scottish regiment ?

[FROGSMILE]

This is a conundrum for forum pals @PRC @Tawhiri and all the other genealogy whizzes.

[allyreid67]

woe....never thought of that scenario...just presumed he was the Seton...I will now follow the female line and see if he married into them, as that seems more likely !

[CorporalPunishment]

The photo dates from after September 1919 when the Victory Medal was introduced. The fact that the medal ribbon for the VM is in the wrong place tells me it has been hastily added to the uniform. The correct order for his medal ribbons by that date was the Military Cross and Bar, the 1914 or 1914-1915 Star, the British War Medal, the Victory Medal, the Coronation Medal 1911 and the French Croix de Guerre. After November 1918 the order of wear for commemorative medals was changed so that they were preceded by campaign medals. He had clearly not got round to changing the order of his medal ribbons at the time the photo was taken which would date it to not long after September 1919.       Pete.

[PRC]

No Seton-Burn listed in the index to Harts Annual Army List for 1914, and no obvious candidates amongst the officers who were on the establishment of the Regular Army Battalios of the Kings Own Scottish Bordererers.

Same with the British Army Monthly List for January 1919. No Seton Brown in the Index. No obvious candidate for an officer with MC&Bar, or a Croiz de Guerre - although plenty with the single MC, and of course the Bar and CdeG could have come later \ monthly list had'nt caught up.

As a senior office there is also the likelihood that he continued serving in the interwar period and so was either still in the Army in 1939 or would be recalled from the reserve. But a sample check of the January 1940 British Army Monton List also had no Seton-Burn in the index.

Seton-Burn seems to be a very small breed, either with or without the hypen. I came up with none at all on the Census of Scotland up to and including 1901 - at least as far as the sources I have access to. The few I could find in the Census of England & Wales had birth places of Penang and Rangoon. The ones in the out bound UK passenger lists were all heading to South Africa - but no John's.

6 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

I have only discovered him through dna on Ancestry. 

I was sent the photo by my newly discovered relative who said his name was John Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn a notable family from Scotland, Barons, Earls etc.

Does this new found relative have a family tree on Ancestry that explains how Johns fits in? If, as speculated, the Seton-Bunn is as a result of marriage, then it may be possible to identify from that the name he had served as in the Great War,

Cheers,
Peter

[allyreid67]

he only appears in my tree and the one relative I have made contact with, who is my uncle, the son of Seton-Burn,  but he did not know his father and only had this photo and a few of his belongings that he was given after he died in 1956....all the other dna matches I have that are linked thru the same line do not have him in their tree, we believe he was a bit of a cad 😁 and so many of the dna matches wont know about him !

i have never found a birth registry for him and only have him on the electoral register from 1923 to 1956 in Kensington at several addresses and a census in 1939 in Barnes....Hi sdeath cert which i ordered shows his name as Augustus John S S Burn.

I think maybe Burn wss his surname and that as suggested through marriag le he added the other names, Gordon-Stuart Seton ???? 

 

 

never thought of that scenario...just presumed he was the Seton...I will now follow the female line and see if he married into them, as that seems more likely !

[TullochArd]

I think you are making useful progress.  To perhaps wind down another line regarding a recent Scottish military connection.  His SD jacket shows embroidered holes (below) for collar dogs beneath the staff patches.  This suggests it was worn in a previous regimental appointment.  Significantly, the jacket is not the longer Scottish cutaway pattern as worn by officers in Lowland regiments such as the KOSB. 

That 1911 Coronation or Delhi Durban ribbon set me off on another tangent.  There is a Lt AMS Burn, Indian Army Reserve of Officers.  That said, I wrote him off.   

Good hunting! 

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I think you are making useful progress.  To perhaps wind down another line regarding a recent Scottish military connection.  His SD jacket shows embroidered holes (below) for collar dogs beneath the staff patches.  This suggests it was worn in a previous regimental appointment.  Significantly, the jacket is not the longer Scottish cutaway pattern as worn by officers in Lowland regiments such as the KOSB. 

That 1911 Coronation or Delhi Durban ribbon set me off on another tangent.  There is a Lt AMS Burn, Indian Army Reserve of Officers.  That said, I wrote him off.   

Good hunting! 

