non-Commissioned Rank in the British Army.

Meticulous and impressive research, Frogsmile. 

The theory that sashes for staff sergeants were discarded in the 1864 – 1869 period when scarf plaids and shoulder belts (for some) were issued is plausible.  The original reason may well have been because of the conflict with the shoulder belt as it was for the 78^th.  There is another step is the evolution of Cameron full dress for staff sergeants that has yet to be treated.  At some point post c1869 the shoulder belts were withdrawn and replaced by waistbelts with slings to suspend the sword.  The exception is the Drum Major who retained the shoulder belt probably through 1961.  I don’t know when the shoulder belts disappeared, but I reckon it had to be before about 1905, perhaps even much earlier. That would have been an opportune time to re-introduce sashes, but they weren’t. By that time, I would conclude, the regimental disdain for excessive frippery had taken hold ruling out any inclinations toward sashes.  That’s my theory.

There appears to be aspects of the timeline that do not sense to me. From the Dawnay extracts:

“In 1869, it was directed that Serjeant-Majors and Quartermaster-Serjeants of the Infantry would wear the four-bar chevron below the elbow. It was not, however, until some twelve years later that the chevron was placed point uppermost.” Presumably this was in 1881. 

Yet, in the 1864 group photo the Sergeant Major is seen wearing four chevrons below the elbow with point uppermost.  The 1869 photo depicts all the staff sergeants with chevrons below the elbow and point uppermost. This is 12 years before that configuration should have been seen according to Dawnay.  Something is off here, either Dawnay’s dates or the dates of the photos.  I am inclined to believe that the photos are correctly dated.  In the 1869 group, the slash cuffs chime nicely with that date and were likely modified to gauntlet cuffs within the next couple of years.  Dawnay’s dates are perplexing to me.

I see you've added a 78th photo to your post.

[FROGSMILE]

@gordon92 the photo of the First Class staff sergeants of the 79th at Roorkee is an absolute cracker and one of those of such historic significance that rarely come along.  I hope that you can obtain a clean copy to add to your piece.  Prints of it are being sold by both, the Anne S K Brown Collection, and the Almany Photographic Agency.

It’s rather intriguing that Maj Dawnay doesn’t appear to have seen the photo, as otherwise he would surely have mentioned it in his seminal work given its several special features.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a photo with the eight First Class Staff Sergeants all standing together, and that’s made me wonder if it was perhaps the reason for the gathering (photo opportunity) at the time - perhaps it was also an early outing for the shoulder plaids.  They are all wearing the four stripes stipulated in 1862, but wearing them both, inverted, and on the lower arm, a positioning stated by Dawnay to not be stipulated until over a decade later (by the Cardwell Reforms).

If one compares with the photos of the 78th at a similar time period it is even more striking, as they have the badges of their First Class Staff on the upper arm, and point down too.  It appears that the 79th, by accident rather than design, were well ahead of their time in terms of the positioning and orientation of badges of rank.  It’s quite extraordinary that two regiments of highlanders, one in Canada and one in India, at around the same period, should have interpreted instructions about badges of rank quite so differently.

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Meticulous and impressive research, Frogsmile. 

 

The theory that sashes for staff sergeants were discarded in the 1864 – 1869 period when scarf plaids and shoulder belts (for some) were issued is plausible.  The original reason may well have been because of the conflict with the shoulder belt as it was for the 78^th.  There is another step is the evolution of Cameron full dress for staff sergeants that has yet to be treated.  At some point post c1869 the shoulder belts were withdrawn and replaced by waistbelts with slings to suspend the sword.  The exception is the Drum Major who retained the shoulder belt probably through 1961.  I don’t know when the shoulder belts disappeared, but I reckon it had to be before about 1905, perhaps even much earlier. That would have been an opportune time to re-introduce sashes, but they weren’t. By that time, I would conclude, the regimental disdain for excessive frippery had taken hold ruling out any inclinations toward sashes.  That’s my theory.

 

There appears to be aspects of the timeline that do not sense to me. From the Dawnay extracts:

 

“In 1869, it was directed that Serjeant-Majors and Quartermaster-Serjeants of the Infantry would wear the four-bar chevron below the elbow. It was not, however, until some twelve years later that the chevron was placed point uppermost.” Presumably this was in 1881. 

