scottish regiment ?

[Waddell]

I'm not sure if this adds any more to what is known of the Boer War Seton-Burns but it lists his eight Boer War Clasps.

This biography is from Bill Woolmore's 'The Bushveldt Carbineers and the Pietersburg Light Horse'.

Hope it is readable.

Scott

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Waddell said:

I'm not sure if this adds any more to what is known of the Boer War Seton-Burns but it lists his eight Boer War Clasps.

This biography is from Bill Woolmore's 'The Bushveldt Carbineers and the Pietersburg Light Horse'.

Hope it is readable.

Scott

 

 

Very interesting, presumably Lieutenant Colonel A G Burn was, at some point, the “officer on the staff” he quoted in court.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Very interesting, presumably Lieutenant Colonel A G Burn was, at some point, the “officer on the staff” he quoted in court.

Presumably so, though he was born in 1856 and had "retired" from the Indian Army Staff Corps shortly before the war!  

Why name one son "Augustus George" and another "Augustus George William" though?   Must have been confusing...

Sorry, getting a bit Augustus-happy!  Arthur George.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by pierssc
Wrong name quoted.

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Presumably so, though he was born in 1856 and had "retired" from the Indian Army Staff Corps shortly before the war!  

Why name one son "Augustus George" and another "Augustus George William" though?   Must have been confusing...

Yes there are so many commonalities in forenames, as well as surname use in these several strands of Burn / Seton-Burn, which for non genealogical detectives like me is most bewildering.

You make a good point about the fellow born in 1856 and I imagine that either the court mention was stretching the actuality, or that he was one of the then eponymous ‘dugouts’ seen in diverse corners of the staff in Britain and in India.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Given the propensity for families to draw on a narrow group of forenames and the sheer number of clergymans sons who filled out the British Army officer coprs in the Great War, who is the mysterious Vicar of St Johns, Toleworth? If he was an older brother then may well have been married and having sons by 1890.

I'm assuming this is "Tolworth", near Kingston, Surrey, where there is indeed at St John the Baptist C of E church. Unfortunately the church website had nothing on it's history. https://inthevale.org.uk/

However there is is also a church of St John and the Good Shepherd in Kingston.

I'm not turning up any likely candidate for the resident CoE clergy at Tolworth on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, but the may not have been resident there and also may not have been the brother at that time.

The free search of the 1921 Census of England & Wales on FindMyPast isn't turning up anyone with the surname Burn living at Tolworth. It turns up two Seton's as living nearby - an Alfred Ernest born Rotherhite c1882 and an Ena Ann, born Exeter c1886. Not finding a match for Alfred in the pre-war census although there is an Albert Seton at Rotherhithe on the 1891 Census and a Lance Corporal Albert Ernest Seton, 9th Lancers, single and in barracks at Canterbury on the 1911 Census.

A search for a Reverend Burn on the 1911 Census of England & Wales does bring up an interesting candidate. The Reverend Andrew Ewbank Burn, born India, was recorded as a 47 year old married Clerk in Holy Orders, Church of England, and living at The Vicarage, Halifax. He and wife Celia Mary have been married 17 years and the union has produced 4 children, all then still alive. Only two were at home on the night of the Census - Andrew Robert Burn, aged 8 and born Kynnersley, Shropshire, and Hester(?) Francisca Burn, aged 5 and born Handworth?, Staffordshire.

Andrew Ewbank Burn has a small article on Wikipedia, which references him being Rector of Kynnersley, but doesn't give any reference to Staffordshire or mention Halifax. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Burn

But checking out the 1901 Census of England & Wales entry for the family when they are recorded at St Chad's Rectory, Kynnersley, the two older children are both daughters, Mary Cord, (6) and Augusta Ceilia, (4).

So another dead end there.

I've tried a variety of (free) searches on the British Newspaper Archive looking to establish who was the clergyman at St John the Baptist, Tolworth during the decade 1910-19, but when I do find anything it is always garbled.

Can anyone else do better?

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 20 June , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[pierssc]

Hi Peter, according to the seemingly well-researched tree I've found on Ancestry, the brothers were Augustus Arthur George b.1856, the Colonel, Augustus Charles Seton Burn b.1861, William Augustus F. Burn, b. 1863, Montague Rundall Seton Burn b.1866, and Henry Seaton Burn, b.1868, all in India.  The compiler of the tree hasn't gone into what most of them did in later life and they're not terribly obvious on normal ancestry searches.

 

 

Edited 20 June , 2023 by pierssc
Typo

[TullochArd]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Very interesting, presumably Lieutenant Colonel A G Burn was, at some point, the “officer on the staff” he quoted in court.

