scottish regiment ?

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Is the fuzzy photo we have actually showing this impressive and historically pure Jacobite CPR "Seton" ring? Such a bold and partisan Charles Edward Stuart connection seems at odds with our subject's given name ......... Augustus .......... as in Prince William Augustus, Duke of Cumberland, commander of the British government forces at Culloden.  I'm pretty sure such an observation would go unnoticed at any serious core Seton family child naming deliberation......or maybe they have just become a rather forgiving, and inclusive, bunch by the mid 19th century?  

By coincidence I was recently watching several films on YouTube about Culloden and one of the points made about both rebellions, the 15 and the 45, is that the Scottish chieftains were notorious for showing loyalty to both sides, via various gestures, simultaneously, whilst at the same time keeping their true intentions masked until it was known which way the wind was blowing.  In some cases they engineered one son to fight on one side and another son to fight on the other, the intent being to protect the clans land holdings.  Your query might well relate to that playbook.

Edited 16 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[IPT]

Probably not the ring, but we do know that there was a legitimate Augustus GW Seton-Burn that was killed in action in 1916.

[TullochArd]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 Your query might well relate to that playbook.

...... I'd say you are spot on there Frogsmile.  I'm so glad I'm distant from such blatantly balancing subterfuge ......... my parents might have considered naming me Rommel.

[TullochArd]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

....... assuming the picture was taken in 1919 versus the need for him to have been serving in the Regular Army in time to qualify for the 1911 Coronation \ Delhi Durbar medal.

Perhaps there is a possibility Peter that he was not Regular Army but one of the not insignificant cohort of those other military/others than military shown as recipients on the attached NA File?

 WO 100. Delhi Durbar 1911: medal rolls of Army in India and memorandum showing... | The National Archives 

I've not delved into this to locate our Burn(s)/Seton Burn(s) but he might show up here in any of the 293 pages of recipients of the Delhi Durbar Medal 1911.

I'm afraid I'll throw a biff chit on this potential lead - I'm off on holiday!

 

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

...... I'd say you are spot on there Frogsmile.  I'm so glad I'm distant from such blatantly balancing subterfuge ......... my parents might have considered naming me Rommel.

Those chieftains were canny men.  They had learned from centuries of previous behaviour (think Robert the Bruce and contemporaries).

Edited 16 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

12 hours ago, TullochArd said:

Is the fuzzy photo we have actually showing this impressive and historically pure Jacobite CPR "Seton" ring? Such a bold and partisan Charles Edward Stuart connection seems at odds with our subject's given name ......... Augustus .......... as in Prince William Augustus, Duke of Cumberland, commander of the British government forces at Culloden.  I'm pretty sure such an observation would go unnoticed at any serious core Seton family child naming deliberation......or maybe they have just become a rather forgiving, and inclusive, bunch by the mid 19th century?  

I have renewed my membership of MyHeritage subscription as wad only on Ancestry .

I have checked dna matches that have Seton in their tree and found a few ! this is one

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

I wonder if it was anything to do with the painter, Ernest Castelein, he possibly owned the house in 45 Lonsdale Road and maybe , after his murder in 45, and after probate, the property was sold and they had to move out. 

I must admit that the coincidental timing is very curious.  Perhaps our subject was involved in the murder (assassination?) of Castelein in some official capacity and then received the support of the security service (MI5), or secret service (MI6) with a new identity.  That is huge speculation and conjecture on my part, and I am not naturally a fan of conspiracy theories, but the hiding away of records for a further 50-years is both, suspicious, and hugely coincidental.  Given the contemporary events of that period, espionage should not be ruled out.  For example, do we know whether or not Ernest Castelein had Russo / communist sympathies, or perhaps been involved in fascism prewar, along similar lines to e.g. Mosley and his acolytes?  Both are potential scenarios where he might have been watched with the connivance of the security service.

Edited 17 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

On 15/06/2023 at 15:39, allyreid67 said:

Ernest Castelein the painter was murdered in 1945 (unsloved) . 

I tried to access the cade through archives but it has been closed for another 50 years...very weird

The mystery of our Majors’ identification seems to be the early part of his life.