 

Yet, in the 1864 group photo the Sergeant Major is seen wearing four chevrons below the elbow with point uppermost.  The 1869 photo depicts all the staff sergeants with chevrons below the elbow and point uppermost. This is 12 years before that configuration should have been seen according to Dawnay.  Something is off here, either Dawnay’s dates or the dates of the photos.  I am inclined to believe that the photos are correctly dated.  In the 1869 group, the slash cuffs chime nicely with that date and were likely modified to gauntlet cuffs within the next couple of years.  Dawnay’s dates are perplexing to me.

 

I see you've added a 78th photo to your post.

Thank you for your reply.  I have found it interesting to follow this through and spent much of the day today with many books on the subject under review strewn around me.  With regards to your specific points:

1. The abolition of the shoulder belt is mentioned in at least one of my references and I’ll reply tomorrow with the detail.  I agree that it was most likely before WW1, but will check.

2. I mean no offence, but I think you’re reading way too much into the ‘dislike of frippery’ quoted to you, by David Murray.  Not that it didn’t exist, for I would never gainsay his experience and perception, I just don’t think that the sergeants red sash, specifically, would have been seen as frippery.  It was worn by all the sergeants for centuries and recognised across the whole infantry.  It was an ancient privilege and seen by them as such.  I think that the frippery to which he was referring related to the kilt bows, rosettes, decorative panels, ribbons, and fancy pins, brooches, and fox head sporrans, etc. so favoured by the other Highlanders.

3.  I believe that Dawnay simply hadn’t seen all the images that we have been able to see as a result of the internet and that therefore some of the information in his book is incomplete.  I’ve mentioned this in my last post and a comparison of the 78th and 79th badges refers.  I think that there was misinterpretation of how badges were to be worn.  This extends to not only the First Class Staff Sergeant’s, but also the Colour Sergeants, as I’ve seen several variations of how their badges were worn, and yet there should only have been two.  One method for the centre companies, and one for the flank companies.

4.  I concur with you that the photo is correctly dated as 1869, as it is one of a set of various rank groupings taken by the regiment at Roorkee.  Therefore Dawnay’s 1881 reference to the positioning of the 4-bar stripes was misconstrued.  He is correct that it was in that year that the Childers Reforms stipulated the positioning of all 4-bar chevrons point up below the elbow, but he was incorrect in his assumption that no unit had worn them that way previously.  I have seen other cases of various other regiments wearing their rank badges differently over that same 1860s period (remember there was significant and extensive publication effort in 1864) which was clearly misinterpreted given the several variations.  That phenomenon has given me the distinct impression that some of the circulars and general orders were not worded in such a way as to be unambiguous, given the clear differences in the positioning of badges that can be seen across several different regiments, not all of them Scottish by any means.

NB.  You have not answered my query above concerning what appears to be the two distinctly different tartans being worn in the subject photograph of the 79th at Roorkee?

Afternotes:

a. I have reservations about the 1910 photo as supposedly being in India.  This is on the basis of a threefold suspicion, first that the building behind them looks nothing like India and suspiciously more like Scotland, second that the SNCOs frocks have not been piped white around the edges, as they always were in India, and third because there’s no sign of any Wolseley helmets.

b. @gordon92The enclosed colour image shows a sergeant drummer circa 1912.  If he was painted from life, and not representing an artist’s error, the fact that he’s wearing a red sash might be significant as to when things might have changed. If we can ascertain when the home service battalion adopted the 4-company organisation with one CSgt as CSM and one CSgt as CQMS, which effectively and fatally undermined the old battalion staff pecking order, that might potentially mark when the practice with sashes began to change.

 

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

Here's a photo of Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry William Arnot QOCH wearing a QSA medal ......... and no sash.  went on to serve as 2Lt/TCapt William Arnot (15 Star/BWM/BVM/MiD)

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Here's a photo of Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry William Arnot QOCH wearing a QSA medal ......... and no sash.  went on to serve as 2Lt/TCapt William Arnot (15 Star/BWM/BVM/MiD)

Excellent stuff TullochArd, that’s a very good example of what occurred when that appointment’s title changed within what seems to have been the final decade where his regiment’s battalion staff dressed in that manner.

His dress was elevated as a result of his more senior appointment.  His fellow Colour Sergeants in the service companies, despite being of the same rank, were inferior by appointment and so wore sashes along with the rest of the company level sergeants (as per below for those unfamiliar).

What is your take / opinion regarding what appear to be two tartan setts in the 1869 photo of the 79th’s Battalion Staff?  It’s quite perplexing.  Could it be something to do with Ancient Cameron versus Cameron of Erracht?  Apparently there was a change at some point.

