Full Dress Distinctions for Staff Sergeants and Warrant Officers of the Highland Infantry Regiments c1910-1914

[TullochArd]

56 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I wasn’t talking about that photo and backdrop at all, but this one.........I’m still interested to learn your opinion about the 1869 tartan?

Well I certainly got that one mixed up.  All I can add to this photo is a potential date.  The two on the right are most certainly wearing Queen's Sudan Medal 1896-98 and the other medal is therefore likely the Khedive's Sudan Medal 1896-98 with the bars ATBARA and KHARTOUM awarded to 1 QOCH. 

Regarding 1869 Cameron of Erracht/Govt No 4 - it's a weavers worst nightmare. Gordon92 has summed this up splendidly and I can't add anything of value to his observations.

Edited 25 March by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Well I certainly got that one mixed up.  All I can add to this photo is a potential date.  The two on the right are most certainly wearing Queen's Sudan Medal 1896-98 and the other medal is therefore likely the Khedive's Sudan Medal 1896-98 with the bars ATBARA and KHARTOUM awarded to 1 QOCH. 

Regarding 1869 Cameron of Erracht/Govt No 4 - it's a weavers worst nightmare. Gordon92 has summed this up splendidly and I can't add anything of value to his observations.

Thank you for taking a look, I appreciate it.

The photo is captioned as Army Day in India c 1910, but as explained visual evidence is much against that, perhaps reinforced by your comments regarding the medals.

 I note your comments about the 1869 photo, which remains perplexing.

[gordon92]

26 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Well I certainly got that one mixed up.  All I can add to this photo is a potential date.  The two on the right are most certainly wearing Queen's Sudan Medal 1896-98 and the other medal is therefore likely the Khedive's Sudan Medal 1896-98 with the bars ATBARA and KHARTOUM awarded to 1 QOCH. 

Regarding 1869 Cameron of Erracht/Govt No 4 - it's a weavers worst nightmare. Gordon92 has summed this up splendidly and I can't add anything of value to his observations.

 

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for taking a look, I appreciate it.

The photo is captioned as Army Day in India c 1910, but as explained visual evidence is much against that, perhaps reinforced by your comments regarding the medals.

 I note your comments about the 1869 photo, which remains perplexing.

Regarding the c1910 photo of the five Cameron sergeants, it is a quite strange photo in a number of ways. I'm not as bothered by the absence of piping on the frocks as I've seen that before on frocks of Highland sergeants. I am more puzzled by the unkempt appearance of what are supposed to be regular soldiers of the 2nd Camerons. Three of the four have no waistbelts. The three wearing full plaids have tied the plaids sloppily leaving the front fall. The two with fly plaids have draped the rear portion over the shoulder likely for photographic effect.  The QMS's sporran is much too low and noticeably offset to his left.  It seems as though they just threw on those uniforms quickly for an obligatory photo to "get it over with."

[FROGSMILE]

On 25/03/2024 at 17:01, gordon92 said:

 

Regarding the c1910 photo of the five Cameron sergeants, it is a quite strange photo in a number of ways. I'm not as bothered by the absence of piping on the frocks as I've seen that before on frocks of Highland sergeants. I am more puzzled by the unkempt appearance of what are supposed to be regular soldiers of the 2nd Camerons. Three of the four have no waistbelts. The three wearing full plaids have tied the plaids sloppily leaving the front fall. The two with fly plaids have draped the rear portion over the shoulder likely for photographic effect.  The QMS's sporran is much too low and noticeably offset to his left.  It seems as though they just threw on those uniforms quickly for an obligatory photo to "get it over with."

It’s certainly a strange photo and that’s why I was suspicious about the caption.  Although you’re right that the absence of piping on the frocks is not unusual generally it most certainly is if it were India, where that is the specification for SNCO garments utilised as proxy full dress.  However, various published references describe the frocks as issued at home for “manoeuvres and active service” in addition to white drill jackets. 

Edited 29 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of your question regarding the abolition of the sword cross belt for battalion headquarters staff sergeants.  To do that I wanted to confirm the change of shoulder for red sashes, as that was linked, and so I’ve scoured through a great many published references today.