So this is utter and total speculation for a muggy Saturday afternoon here in Norwich. It is not intended to impugn the reputation of any of the individuals involved, but simply put a spin on what we know based on contemporary events.

Castelein was gay and liked to pick up good looking young men and take them back to his studio \ house. There may have been a bit of rough stuff involved – as we’ve seen the good Major was up for a fight so may have become the resident muscle for protection. As the recent series on the Peter Tatchell court case shows, there were petty criminals and homophobes who preyed on such gay men in this way, knowing that their victims couldn’t report the assault  \ robbery. It was after one such robbery I believe that the storyline was that Jeremy Thorpe began to groom Peter Tatchell.

Considering where he was living there would be a good chance that Casteleins' pick-ups could have connections to government, armed forces and the civil service. Undoubtedly he would have come to the attention of the police, and through them Special Branch and the Intelligence Services. I believe such surveillance was given to John Maynard Keynes and later Alan Turing and no doubt others who were gay or bi, probably to elicit whether they were a weakness that could be exploited by a foreign power, or an agent of a foreign power.

Castelein probably also moved both in artistic circles and society – some of his most well known works are of society beauties. Having a good looking “war hero” in tow and possibly a model or two wouldn’t have counted against him – or maybe I’ve watched too many Poirot’s

So staging the photo or renaming our Major as Seton-Burn could tie in with that.

Given the circumstances of Casteleins’ death, there is the possibility that this was a pick-up that went wrong (for him). Maybe Castelein took him back to the flat rather than the house, and so the Major wasn’t there to protect the artist. That webpage tells us that the polices main line of investigation, at least in the public domain, was a young American serviceman who hailed a taxi near the flat and who was carrying items similar to those subsequently found to be missing from the studio.

As to why the file is closed for another 50 years:-

a)      The Metropolitan Police didn’t put too much resource into investigating it as he was a “foreign queer who got what was coming to him”.  Witnesses to the pick up earlier in the evening would be unlikely to come forward. When the case came up for review in more enlightened times it could be seen how bad it would look and so the problem was kicked down the road. (I’m not into conspiracy theories either, but I am a big believer, having seen it on numerous occasions in both the public and private sector, of the “cock up and cover up” response of organisations).

b)      Through their connection with him, others may have been deemed to compromise national security. They may also have been suspects in his murder. To open the file would mean revealing who they were and why they were a suspect, and depending on when the file closure was extended, they may still have been operational or have potential for government embarassment. Look at how the establishment closed ranks around Anthony Blunt, John Cairncross and possibly others from the same spy ring that even now have only been hinted at.

c)      The security services may have been using their knowledge of Casteleins pickups to co-erce individuals into being co-operative, particularly if they worked for other governments, or ensure their good behaviour if there was any prospect they might look to cause problems.

d)      The American serviceman was a security asset and senior enough to be worth sparing any embarassment to the US authorities. (Or we even go all James Bond and it was a deadly training exercise, with the American servicemen in a taxi possibly being a false flag to make it look like a homophobic robbery gone wrong).

Variation on those themes. The Major was a security asset put in place to keep an eye on Castelein, and was given the identity change to take up the role. Casteleins flat was an officially sanctioned honey trap and the Major was his handler.

Unfortunately I suspect few of us will be around to find out the real answer, but hopefully it will have a twist that none of us could have seen coming.

Shall we start casting for the movie now - I think we might even have enough material for a mini-series on a streaming service

Cheers.
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, PRC said:

The mystery of our Majors’ identification seems to be the early part of his life.

So this is utter and total speculation for a muggy Saturday afternoon here in Norwich. It is not intended to impugn the reputation of any of the individuals involved, but simply put a spin on what we know based on contemporary events.

Castelein was gay and liked to pick up good looking young men and take them back to his studio \ house. There may have been a bit of rough stuff involved – as we’ve seen the good Major was up for a fight so may have become the resident muscle for protection. As the recent series on the Peter Tatchell court case shows, there were petty criminals and homophobes who preyed on such gay men in this way, knowing that their victims couldn’t report the assault  \ robbery. It was after one such robbery I believe that the storyline was that Jeremy Thorpe began to groom Peter Tatchell.