Lt Col Arthur George Burn ......... "covering his service in the United Kingdom as a staff officer in the 66th Division stationed at Crowborough, Sussex and Colchester, Essex (July 1915 - April 1917), transfer to the secretarial staff of Lord Milner's Committee for Russian Supplies (May 1917-June 1918), and then active service with the North Russian Expeditionary Force (June 1918-January 1919)" 

Source: Lieutenant Colonel A G Burn | The National Archives

Edited 20 June , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

......... "covering his service in the United Kingdom as a staff officer in the 66th Division stationed at Crowborough, Sussex and Colchester, Essex (July 1915 - April 1917), transfer to the secretarial staff of Lord Milner's Committee for Russian Supplies (May 1917-June 1918), and then active service with the North Russian Expeditionary Force (June 1918-January 1919)" 

Source: Lieutenant Colonel A G Burn | The National Archives

Extraordinary that he deployed overseas so late in the war and at a relatively advanced age.  Presumably it would have entitled him to the war and victory medals, although I’m not sure that the latter was applicable.

An important point is that his brother wasn’t telling fibs in court…

Edited 20 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

Apologies, the Colonel A.G. Burn b.1856 was Arthur George not Augustus George as I stated.

[TullochArd]

46 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

......... Presumably it would have entitled him to the war and victory medals.

It did.  The reverse of the MIC notes a deleted address Beaumont, Jersey, Channel Islands and the in use address as c/o Grindlay's Ho. (a Bank), 54 Parliament St,  SW1.

Augustus did indeed have a brother on the Staff. 

Edited 20 June , 2023 by TullochArd
SW1

[FROGSMILE]

On 20/06/2023 at 14:01, TullochArd said:

It did.  The reverse of the MIC notes a deleted address Beaumont, Jersey, Channel Islands and the in use address as c/o Grindlays (a Bank), 54 Parliament St, SW1.

Augustus did indeed have a brother on the Staff. 

Very interesting to see the confirmation, and also that he settled in the Channel Islands.  I’ve noticed previously that quite a few ex military retired there in the past.  Few would be able to afford it nowadays unless privately wealthy.  There was still a substantial garrison there until the 1920s, so he probably felt at home with a pleasant micro climate that wasn’t too much of a shocking departure from the India that he was used to. 

Edited 28 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Glengarry1950]

I was drawn to this thread by Frogsmile because of the assumption that there was a King’s Own Scottish Borderers connection. I carried out a preliminary check in Capt Stair Gillian’s book ‘The K.O.S.B. in the Great War, which include all the Battalions of the KOSB that served in the Great War, there is no mention in any combinations of surname or initials that could relate to this individual in the Photograph in the opening post of the Thread.

A close-up inspection of this photograph, in particular the service dress buttons, they do show quite clearly the ‘Royal Crest’, which has been a feature on our Regiments, Colour, Cap Badge and Buttons since 1805. Moreover, our button has always been encircled by the Regiments Title, one can clearly see in the said photograph, the buttons in question in this photograph do not have any inscription surrounding the ‘Royal Crest’. Therefore, I would strongly suggest the only Infantry Regiment with a plain button displaying the ‘Royal Crest’  would be Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment.

Additionally, the collar badge hole would not be in that position if it were to have had a KOSB collar badge which is of Edinburgh Castle and would leave two distinct parallel holes about half an inch above line where the bottom of the Staff Officers Red tab ends, and finally he is not wearing the Scottish Officers Service Dress Pattern Jacket which was always retained by regimental officers when appointed to the staff.

I would suggest a search of the QORWK Regimental records for WW1 which may possibly shed some light on this conundrum.

PS Frogsmile, I have spoken to Gerry the Regimental Museum officer and Archivist there is no possibility of this officer in the photograph of have ever been a KOSB Officer at any stage or stretch of the imagination.

Good luck chaps, I have really enjoyed journey so far, it is now turning into a Rabbit warren.

Warm wishes

Hiram

Edited 20 June , 2023 by Glengarry1950
clarity

[Tawhiri]

This would seem to be some of the children from the marriage of Augustus George William Burn and Helen Marie Gilman George.

Arthur George Burn (1856) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VT1-X12X

Helen Ada Burn (1858) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FKN-MSH5

Augustus Charles Seton Burn (1861) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VYM-CJXM

Montague Randall Seton Burn (1866) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6VYM-8ZWW

Augustus George William Burn (1875) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6X27-7NJH

Father Augustus George William Burn died on 1 March 1875, only a few days after the birth of son Augustus George William on 12 February 1875.

Henry Seton Burn ended up in South Africa sometime before 1903, where he married Amy Elizabeth Hopkins on 16 November 1903. He died on 2 March 1930 in South Africa, leaving a widow and two daughters. His occupation on marriage was given as banker, while his death notice described him as an accountant.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:8TTL-28W2

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCF-57ZL

[Glengarry1950]

Frogsmile, I have a thought on the 1911 Coronation medal, the young man in the photograph could have been entitled to the medal if he was involved in some way either in the UK or in India were the family had a connection if in the UK at Eaton for example, I have seen young 2 Lt pre 1914 with the medal ribbon on their tunic, just a thought.