Most significantly I found a small reference by Stuart Reid that confirms the sashes were to switch shoulders in 1856 because the officers were to wear their sashes on the same shoulder as the sergeants hitherto, purely because they, the officers, were adopting sword shoulder belts.  No other reference mentions that sergeants were to wear their sash on the opposing shoulder except where sword shoulder belts are fitted (in which case positioned the same as the officers for those SNCOs concerned).  That is a unique reference, and I cannot find mention of that small, but very important caveat in the much larger tomes of a great many legendary uniformologists.  That then was the start point for the HQ staff sergeants, 1856.  Rather than have two contradictory modes of wear the staff sergeants of Cameron’s simply stopped wearing the sash altogether if carrying swords. 

From what I can unravel the finish point seems to be the 1903 Bandolier Equipment that replaced Slade-Wallace infantry equipment.  With it came a sword belt and carriage for warrant officers and staff sergeants that looks as if it eventually replaced the review order shoulder belts, probably after WW1 when full dress was no longer issued.  It was used by the most senior SNCOs throughout the war.  However, the shoulder belt continued in use for officers, and is still their review order dress for public duties today.

The two lowermost pages, 71 and 72 are extracts from the published regulations of 1863 written by the staff officer Captain Martin Petrie.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

From what I can unravel the finish point seems to be the 1903 Bandolier Equipment that replaced Slade-Wallace infantry equipment.  With it came a sword belt and carriage for warrant officers and staff sergeants that looks as if it eventually replaced the review order shoulder belts, probably after WW1 when full dress was no longer issued.

I'm not sure I totally understand this.  If you're saying a white buff sword belt and carriage was available in 1903 to replace the review order shoulder belts for most staff sergeants and some warrant officers, that is consistent with photographic evidence.  Actually, three of the staff sergeants in the 1869 photo have a waistbelt/slings for their swords. The sergeant majors and bandmasters of the Highland regiments, except for the Cameron Highlanders, retained the shoulder belt and dressed almost identically to officers in review order.  The drum majors of the Camerons, 2nd Gordons, and HLI (Bugle Major) also retained the shoulder belt. This changeover occurred at least a decade before WW1, so I don't get the "....probably after WW1" notation. While I appreciate your admirable attempts to make total order out of things, the regiments (especially Highland regiments) regarded clothing regulations and other orders as only suggestions as I think you know.

Edited 25 March by gordon92

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, gordon92 said:

I'm not sure I totally understand this.  If you're saying a white buff sword belt and carriage was available in 1903 to replace the review order shoulder belts for most staff sergeants and some warrant officers, that is consistent with photographic evidence.  Actually, three of the staff sergeants in the 1869 photo have a waistbelt/slings for their swords. The sergeant majors and bandmasters of the Highland regiments, except for the Cameron Highlanders, retained the shoulder belt and dressed almost identically to officers in review order.  The drum majors of the Camerons, 2nd Gordons, and HLI (Bugle Major) also retained the shoulder belt. This changeover occurred at least a decade before WW1, so I don't get the "....probably after WW1" notation. While I appreciate your admirable attempts to make total order out of things, the regiments (especially Highland regiments) regarded clothing regulations and other orders as only suggestions as I think you know.

The white sword belt and carriage existed for a long time Mike, yes.  The last widespread issue of it in buff leather for whitening was the Slade-Wallace type, which became obsolescent from 1903 in that it was replaced by the brown leather type complimenting but separate to the Bandolier Equipment.  However, the white belt and bayonet frog alone continued to be available in large stocks, as it was resilient and most units retained them in store for ceremonial.  Foot Guards continued to have access on demand to brand new stocks of a slightly modified version for their use on public duties.  They had retained regimental clasps for these, with everyone else using the Union clasp.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your query.  I thought you were trying to establish when the cross belt, sword carriage, was abolished for battalion staff?  If that is so then I cannot find any direct reference to that, but think it was probably at some point after WW1 given that full dress was no longer general issue.