Considering where he was living there would be a good chance that Casteleins' pick-ups could have connections to government, armed forces and the civil service. Undoubtedly he would have come to the attention of the police, and through them Special Branch and the Intelligence Services. I believe such surveillance was given to John Maynard Keynes and later Alan Turing and no doubt others who were gay or bi, probably to elicit whether they were a weakness that could be exploited by a foreign power, or an agent of a foreign power.

Castelein probably also moved both in artistic circles and society – some of his most well known works are of society beauties. Having a good looking “war hero” in tow and possibly a model or two wouldn’t have counted against him – or maybe I’ve watched too many Poirot’s

So staging the photo or renaming our Major as Seton-Burn could tie in with that.

Given the circumstances of Casteleins’ death, there is the possibility that this was a pick-up that went wrong (for him). Maybe Castelein took him back to the flat rather than the house, and so the Major wasn’t there to protect the artist. That webpage tells us that the polices main line of investigation, at least in the public domain, was a young American serviceman who hailed a taxi near the flat and who was carrying items similar to those subsequently found to be missing from the studio.

As to why the file is closed for another 50 years:-

a)      The Metropolitan Police didn’t put too much resource into investigating it as he was a “foreign queer who got what was coming to him”.  Witnesses to the pick up earlier in the evening would be unlikely to come forward. When the case came up for review in more enlightened times it could be seen how bad it would look and so the problem was kicked down the road. (I’m not into conspiracy theories either, but I am a big believer, having seen it on numerous occasions in both the public and private sector, of the “cock up and cover up” response of organisations).

b)      Through their connection with him, others may have been deemed to compromise national security. They may also have been suspects in his murder. To open the file would mean revealing who they were and why they were a suspect, and depending on when the file closure was extended, they may still have been operational or have potential for government embarassment. Look at how the establishment closed ranks around Anthony Blunt, John Cairncross and possibly others from the same spy ring that even now have only been hinted at.

c)      The security services may have been using their knowledge of Casteleins pickups to co-erce individuals into being co-operative, particularly if they worked for other governments, or ensure their good behaviour if there was any prospect they might look to cause problems.

d)      The American serviceman was a security asset and senior enough to be worth sparing any embarassment to the US authorities. (Or we even go all James Bond and it was a deadly training exercise, with the American servicemen in a taxi possibly being a false flag to make it look like a homophobic robbery gone wrong).

Variation on those themes. The Major was a security asset put in place to keep an eye on Castelein, and was given the identity change to take up the role. Casteleins flat was an officially sanctioned honey trap and the Major was his handler.

Unfortunately I suspect few of us will be around to find out the real answer, but hopefully it will have a twist that none of us could have seen coming.

Shall we start casting for the movie now - I think we might even have enough material for a mini-series on a streaming service

Cheers.
Peter

Those are all excellent and sophisticated theories I think Peter and seem to me entirely within the realm of the possible (not enough evidence, as we’ve agreed, to say ‘likely’).  It’s certainly made for very fertile thoughts here on a hazy, almost Mediterranean like, Saturday afternoon. 

Edited 17 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

50 minutes ago, PRC said:

The mystery of our Majors’ identification seems to be the early part of his life.

So this is utter and total speculation for a muggy Saturday afternoon here in Norwich. It is not intended to impugn the reputation of any of the individuals involved, but simply put a spin on what we know based on contemporary events.

Castelein was gay and liked to pick up good looking young men and take them back to his studio \ house. There may have been a bit of rough stuff involved – as we’ve seen the good Major was up for a fight so may have become the resident muscle for protection. As the recent series on the Peter Tatchell court case shows, there were petty criminals and homophobes who preyed on such gay men in this way, knowing that their victims couldn’t report the assault  \ robbery. It was after one such robbery I believe that the storyline was that Jeremy Thorpe began to groom Peter Tatchell.

Considering where he was living there would be a good chance that Casteleins' pick-ups could have connections to government, armed forces and the civil service. Undoubtedly he would have come to the attention of the police, and through them Special Branch and the Intelligence Services. I believe such surveillance was given to John Maynard Keynes and later Alan Turing and no doubt others who were gay or bi, probably to elicit whether they were a weakness that could be exploited by a foreign power, or an agent of a foreign power.