Yes I noted the absence of the Scottish cut jacket in my third post above, but I’ve never seen such a jacket worn with staff forage cap.  Where it was worn it was usually with glengarry and staff badge, which seems to have been permitted in some headquarters, but not those of the highest level.  Dress regulations make no allowance for Scottish dress among staff officers.  Only ‘regimental buttons’ are prescribed.

Edited 14 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

It looks as though he is wearing another ring as well as the signet ring. A wedding ring perhaps? I had seen photos of the King wearing a plain band as well as his signet ring. 

[allyreid67]

yes can see that now, hadn't noticed before!

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I noted the absence of the Scottish cut jacket in my third post above, but I’ve never seen such a jacket worn with staff forage cap.  Where it was worn it was usually with glengarry and staff badge, which seems to have been permitted in some headquarters, but not those of the highest level.  Dress regulations make no allowance for Scottish dress among staff officers.  Only ‘regimental buttons’ are prescribed.

..... it's the prior presence of collar dogs on that jacket that intrigues me.

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

..... it's the prior presence of collar dogs on that jacket that intrigues me.

Yes I agree with your point.  It does call into question whether or not it is definitely an officer from the KOSB, and brings some small element of doubt.  Alternatively he might have purchased a second hand jacket so that he could wear the staff officers pattern of forage cap with its gold laced peak. One can imagine how he would cut a dash amongst the ladies.

Edited 14 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 13/06/2023 at 17:38, allyreid67 said:

I was sent the photo by my newly discovered relative who said his name was John Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn a notable family from Scotland, Barons, Earls etc.

9 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

i have never found a birth registry for him and only have him on the electoral register from 1923 to 1956 in Kensington at several addresses and a census in 1939 in Barnes....Hi sdeath cert which i ordered shows his name as Augustus John S S Burn.

I think maybe Burn wss his surname and that as suggested through marriag le he added the other names, Gordon-Stuart Seton ????

Um @allyreid67 - how did we get from John Gordon Stuart to Augustus John with any confidence that they are one and the same man?

As for Augustus, it looks like the death was registed with two name variations – Augustus J.S.S. Burn* and Augustus John Stuart Seton-Burn.
*GRO quarterly index of deaths in England & Wales shows this – the GRO website doesn’t have it so can only presume the middle initials stand for John Stuart Seton.

It was registered in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1956 in the Hampstead District of London and stated age was 65, pointing to a birth c1890/91.

No obvious entry in the civil probate calendar under Seton-Burn or Burn.

The 1939 Register has an Augustus John Stuart Seton-Burn, born 1890, recorded living at 45 Lonsdale Road, Barnes, Surrey. The only other Seton-Burn at the same address was a 1913 born Mary Ann, who would subsequently change her surname to English and Townsend. There may be others with difference surnames – I don’t subscribe so can’t see the details. It may be father and daughter, or it may be husband and much younger wife or multoiple other permutations – even the original document doesn’t tell you what the relationship is between the individuals in the household and so has to be guessed at.

45 Lonsdale Road, Barnes, September 2022  - image courtesy Google Street View. Various property sites state the average price of houses on this road is £1.9 million.

There is no obvious marriage in England & Wales of a Mary Ann to a Seton-Burn, nor a subsequent marriage. Nor is there a birth registered in England & Wales.

A death notice appeared in the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, January 31^st, 1956 but no clue as to who placed it, no mention of family and no mention of military title or awards.

 

Image courtesy The Times Digital Archive.

If you have the death certificate. who actually registered the death, what was there relationship to the deceased and their address, (if they were family)?

Cheers,
Peter

[allyreid67]

i had accidently left out the Augustus on my first post apologies.

my newly found uncle, Seton-Burn's son gave me the full name of John Augustus Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn and he is the son of Mary Ann English , this is her maiden name although she never actually married Seton-Burn,  she later married a Townsend in 1949 after they had split.

I think maybe  it was  easier  to just change your name without doing it officially back in those days ? Jacqueline Seton-Burn also on the 1939 census is the daughter. the house in Barnes was owned by Ernest Castelein a famous Belgian Painter,  and they all lived with him.

the death cert says Kathleen Crelllin registered the death, but does not state the relationship, he had been living with her in the late 40's up to 56, prior to being in the hospice he died in, but again on the eletoral resister her name was Seton-Burn,  but I believe  that there was no actual marriage as I cannot find one.

thanks for The Times notice, I had not seen this before !