As regards the Highlander’s clothing, and regimental culture in general, yes I am familiar with Black Watch, Gordon Highlanders, Queen’s Own Highlanders and RHF** largely as a result of serving in garrisons with them in the U.K. Germany and Hong Kong over a 15-year period.  With the interest in uniform that I’ve always had I took every opportunity to examine items of clothing and regalia and time spent subsequently at the School of Infantry was particularly useful in that regard due to the throughput of soldiers, NCOs, and officers under training.  If I can help further I will do so.

Sadly there were far more opportunities in those days than there are today.  Every battalion still had its own band and separate pipes and drums (drums and pipes).  Daily routine was piped and marked by sound of bugle.  Garrison tattoos such as that at Tidworth were annual summer events (the last in 1976), and beating retreat also a regular occurrence in summer and winter (searchlights borrowed from TA for the latter), not to mention Rhine Army Summer Shows and the Silver Jubilee Review of BAOR by HM the Queen.  In later years I took my wife and family to the events too.  It was a big part of our lives.  Things were very different then. 

** the latter two, merged regiments with elements of dress tradition from both their antecedent regiments.

 

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The only mention of relevance that I can find is a throwaway line in the short Osprey book by Stuart Reid and Gary Embleton, where a similar phenomenon is mentioned on page 32 in relation to an HLI officer, where it’s pointed out that the cloth of the plaid and the trews give a very different appearance despite being of the same (Mackenzie) tartan sett.  I don’t feel we’ve got to the bottom of it yet.

I confess, it was me... Stuart Reid

The page in question is a colour plate depicting full dress uniforms of 2HLI in the 1900s. Gerry produced for me a superb image of Sergeant Bugler Mauchan, which was based on a good photograph of Mauchin showing a very clear distinction between the hard tartan of his trews and the finer [and lighter coloured] weight of the plaid.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, 6RRF said:

I confess, it was me... Stuart Reid

The page in question is a colour plate depicting full dress uniforms of 2HLI in the 1900s. Gerry produced for me a superb image of Sergeant Bugler Mauchan, which was based on a good photograph of Mauchin showing a very clear distinction between the hard tartan of his trews and the finer [and lighter coloured] weight of the plaid.

Then I am glad to make your acquaintance and wish to salute you Sir🫡I🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿.  The only other quite intriguing mention of lustre and variation in the visual appearance of tartan setts that I can find, is in an interesting paragraph by Douglas N Anderson, another superb artist of Scottish uniform, in his book Scots in Uniform.  Within the section on Seaforth Highlanders is the printed extract enclosed below.  The mention of the effect of silk threads seems significant when combined with the difference in texture between the plaids and the kilts.  I feel that we’ve probably solved the matter now.

Your paragraph on page 44 concluding the description of illustration D (92nd Gordon Highlanders) is also for me a revelation, when you pointed out that only the Highlanders sergeants without a sword cross belt switched shoulders for their red sash in 1856.  Not even the greats like Carman, Barnes, Fosten(s), Barthorp, Westlake, Mollo, Bowling, Anderson and Cochrane had mentioned that important caveat in their influential tomes.  It is vividly borne out by the numerous photos of the 78th.

It seems a pity that Major Dawnay never got to see the photos of the 78th in Canada and 79th in India despite his delving in dusty collections when researching his great and seminal work on badges of rank.  It would’ve prevented some of the misinterpretations he made.

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The white sword belt and carriage existed for a long time Mike, yes.  The last widespread issue of it in buff leather for whitening was the Slade-Wallace type, which became obsolescent from 1903 in that it was replaced by the brown leather type complimenting but separate to the Bandolier Equipment.  However, the white belt and bayonet frog alone continued to be available in large stocks, as it was resilient and most units retained them in store for ceremonial.  Foot Guards continued to have access on demand to brand new stocks of a slightly modified version for their use on public duties.  They had retained regimental clasps for these, with everyone else using the Union clasp.

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood your query.  I thought you were trying to establish when the cross belt, sword carriage, was abolished for battalion staff?  If that is so then I cannot find any direct reference to that, but think it was probably at some point after WW1 given that full dress was no longer general issue.