Castelein probably also moved both in artistic circles and society – some of his most well known works are of society beauties. Having a good looking “war hero” in tow and possibly a model or two wouldn’t have counted against him – or maybe I’ve watched too many Poirot’s

So staging the photo or renaming our Major as Seton-Burn could tie in with that.

Given the circumstances of Casteleins’ death, there is the possibility that this was a pick-up that went wrong (for him). Maybe Castelein took him back to the flat rather than the house, and so the Major wasn’t there to protect the artist. That webpage tells us that the polices main line of investigation, at least in the public domain, was a young American serviceman who hailed a taxi near the flat and who was carrying items similar to those subsequently found to be missing from the studio.

As to why the file is closed for another 50 years:-

a)      The Metropolitan Police didn’t put too much resource into investigating it as he was a “foreign queer who got what was coming to him”.  Witnesses to the pick up earlier in the evening would be unlikely to come forward. When the case came up for review in more enlightened times it could be seen how bad it would look and so the problem was kicked down the road. (I’m not into conspiracy theories either, but I am a big believer, having seen it on numerous occasions in both the public and private sector, of the “cock up and cover up” response of organisations).

b)      Through their connection with him, others may have been deemed to compromise national security. They may also have been suspects in his murder. To open the file would mean revealing who they were and why they were a suspect, and depending on when the file closure was extended, they may still have been operational or have potential for government embarassment. Look at how the establishment closed ranks around Anthony Blunt, John Cairncross and possibly others from the same spy ring that even now have only been hinted at.

c)      The security services may have been using their knowledge of Casteleins pickups to co-erce individuals into being co-operative, particularly if they worked for other governments, or ensure their good behaviour if there was any prospect they might look to cause problems.

d)      The American serviceman was a security asset and senior enough to be worth sparing any embarassment to the US authorities. (Or we even go all James Bond and it was a deadly training exercise, with the American servicemen in a taxi possibly being a false flag to make it look like a homophobic robbery gone wrong).

Variation on those themes. The Major was a security asset put in place to keep an eye on Castelein, and was given the identity change to take up the role. Casteleins flat was an officially sanctioned honey trap and the Major was his handler.

Unfortunately I suspect few of us will be around to find out the real answer, but hopefully it will have a twist that none of us could have seen coming.

Shall we start casting for the movie now - I think we might even have enough material for a mini-series on a streaming service

Cheers.
Peter

Peter, this is all so plausible and I have been thinking along these lines for a while,  especially now that the files have been closed again....will we ever know the truth ? 

[allyreid67]

52 minutes ago, PRC said:

The mystery of our Majors’ identification seems to be the early part of his life.

So this is utter and total speculation for a muggy Saturday afternoon here in Norwich. It is not intended to impugn the reputation of any of the individuals involved, but simply put a spin on what we know based on contemporary events.

Castelein was gay and liked to pick up good looking young men and take them back to his studio \ house. There may have been a bit of rough stuff involved – as we’ve seen the good Major was up for a fight so may have become the resident muscle for protection. As the recent series on the Peter Tatchell court case shows, there were petty criminals and homophobes who preyed on such gay men in this way, knowing that their victims couldn’t report the assault  \ robbery. It was after one such robbery I believe that the storyline was that Jeremy Thorpe began to groom Peter Tatchell.

Considering where he was living there would be a good chance that Casteleins' pick-ups could have connections to government, armed forces and the civil service. Undoubtedly he would have come to the attention of the police, and through them Special Branch and the Intelligence Services. I believe such surveillance was given to John Maynard Keynes and later Alan Turing and no doubt others who were gay or bi, probably to elicit whether they were a weakness that could be exploited by a foreign power, or an agent of a foreign power.

Castelein probably also moved both in artistic circles and society – some of his most well known works are of society beauties. Having a good looking “war hero” in tow and possibly a model or two wouldn’t have counted against him – or maybe I’ve watched too many Poirot’s

So staging the photo or renaming our Major as Seton-Burn could tie in with that.

Given the circumstances of Casteleins’ death, there is the possibility that this was a pick-up that went wrong (for him). Maybe Castelein took him back to the flat rather than the house, and so the Major wasn’t there to protect the artist. That webpage tells us that the polices main line of investigation, at least in the public domain, was a young American serviceman who hailed a taxi near the flat and who was carrying items similar to those subsequently found to be missing from the studio.