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

i had accidently left out the Augustus on my first post apologies.

my newly found uncle, Seton-Burn's son gave me the full name of John Augustus Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn and he is the son of Mary Ann English , this is her maiden name although she never actually married Seton-Burn,  she later married a Townsend in 1949 after they had split.

I think maybe  it was  easier  to just change your name without doing it officially back in those days ? Jacqueline Seton-Burn also on the 1939 census is the daughter. the house in Barnes was owned by Ernest Castelein a famous Belgian Painter,  and they all lived with him.

the death cert says Kathleen Crelllin registered the death, but does not state the relationship, he had been living with her in the late 40's up to 56, prior to being in the hospice he died in, but again on the eletoral resister her name was Seton-Burn,  but I believe  that there was no actual marriage as I cannot find one.

thanks for The Times notice, I had not seen this before !

If not a cad he was certainly an adventurer.  Just need to track down his military record now.  It will be critical to know which name he served under.  Peter has done a fantastic job as I knew he would.

Edited 14 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

@allyreid67

I don’t have subscription access to confirm, so at the moment the only name variations I can see are:-

Augustus John Stuart Seton-Burn – 1939 Register and the GRO website and the Times death notice.
Augustus J.S.S. Burn. Alternative name on the GRO quartely index of deaths in England & Wales.
Augustus J.S. Seton-Burn. London Electoral Registers, and Kensington and Chelsea Electoral registers – sample screen-shot below.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

So no instances of John being used as the first name, no appearance of the name Gordon and so no hypenated Gordon-Stuart either.

Can you confirm what the documented sources for those variations are, and when they might have been in use.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 14 June , 2023 by PRC
Add attachment properly :-)

[IPT]

I went down a bit of a rabbit warren with Augustus last night, but I didn't think it was relevant.

He was a retired Captain in 1915 when he was sentenced to 6 months hard labour.  He then seems to have joined the Gordon Highlanders as a 40 year old private and been killed in action.

 

 

EDIT - Sorry, that was Augustus George William Seton-Burn

Edited 14 June , 2023 by IPT
wrong

[PRC]

12 minutes ago, IPT said:

Sorry, that was Augustus George William Seton-Burn

Not our man but ties in with the rabbit hole I disappeared down last night All the Seton-Burn's I could find were born outside the UK, and this Augustus is no exception. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as born Madras, India. I spent a fair bit of time on the FIBIS website (as a non-member), but ultimately came away with nothing for Augustus John and the briefest of mentions for Augustus George.  https://www.fibis.org/

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

Neither of you went down that rabbit hole alone, I've also just gone down that route too .

40 minutes ago, IPT said:

He was a retired Captain in 1915 when he was sentenced to 6 months hard labour.

He was also apparently bankrupted in 1906 as George Seton Burn.

Edited 14 June , 2023 by Tawhiri

[Tawhiri]

6 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

this is her maiden name although she never actually married Seton-Burn,  she later married a Townsend in 1949 after they had split.

Even if they never married, she did marry William T Townsend in 1949 as Mary Ann Seton Burn. There is also another Mary Ann Seton Burn, who according to the 1891 England and Wales census is the older sister of Augustus George William. She was born in India in 1864/65, and seems to have died in Plymouth, Devon in 1914.

Edited 15 June , 2023 by Tawhiri

[allyreid67]

there are a few electoral registers under JOHN Augustus and this is one of the addresses he lived at in Kensington.

He is very elusive indeed !

I have also been down the rabbit hole before and found the Seton-Burns of Madras/Devon but still couldn't find him.

 

the is also another person with a similar name of Augustus St John Seton but his dates of birth/death are different and no son called John Augustus either.

 

[allyreid67]

I have also been searching in the British Newspaper Archive and found this....he is named as Major Jack Burn, 40 Clareville is where he lived on Kensington 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, allyreid67 said:

he is named as Major Jack Burn, 40 Clareville is where he lived on Kensington 

We know from the death announcement in The Times that he was known as "Jack", so that stacks up.