Cheers

Hiram

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Glengarry1950 said:

I was drawn to this thread by Frogsmile because of the assumption that there was a King’s Own Scottish Borderers connection. I carried out a preliminary check in Capt Stair Gillian’s book ‘The K.O.S.B. in the Great War, which include all the Battalions of the KOSB that served in the Great War, there is no mention in any combinations of surname or initials that could relate to this individual in the Photograph in the opening post of the Thread.

A close-up inspection of this photograph, in particular the service dress buttons, they do show quite clearly the ‘Royal Crest’, which has been a feature on our Regiments, Colour, Cap Badge and Buttons since 1805. Moreover, our button has always been encircled by the Regiments Title, one can clearly see in the said photograph, the buttons in question in this photograph do not have any inscription surrounding the ‘Royal Crest’. Therefore, I would strongly suggest the only Infantry Regiment with a plain button displaying the ‘Royal Crest’  would be Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment.

Additionally, the collar badge hole would not be in that position if it were to have had a KOSB collar badge which is of Edinburgh Castle and would leave two distinct parallel holes about half an inch above line where the bottom of the Staff Officers Red tab ends, and finally he is not wearing the Scottish Officers Service Dress Pattern Jacket which was always retained by regimental officers when appointed to the staff.

I would suggest a search of the QORWK Regimental records for WW1 which may possibly shed some light on this conundrum.

PS Frogsmile, I have spoken to Gerry the Regimental Museum officer and Archivist there is no possibility of this officer in the photograph of have ever been a KOSB Officer at any stage or stretch of the imagination.

Good luck chaps, I have really enjoyed journey so far, it is now turning into a Rabbit warren.

Warm wishes

Hiram

Thank you Hiram.  As always your input is deeply appreciated, especially given how busy I know you to be with the decamping of the KOSB Museum from its current location.  I know that I will speak for all here in wishing you and your colleagues a successful transit.

With best regards,

FS.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Glengarry1950 said:

Frogsmile, I have a thought on the 1911 Coronation medal, the young man in the photograph could have been entitled to the medal if he was involved in some way either in the UK or in India were the family had a connection if in the UK at Eaton for example, I have seen young 2 Lt pre 1914 with the medal ribbon on their tunic, just a thought.

Cheers

Hiram

Thank you Hiram, that’s a good point.  So the officer concerned might have received the medal via specific family connections then.  I hadn’t realised that was possible.

[Tawhiri]

Brother Montague is a boarder, presumably at a school of some sort, in Warminster, Wiltshire in the 1881 England and Wales census, and then completely disappears from view. Intriguingly, there is a Chelsea Pensioner's service record for a Montague Seton Rundell Burns, aged 40, with a last known rank of Sergeant, so if the record dated from the 1900's, this may be a match for him.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q278-GK15

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5CJ-QV4

Brother Arthur was resident at Mansel House in Mansel Lacy, Herefordshire in the 1911 England and Wales census, with an occupation of Lieutenant-Colonel in the Indian Army.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7J1-8Z6

So two brothers with Army connections, another who is a banker/accountant in South Africa, which leaves Augustus Charles Seton Burn as a possible candidate to be the vicar at St Johns, Toleworth.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by Tawhiri

[PRC]

1 hour ago, pierssc said:

Montague Rundall Seton Burn b.1866

Family Search have a baptism at Cannanore, Madras, India on the 18th January 1867 of a Montague Randall Seton Burn, son of Augustus George William Burn and Ellen Maria Gilman. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXK-VB5

That family tree undoubtedly has his appearance on the 1871 Census of England & Wales as the 4 year old Montague R S Burn , born India, who was recorded as a visitor at 1, Atlantic West, Weston Super Mare, (described as a "Home for Indian Children"). Also visiting were mother 'Helen' M.G. Burn, (aged 36, born Singapore) and siblings Ada H, (12), William A.F. (7), Mary A.S. (6) and Henry S, (2), all born India.

On the 1881 Census of England & Wales there is a 14 year old Montague R.S. Burn, born Mangalore, India, who was a boarding school pupil at Lord Weymouths Grammar School, Church Street, Warminster, Wiltshire.

No obvious sign of him on the outward passenger lists from the UK, but they wouldn't cover those going across the channel.

Via Fibis the edition of The Times of India dated the 21st April 1922 has a death announcement "Burn. - On 18th April at St George's Hospital Bombay of pneumonia Montague Randek Seton. Deeply regretted.", (indexed with the middle name as Randel so likely Randek is a typo). https://search.fibis.org/bin/simplesearchsummarycat.php?s_id=432&sn=Burn&fn=Montague&f=&to=&t=&c=&searchtype=default&cat=0&tn=1

Not finding a reference to him in (UK) The Times from that period. No obvious UK Probate entry.