As to why the file is closed for another 50 years:-

a)      The Metropolitan Police didn’t put too much resource into investigating it as he was a “foreign queer who got what was coming to him”.  Witnesses to the pick up earlier in the evening would be unlikely to come forward. When the case came up for review in more enlightened times it could be seen how bad it would look and so the problem was kicked down the road. (I’m not into conspiracy theories either, but I am a big believer, having seen it on numerous occasions in both the public and private sector, of the “cock up and cover up” response of organisations).

b)      Through their connection with him, others may have been deemed to compromise national security. They may also have been suspects in his murder. To open the file would mean revealing who they were and why they were a suspect, and depending on when the file closure was extended, they may still have been operational or have potential for government embarassment. Look at how the establishment closed ranks around Anthony Blunt, John Cairncross and possibly others from the same spy ring that even now have only been hinted at.

c)      The security services may have been using their knowledge of Casteleins pickups to co-erce individuals into being co-operative, particularly if they worked for other governments, or ensure their good behaviour if there was any prospect they might look to cause problems.

d)      The American serviceman was a security asset and senior enough to be worth sparing any embarassment to the US authorities. (Or we even go all James Bond and it was a deadly training exercise, with the American servicemen in a taxi possibly being a false flag to make it look like a homophobic robbery gone wrong).

Variation on those themes. The Major was a security asset put in place to keep an eye on Castelein, and was given the identity change to take up the role. Casteleins flat was an officially sanctioned honey trap and the Major was his handler.

Unfortunately I suspect few of us will be around to find out the real answer, but hopefully it will have a twist that none of us could have seen coming.

Shall we start casting for the movie now - I think we might even have enough material for a mini-series on a streaming service

Cheers.
Peter

I might have to run this past my neighbour....he is a film producer 🤣🤣

[TullochArd]

5 hours ago, PRC said:

The mystery of our Majors’ identification seems to be the early part of his life.

Well, isn't this the story that just keeps on giving. 

Could the Brains Trust kindly review the following:

We identified LCpl Augustus George William Burn, Gordon Highlanders (1875-1916) some pages ago and left it that.  His father was Lt Col Augustus George William Burn, Madras Army (1824-1875).  The following link connects the latter, in a manner I cannot precisely fathom, but suspect siblings, to the future LCpl AGW Burn ........ a Mary Alice Seton (1864-1914), Montague Rundall Seton (1866-) and Henry Seton (1868-).

BURN, Augustus George William 1824-1875 | The National Archives

We have here Madras, Burn, Seton connections.  I suspect the early years of our subject may well emerge from somewhere in this branch.  

I cannot help but speculate, this is the GWF after all, that the demise of LCpl AGW Burn in 1916 in some way sparks off our subject's name change that we see post-War having served under another obscure but legitimate name yet to be discovered.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, TullochArd said:

We identified LCpl Augustus George William Burn, Gordon Highlanders (1875-1916) some pages ago and left it that. 

I believe IPT had identified him as a retired Captain Augustus George William Seton-Burn in 1915 when he received a prison sentence. Probably explains why he had to change his name to enlist in the ranks.

On 14/06/2023 at 23:24, IPT said:

He was a retired Captain in 1915 when he was sentenced to 6 months hard labour.  He then seems to have joined the Gordon Highlanders as a 40 year old private and been killed in action. EDIT - Sorry, that was Augustus George William Seton-Burn

When I originally looked for Great War era Officers Long Papers held at the National Archive for the surname Seton-Burn, Augustus George William was the only match that came up. The catalogue entry links him to the Cheshire Regiment as a Captain and relates to the period 1915-1916. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1061835

Similarly with a search of the London Gazette for Augustus Seton Burn. As a "Gentlemen"  Augustus George William Seton-Burn was commissioned in what was then a Militia Battalion, the 3rd Battalion of the Cheshire Regiment, effective 15th May 1905. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27803/page/4112/data.pdf

But a Lieutenant Augustus G.W. Seton-Burn on retired pay, late Pietersburg Light Horse, turns up in the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 4, Janury 1915 receiving a Captaincy in the 11th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment with effect from the 28th November 1914. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29029/supplement/138/data.pdf

According to the Long, Long Trail, the 11th (Reserve) Battalion had only come into being on the 1st November 1914. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/east-surrey-regiment/

On 15/06/2023 at 00:03, Tawhiri said:

He was also apparently bankrupted in 1906 as George Seton Burn.