For those of us without Ancestry and to keep the information all in one place, can you date those electoral register entries and the newspaper report. From an earlier posting I believe you said the earliest you could find him was 1923, so it would be particulalrly good to know what he was calling himself at the time.

As an officer he had to apply for his Great War service medals, so the absence of a likely Medal Index Card calls into question whether the man in the photo is who you think it is. But serving under some other variation of those names would also account for why we can't find him  - yet!

Reviewing what we know so far.

The death records and the 1939 Register indicate a birth of circa 1890.
We know he was a pre-war soldier - the presence of the medal ribbon for either the 1911 Delhi Durbar or the 1911 Coronation tells us that. And not every soldier got them - there were roughly 10,000 Dehli Durbar medals issued to members of the British Army and 15,901 Coronation medals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Durbar_Medal_(1911)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal

I may be being cynical but I would be surprised if the lion share of those didn't go to senior officers and ones fast tracked for higher command via the staff college. That of course could be your man, as we know he does go on to be a staff officer.

The presence of holes on the collar where regimental badges were previously affixed could also speak to him being a pre-war regular and an officer at that - one for @FROGSMILE to comment on, please.

So given the year of birth, if he was only an officer, then you'd be looking at him attending Sandhurst circa 1907/08, being commissioned circa 1908/09, at the earliest.
If that is a Delhi Durbar medal then he has to get out to India before December 1911. If it was the 1911 Coronation Medal then he could have been serving anywhere.

If he was a serving officer during that time, then likely he is going to be picked up on one of the 1911 Censuses - most likely the census of England & Wales as that included overseas garrisons. However as the Coronation Medal possibility means he could potentially be stationed anywhere, he may turn up on the Census of Ireland, where British Army officers and men are frequently only shown as initials, or he may have been in transit or stationed remotely as an aide, political agent or the like.

Promotion was most commonly on the basis of time served, so a Second Lieutenant commissioned 1908 might have made it to Lieutenant by the time of the 1911 Census. He would still probably have been considered too young for Staff College even by the time of Britain joining the war.

While the 1914 Star and the 1914/15 Star share the same ribbon, the absence of the rosette would probably indicate the latter. I'm hazy on this so not sure whether any \ all units of the Indian Army arrived too late in France to qualify for the 1914 Star. He could also have been seconded to the newly forming divisions of the Territorial Force and Kitcheners New Army.

We then have an officer who from his medal ribbons is believed to have received the Military Cross and bar, and the Croix de Guerre, as well as a Mention in Despatches. The bar to the Military Cross and the Croix de Guerre could well be post war "peace" awards, although I did check the December 1919 British Army Military List and couldn't find any officer serving on the establishment of the Kings Own Scottish Borderers who came anywhere near that combination.

I wonder if there is any source where its possible to work back - a list of all double MC's winners that also shows other awards like the CdeG for instance. A name or names might then pop up that is worth further investigation.

It has been suggested above that the photo dates from September 1919  - so we'd be look at a man roughly 29 / 30. It's alway going to be subjective, but I'd buy that for the man in the picture.

Finally we have the possibility that he was married at that point, but so far no known marriage.

Hope that's a fair summary.

Cheers,
Peter

[CorporalPunishment]

On 13/06/2023 at 14:23, allyreid67 said:

I also believe he was in KOSB so you may be correct Pete 

I think you should contact the KOSB museum in Berwick and run it by them, there are some very knowledgeable people there. There are a couple of former members of the regiment who are members of the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum and one of them actually works at the museum and he seems to be the sort of bloke who would enjoy finding out anything he could about your man.     Pete.

[IPT]

The 1939 register, mentioned by PRC, gives his birth date as 13/10/1890.

Jack appears to be living on private means in the house of Belgian portrait artis, Ernest Castelein.  Can anyone make sense of Mary Ann and Jaqueline English's later marriages?

(Ancestry)

Edited 15 June , 2023 by IPT

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I think you should contact the KOSB museum in Berwick and run it by them, there are some very knowledgeable people there. There are a couple of former members of the regiment who are members of the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum and one of them actually works at the museum and he seems to be the sort of bloke who would enjoy finding out anything he could about your man.     Pete.

I know that fellow Pete, (name of Hiram I think) and recently exchanged posts with him concerning the wear of frock coats with diced forage caps.  I agree that he would be a useful source of KOSB information.