 

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Afternotes:

a. I have reservations about the 1910 photo as supposedly being in India.  This is on the basis of a threefold suspicion, first that the building behind them looks nothing like India and suspiciously more like Scotland, second that the SNCOs frocks have not been piped white around the edges, as they always were in India, and third because there’s no sign of any Wolseley helmets.

 

It's India Frogsmile but it's the Delhi Durbar of 1903 and not 1911.  The temporary (!) architecture is identical to these alternative shots of the Guard of Honour now in position in front of the Coronation Park dias for the Duke of Connaught and Lord Curzon.  The earlier date likely explains the absence of Wolsley Helmets and the peculiar SNCO frock coats as seen on the Drum Major (bottom photo) for one?

Edited 25 March by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

It's India Frogsmile but it's the Delhi Durbar of 1903 and not 1911.  The architecture is identical to these alternative shots of the Guard of Honour now in position in front of the Coronation Park dias for the Duke of Connaught and Lord Curzon.  The earlier date likely explains the absence of Wolsley Helmets and the peculiar SNCO frock coats as seen on the Drum Major (bottom photo) for one?

I wasn’t talking about that photo and backdrop at all, but this one with the arched doorway behind.

The ‘peculiar frocks’ (not frock coats which are long blue officers garments) are just the Scottish version of the standard, white piped SNCO frocks utilised as a cheaper form of full dress upper garment in India in lieu of expensive tunics for other ranks.  These are missing from the group photo with arched doorway hence why I’m sceptical it’s in India.

The rank and file had the same frock but without the white piping (see photos).  Here is an colour image of the standard non-Scottish equivalent, which commonly had a trefoil cuff knot.  Note the white piping that uniquely extends around the bottom as well as front edge and gives a distinctly unusual appearance even from a distance.

I’m still interested to learn your opinion about the 1869 tartan?

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

9 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Here's a photo of Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry William Arnot QOCH wearing a QSA medal ......... and no sash.  went on to serve as 2Lt/TCapt William Arnot (15 Star/BWM/BVM/MiD)

 

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Excellent stuff TullochArd, that’s a very good example of what occurred when that appointment’s title changed within what seems to have been the final decade where his regiment’s battalion staff dressed in that manner.

His dress was elevated as a result of his more senior appointment.  His fellow Colour Sergeants in the service companies, despite being of the same rank, were inferior by appointment and so wore sashes along with the rest of the company level sergeants (as per below for those unfamiliar).

What is your take / opinion regarding what appear to be two tartan setts in the 1869 photo of the 79th’s Battalion Staff?  It’s quite perplexing.  Could it be something to do with Ancient Cameron versus Cameron of Erracht?  Apparently there was a change at some point.

 

Yes, excellent photo TullchArd. He definitely wears a 1st class quality doublet as evidenced by the gold lacing around the collar and cuffs plus the bullion wire piping around the shoulder straps. The gold lace was universal pattern; only officers wore the thistle pattern.

Regarding the apparent contrasts in appearance of the tartans in the 1869 photo, I am aware of no different setts of the 79th tartan as worn by the Cameron Highlanders. There was a tendency for there to be more green in ORs kilts and plaids. The more finely weaved officers tartan cloth de-emphasized the green in favor of the blue. That may have something to do with what was seen in the photo.  That plus differing reflectivities for types of clothes probably also affect the rendering in the orthochromatic film.

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Regarding the apparent contrasts in appearance of the tartans in the 1869 photo, I am aware of no different setts of the 79th tartan as worn by the Cameron Highlanders. There was a tendency for there to be more green in ORs kilts and plaids. The more finely weaved officers tartan cloth de-emphasized the green in favor of the blue. That may have something to do with what was seen in the photo.  That plus differing reflectivities for types of clothes probably also affect the rendering in the orthochromatic film.

I too can find no mention of differing setts apart from a vague mentioning of Ancient Cameron in an American source.  I did also consider the different lighting and effects of old film (preceding ‘orthochromatic’ in 1869 I imagine although I haven’t checked), but if the lighting were a cause then I’d expect it to fall on one side of the frame only whereas in this case it’s just one fellow left another more centrally and perhaps one other, the others notably uniform and dark.  The only mention of relevance that I can find is a throwaway line in the short Osprey book by Stuart Reid and Gary Embleton, where a similar phenomenon is mentioned on page 32 in relation to an HLI officer, where it’s pointed out that the cloth of the plaid and the trews give a very different appearance despite being of the same (Mackenzie) tartan sett.  I don’t feel we’ve got to the bottom of it yet.

Edited 25 March by FROGSMILE