As regards the Highlander’s clothing, and regimental culture in general, yes I am familiar with Black Watch, Gordon Highlanders, Queen’s Own Highlanders and RHF** largely as a result of serving in garrisons with them in the U.K. Germany and Hong Kong over a 15-year period.  With the interest in uniform that I’ve always had I took every opportunity to examine items of clothing and regalia and time spent subsequently at the School of Infantry was particularly useful in that regard due to the throughput of soldiers, NCOs, and officers under training.  If I can help further I will do so.

Sadly there were far more opportunities in those days than there are today.  Every battalion still had its own band and separate pipes and drums (drums and pipes).  Daily routine was piped and marked by sound of bugle.  Garrison tattoos such as that at Tidworth were annual summer events (the last in 1976), and beating retreat also a regular occurrence in summer and winter (searchlights borrowed from TA for the latter), not to mention Rhine Army Summer Shows and the Silver Jubilee Review of BAOR by HM the Queen.  In later years I took my wife and family to the events too.  It was a big part of our lives.  Things were very different then. 

** the latter two, merged regiments with elements of dress tradition from both their antecedent regiments.

 

Thank you for this rundown, Frogsmile. I had not previously understood that the 1903 change referred to a brown leather type separate from the Bandolier equipment.

That must have been very sad to have seen those summer events expire while you were still serving. I should imagine that the ceremonial part of soldiering is all but gone now notwithstanding the Guards' duties in the London area and, perhaps, the Edinburgh Tattoo for the bands.

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, 6RRF said:

I confess, it was me... Stuart Reid

The page in question is a colour plate depicting full dress uniforms of 2HLI in the 1900s. Gerry produced for me a superb image of Sergeant Bugler Mauchan, which was based on a good photograph of Mauchin showing a very clear distinction between the hard tartan of his trews and the finer [and lighter coloured] weight of the plaid.

Stuart,

Would it be in violation of any copyright law if you were to post the colour plate of the 2HLI uniforms? If that were possible, I would be grateful.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/03/2024 at 14:22, gordon92 said:

That must have been very sad to have seen those summer events expire while you were still serving. I should imagine that the ceremonial part of soldiering is all but gone now notwithstanding the Guards' duties in the London area and, perhaps, the Edinburgh Tattoo for the bands.

Yes that is so, although there is a forlorn hope with the surviving infantry battalion’s corps of drums, corps of bugles, and drums and pipes (in seniority order), in that without bands some commanding officers have made sterling efforts to encourage the musical effort of these last bastions of traditional military musical cadence.  Even so, they are a shadow of their former selves and apparently the Royal Regiment of Scotland has struggled to obtain sufficient pipers.

The recent treatment of the 1st Battalion RRS (Royal Scots Borderers) was nothing short of a shameful tragedy, and yet it passed largely without comment in a way that said a lot about what’s happened to the historic military culture here.  There are real problems with the UK’s traditional heritage as demographics and ethnicity change and all the signs are that it will get worse.

Edited 29 March by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

54 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Stuart,

Would it be in violation of any copyright law if you were to post the colour plate of the 2HLI uniforms? If that were possible, I would be grateful.

Mike

I was going to, but No.1 Son has altered my scanner. However, he's back now, so once he's altered it back I'll give it a go

[6RRF]

The villain had changed the cable!

However, here we are. The illustration is by Gerry Embleton, who prepared it for my book Queen Victoria's Highlanders, published by Osprey 2007

 

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

The villain had changed the cable!

However, here we are. The illustration is by Gerry Embleton, who prepared it for my book Queen Victoria's Highlanders, published by Osprey 2007

 

Excellent Stuart.  Your little book has been very helpful as mentioned.  Can you remember how and when you spotted the 1856 differential in relation to the shoulder on which the red sash was worn between battalion HQ staff, and the company sergeants?  Had the significance when compared with non Highlander regiments, and the contrary practice of the 79th Cameron’s impacted at all in your mind?

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Excellent Stuart.  Your little book has been very helpful as mentioned.  Can you remember how and when you spotted the 1856 differential in relation to the shoulder on which the red sash was worn between battalion HQ staff, and the company sergeants?  Had the significance when compared with non Highlander regiments, and the contrary practice of the 79th Cameron’s impacted at all in your mind?