So that may have been the reason for the end of his militia career. FMP are showing a newspaper report in the Morning Leader dated 1st December 1906, but I couldn't find the equivalent in the London Gazette.

FMP\BNA have some newspapers reports on his convictions in July 1915 - unfortunately I can't see the fuller articles.

Image courtesy FindMyPast

So while his death in 1916 would open up the way for parts of his name to be used as the basis for a ficticious ID, it would also be a fake persona that already had a record as a felon.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit - The Pietersburg Light Horse, formerly known as the Bush Veldt Carbineers, received notority as the unit of Breaker Morant. He and two others were court-martialled and were found guilty of the summary execution of prisoners during the Anglo-Boer War. One of the officers of the unit was a Lieutenant A. G. W. Seton-Burn. https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=305

Edited 17 June , 2023 by PRC

[TullochArd]

14 hours ago, PRC said:

I believe IPT had identified him as a retired Captain Augustus George William Seton-Burn in 1915 when he received a prison sentence. Probably explains why he had to change his name to enlist in the ranks.

When I originally looked for Great War era Officers Long Papers held at the National Archive for the surname Seton-Burn, Augustus George William was the only match that came up. The catalogue entry links him to the Cheshire Regiment as a Captain and relates to the period 1915-1916. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1061835

Similarly with a search of the London Gazette for Augustus Seton Burn. As a "Gentlemen"  Augustus George William Seton-Burn was commissioned in what was then a Militia Battalion, the 3rd Battalion of the Cheshire Regiment, effective 15th May 1905. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27803/page/4112/data.pdf

But a Lieutenant Augustus G.W. Seton-Burn on retired pay, late Pietersburg Light Horse, turns up in the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 4, Janury 1915 receiving a Captaincy in the 11th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment with effect from the 28th November 1914. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29029/supplement/138/data.pdf

...... the temporary rank being relinquished 22 Apr 15  Page 3921 | Supplement 29137, 20 April 1915 | London Gazette | The Gazette

According to the Long, Long Trail, the 11th (Reserve) Battalion had only come into being on the 1st November 1914. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/east-surrey-regiment/

So that may have been the reason for the end of his militia career. FMP are showing a newspaper report in the Morning Leader dated 1st December 1906, but I couldn't find the equivalent in the London Gazette.

FMP\BNA have some newspapers reports on his convictions in July 1915 - unfortunately I can't see the fuller articles.

Image courtesy FindMyPast

So while his death in 1916 would open up the way for parts of his name to be used as the basis for a ficticious ID, it would also be a fake persona that already had a record as a felon.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit - The Pietersburg Light Horse, formerly known as the Bush Veldt Carbineers, received notority as the unit of Breaker Morant. He and two others were court-martialled and were found guilty of the summary execution of prisoners during the Anglo-Boer War. One of the officers of the unit was a Lieutenant A. G. W. Seton-Burn. https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=305

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

Edit - The Pietersburg Light Horse, formerly known as the Bush Veldt Carbineers, received notority as the unit of Breaker Morant. He and two others were court-martialled and were found guilty of the summary execution of prisoners during the Anglo-Boer War. One of the officers of the unit was a Lieutenant A. G. W. Seton-Burn. https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=305

I’m absolutely stunned by this development, Peter, and it begs lots more questions given the notorious nature of that unit.

[IPT]

Odd little 1915 snippet from the awful South African archives;

         " CONVICTION OF LIEUTENANT AG SETON-BURN, LATE PIETERSBURG LIGHT        
           HORSE, IN ENGLAND FOR OBTAINING MONEY BY FALSE PRETENCES. STATE      
           THAT THERE IS NO RECORD OF ANY SUCH UNIT AS THE PIETERSBURG LIGHT    
           HORSE, AND THAT NO SUCH INDIVIDUAL IS IN RECEIPT OF RETIRED PAY OF   
           PENSION OF ANY KIND FROM UNION FUNDS. "

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, IPT said:

Odd little 1915 snippet from the awful South African archives;

         " CONVICTION OF LIEUTENANT AG SETON-BURN, LATE PIETERSBURG LIGHT        
           HORSE, IN ENGLAND FOR OBTAINING MONEY BY FALSE PRETENCES. STATE      
           THAT THERE IS NO RECORD OF ANY SUCH UNIT AS THE PIETERSBURG LIGHT    
           HORSE, AND THAT NO SUCH INDIVIDUAL IS IN RECEIPT OF RETIRED PAY OF   
           PENSION OF ANY KIND FROM UNION FUNDS. "

Given Lieutenant Seton-Burn’s seeming notoriety, I wonder if there are any press photos of him that might be compared with this threads opening image of the GSO2 (who has no South African campaign ribbons).

The potential link, if verified, would go some way to explaining the shyness of our subject.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Snippets from the Anglo-Boer War website.

The Bush Veldt Carbineers were raised in Pretoria in February 1901 and did useful work in the difficult country north of Pietersburg in that year. They saw a lot of fighting, but it gained an unfortunate notoriety by the conviction of Morant, Handcock and Witton on charges that they had committed acts not in accordance with the rules of civilised warfare.

The Bush Veldt Carbineers were renamed to the Pietersburg Light Horse on 1 December 1901. The unit was employed in the extreme north of the Transvaal — officially designated as 'the wildest part' of that country.

Medals to the Bush Veldt Carbineers and Pietersburg Light House

With the change in unit name, some confusion arose as to how the medals should be named. Medals can be found named top both units. As many of the Bush Veldt Carbineers and Pietersburg Light Horse had served in other units, medals to these two units are rare. Only 57 medals were issued named to the Bush Veldt Carbineers or Pietersburg Light Horse.

The Anglo-Boer Website also has the edition of the London Gazette dated July 29, 1902. It contains Lord Kitcheners Despatch dated 23rd June 1902. It ends in a long list of names by unit, including on page 4856 a unit that apparently there was subsequently no record of

Image courtesy https://www.angloboerwar.com/images/pdf/LG19020729wf.pdf

However may all be a distraction from the main search, interesting though it is.

Cheers,
Peter

[Tawhiri]

15 hours ago, PRC said:

FMP are showing a newspaper report in the Morning Leader dated 1st December 1906, but I couldn't find the equivalent in the London Gazette.

Although he was bankrupted in December 1906, the notice didn't appear in the Gazette until 1 January 1907. His address at the time was 84 Charing Cross Road, London.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27982/page/84

[PRC]

This is getting more and more bizarre - wonder if it was a bookshop then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/84,_Charing_Cross_Road

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Tawhiri]

And in the 1911 England and Wales census he is a visitor in the household of Rogers Lyons Cowper-Coles, a retired Army Captain, in Fulham, London. Augustus' occupation is also given as retired Army Captain, and he is single.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLZ-LK4

He and his family can also be found in the 1881 and 1891 censuses quite easily. In 1881 he is living with his widowed mother and several older siblings in East Budleigh, Devon, while in 1891 he is living in the household of his older sister in Heston, Middlesex, with two other older siblings, and three cousins who were all born in Burma. Not surprisingly, there is no trace of him in the 1901 census.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q276-GNZ3

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QDHM-CN2

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

This is getting more and more bizarre - wonder if it was a bookshop then

That explains why I was wondering why that address sounded so familiar .

 

[Tawhiri]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

So that may have been the reason for the end of his militia career.

According to the Gazette he was removed from his position on 10 February 1906 on account of his ill-health, so it predates his bankruptcy at the end of the year by 10 months. It does leave you wondering though whether it was it a face-saving measure, or genuine?

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27884/page/953

[pierssc]

AGW Seton Burn

Illustrated London News, June 10, 1916.

Courtesy British Newspaper Archive

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, pierssc said:

AGW Seton Burn

Illustrated London News, June 10, 1916.

Courtesy British Newspaper Archive

 

 

 

Nicely put-to-bed piers.  It’s definitely not the same man shown in this thread’s opening photo.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Nicely put-to-bed piers.  It’s definitely not the same man shown in this thread’s opening photo.

Could he be a relative?  For once the portraits are at a very similar angle....