Henry Seton Burn I think can probably be ruled out as the clergyman based on the information provided by @Tawhiri

Which just leaves

1 hour ago, pierssc said:

William Augustus F. Burn, b. 1863,

who would have been aged about 27 at the time the mystery major was born. The 1881 Census records him aged 17 and living with his mother Ellen G, in one of the households at The Lawn, East Budleigh, Devon.

In 1883 there are these announcements

Inage courtesy FindMyPast.

Have to take a break now - dentists appointment at 4

Will check out the Indian Army Lists later unless someone beats me to it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Glengarry1950]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Hiram, that’s a good point.  So the officer concerned might have received the medal via specific family connections then.  I hadn’t realised that was possible.

Hi Frogsmile

I have seen photographs of young officers wearing the 1911 Coronation riband who had been at Officer Training Units in Eaton, Oxford etc, during the 1911 Coronation and I believe he participated in some way to receive a 1911 Coronation Medal and there were similar in India where OTC members were present at the Delhi Durbar and with the India connection it is a possibility. There is a Book called a 'Village Remembers' published in 2014, is a record of all the men from the village of Strathblaine in Perthshire who died in the Great War, full of individuals stories taken from the names on the War Memorial in the village, the first is Lt John Jack Barr, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, KIA 25th April 1917 at St Julian, near Ypres there is a photograph of him in service dress uniform with kilt cover and a 1911 Coronation medal riband, he was born in Feb 1892 and would have been 19 in 1911 he served while at Oxford in the Oxford University Cavalry for two years so he more than likely received the medal then. 

Cheers

Hiram

[FROGSMILE]

On 20/06/2023 at 16:07, Glengarry1950 said:

Hi Frogsmile

I have seen photographs of young officers wearing the 1911 Coronation riband who had been at Officer Training Units in Eaton, Oxford etc, during the 1911 Coronation and I believe he participated in some way to receive a 1911 Coronation Medal and there were similar in India where OTC members were present at the Delhi Durbar and with the India connection it is a possibility. There is a Book called a 'Village Remembers' published in 2014, is a record of all the men from the village of Strathblaine in Perthshire who died in the Great War, full of individuals stories taken from the names on the War Memorial in the village, the first is Lt John Jack Barr, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, KIA 25th April 1917 at St Julian, near Ypres there is a photograph of him in service dress uniform with kilt cover and a 1911 Coronation medal riband, he was born in Feb 1892 and would have been 19 in 1911 he served while at Oxford in the Oxford University Cavalry for two years so he more than likely received the medal then. 

Cheers

Hiram

That makes complete sense Hiram, as I recall now that there were cadet contingents at the 1911 Coronation that just like nowadays served two purposes, they rewarded the commitment of the boys and the staff (school and other) and also helped make up numbers when such a substantial part of the Army was away forming the many garrisons overseas.  It applied to OTCs of both, senior (university) and junior (college) divisions.  They helped with street lining in more obscure locations and formed small bodies at various points along the procession.

Edited 28 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

• Reference:	IOR/L/MIL/9/204/639-45

• BURN, Augustus George William 1824-1875

  India Office Records.Accountant General's Records.East India Company and India Office: records of the administration of service and family pension...Madras Military Fund.Roll of subscribers to Madras... Oct 1858, d 3 Oct 1927 son b 2 Sep 1861 William Augustus F. b 20 Jun 1863 Mary Alice Seton b 22 Sep 1864, d 9 Dec 1914 Montague Rundall Seton b 2 Oct 1866 Henry Seton b 23 Jul 1868 Augustus George William b 12 Feb 1875...Madras Army, b 10 Mar 1824, d 1 Mar 1875 m Helen Maria Gilman 12 Feb 1855 (b 16 Oct 1834, d 28 Dec 1882) Arthur George b 10 Jun 1856 Helen Ada b 30

  Held by:	British Library: Asian and African Studies
  Date:	Dates unknown
  Reference:	IOR/L/AG/23/10/1 no.395

[Tawhiri]

58 minutes ago, PRC said:

Will check out the Indian Army Lists later unless someone beats me to it.

According to the Gazette he was promoted to Lieutenant with the Middlesex Regiment dated 3 August 1885, but to rank from 25 August 1883.

He certainly seems to have moved around a bit, having started with the Durham Light Infantry, before transferring to the Middlesex Regiment in late 1883/early 1884.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/25276/page/4833

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/25313/page/433

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/25554/page/444

After that though, he seems to disappear from view. Knowing that he is serving with the Army, however, then leaves one last brother as the candidate for the vicar - Augustus Charles Seton Burn who was born in 1861.