The differential was noticed in this 1861 photograph which I always think of as Major Macbean waiting for a bus. I did a lot of work in the SUSM at the time so may have picked up something there

[FROGSMILE]

On 26/03/2024 at 17:41, 6RRF said:

The differential was noticed in this 1861 photograph which I always think of as Major Macbean waiting for a bus. I did a lot of work in the SUSM at the time so may have picked up something there

I love the bus queue analogy, it’s very apposite!  It’s a testament to your attention to detail that you picked up on that differential when it had been missed by so many before you.  Kudos!

Something else that often wasn’t properly understood was that for as long as rank was worn on both arms the Highlander’s flank company colour sergeants wore their single bar colour badges on both arms, whereas the battalion companies wore it only on the right arm with 3-bars on the left arm.  The flank companies were abolished in 1858, but the practice with the stripes described didn’t change until some years later.  There was some confusion with the both arms policy in all the regiments for which it applied and they even often put GCB on both arms, which wasn’t intended at all. 

Edited 28 March by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

33 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

....... how curious - two pipers on parade and both left handed players with pipes carried on right shoulder.

[gordon92]

3 hours ago, 6RRF said:

The villain had changed the cable!

However, here we are. The illustration is by Gerry Embleton, who prepared it for my book Queen Victoria's Highlanders, published by Osprey 2007

 

Great image, Stuart. Thanks very much.  Is the Sergeant Drummer intended to be J. Maugham?

[gordon92]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes that is so, although there is a forlorn hope with the surviving infantry battalion’s corps of drums, corps of bugles, and drums and pipes (in seniority order), in that without bands some commanding officers have made sterling efforts to encourage the musical effort of these last bastions of traditional military musical cadence.  Even so, they are a shadow of their former selves and apparently the Royal Regiment of Scotland has struggled to obtain sufficient pipers.  The recent treatment of the 1st Battalion RRS (Royal Scots Borderers) was nothing short of a shameful tragedy, and yet it passed largely without comment in a way that said a lot about what’s happened to the historic military culture here.  There are real problems with the UK’s traditional heritage and all the signs are that it will get worse.

As far as you know, when the 1st Bn RRS was transformed into a Ranger battalion did it lose its pipes and drums as well as Scottish dress?

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

As far as you know, when the 1st Bn RRS was transformed into a Ranger battalion did it lose its pipes and drums as well as Scottish dress?

Yes, I discussed it with a former regimental officer.  They lost everything.  The few remaining pipers transferred.  The callous sacrifice of the oldest, and most loyal of the Scottish regiments, that with others fought the Highlander’s in the service of the crown during the 1745 uprising was beyond shameful. 

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I discussed it with a former regimental officer.  They lost everything.  The few remaining pipers transferred.  The callous sacrifice of the oldest, and most loyal of the Scottish regiments, that with others fought the Highlander’s in the service of the crown during the 1745 uprising was beyond shameful. 

Indeed, sad and shameful.  Only three Scottish battalions left in the regular Army.  I would think and hope that if the MoD messed with the Black Watch (3rd RRS) there would be a national uproar.

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Indeed, sad and shameful.  Only three Scottish battalions left in the regular Army.  I would think and hope that if the MoD messed with the Black Watch (3rd RRS) there would be a national uproar.

I agree, but there should have been an uproar concerning the Royal Scots in particular, the oldest line regiment in the standing army.  By comparison the Highlanders are well over a century more junior, old though they might think they are. Royal Scots 1633.  Black Watch 1739.  A&SH 1799.

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

Great image, Stuart. Thanks very much.  Is the Sergeant Drummer intended to be J. Maugham?

Yes, its based on a photograph of him. I'm particularly pleased with the detail including the very clear cap lines.

[gordon92]

15 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Yes, its based on a photograph of him. I'm particularly pleased with the detail including the very clear cap lines.

Here's the photo of him from David Murray's Music of the Scottish Regiments.  Sorry about the orientation; the system has been rotating images on me lately.