scottish regiment ?

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Could he be a relative?  For once the portraits are at a very similar angle....

The jawline seems quite similar, so I don’t think that is impossible.  It would require examining the family tree and establishing which siblings served.  I note that his father didn’t add the Seton and I’m puzzled as to why not.  I don’t have the stamina of the forum’s premier genealogical detectives and I’m starting to lose the will to live with this seemingly intractable mystery.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The jawline seems quite similar, so I don’t think that is impossible.  It would require examining the family tree and establishing which siblings served.  I note that his father didn’t add the Seton and I’m puzzled as to why not.  I don’t have the stamina of the forum’s premier genealogical detectives and I’m starting to lose the will to live with this seemingly intractable mystery.

yes a similar jawline.

Some people had the Seton in their name and some just had Burn, I just don't know where the Burn came from ?

[pierssc]

Daily News, 17 July 1915 (British Newspaper Archive)

"Accused, a man of soldierly bearing, stated that he had a brother who was a colonel on the staff."

 

 

Edited 18 June , 2023 by pierssc
Attribution

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Daily News, 17 July 1915 (British Newspaper Archive)

"Accused, a man of soldierly bearing, stated that he had a brother who was a colonel on the staff."

 

 

That’s a fantastic clue and I’m hoping it might be a breakthrough.  I’m wondering if the OP’s grandfather might have been the ex felon but used his brother’s identity and photograph subsequently…

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Could he be a relative?  For once the portraits are at a very similar angle....

Not really seeing it myself but in case it helps others come to a conclusion.....

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

[allyreid67]

1 minute ago, PRC said:

Not really seeing it myself but in case it helps others come to a conclusion.....

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

could be a cousin still I guess ?

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not really seeing it myself but in case it helps others come to a conclusion.....

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

I agree Peter, that view is very helpful.  At best I can only say a broad similarity to the angular shape of the jawline.  Certainly doesn’t look like a brother.  It was all getting a bit exciting for a moment there…

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

Just now, PRC said:

Not really seeing it myself but in case it helps others come to a conclusion.....

 

It isn't jumping out at me, I must say.

But if the original subject was born c1890, and if AGW S-B was in the South African War, then if they were brothers there would be some years gap between them.

Trying to see what I can make out of the mysterious Colonel AGW Burn of Madras....

 

[allyreid67]

5 minutes ago, pierssc said:

It isn't jumping out at me, I must say.

But if the original subject was born c1890, and if AGW S-B was in the South African War, then if they were brothers there would be some years gap between them.

Trying to see what I can make out of the mysterious Colonel AGW Burn of Madras....

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, pierssc said:

It isn't jumping out at me, I must say.

But if the original subject was born c1890, and if AGW S-B was in the South African War, then if they were brothers there would be some years gap between them.

Trying to see what I can make out of the mysterious Colonel AGW Burn of Madras....

 

I suppose there might have been two different mothers as one explanation.  Mortality of women was high, especially in India, and in connection with childbirth too.  Paternal names will be the same, but facial features perhaps more different than my first expectation.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

Colonel Augustus George William Burn and his family are the subjects of a pretty impressive-looking family tree on Ancestry ("Burn Family Tree" - found quickly by searching "Seton-Burn")

Born 10 March 1824 Cullompton, Devon

Died 1st March 1875 at Mercara, Madras

His son Augustus George William Burn (who appears to be the man killied in 1916) was born 12 February 1875 in India.

It looks very unlikely that our man is one of his sons but the Colonel had numerous  [Edit] a brothers and other children, starting in 1856, so he may be a cousin.  I'll have to read further.

No indication of where and when the Seton appeared though.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by pierssc

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Colonel Augustus George William Burn and his family are the subjects of a pretty impressive-looking family tree on Ancestry ("Burn Family Tree" - found quickly by searching "Seton-Burn")

Born 10 March 1824 Cullompton, Devon

Died 1st March 1875 at Mercara, Madras

His son Augustus George William Burn (who appears to be the man killied in 1916) was born 12 February 1875 in India.

It looks very unlikely that our man is one of his sons but the Colonel had numerous brothers and other children, starting in 1856, so he may be a cousin.  I'll have to read further.

No indication of where and when the Seton appeared though.

The Seton aspect is ostensibly a link between these different strands, but its lack of consistent application between the various family branches is extremely perplexing (and probably misleading to boot).

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[pierssc]

Colonel Burn had a brother, William Hewitt Seton Burn, b.1815, d.1878, also had an India connection though born and died Devon.  The "Hewitt" was his mother's maiden name.  He had 5 daughters and one son, William Frank Seton Burn, born 1863 in Singapore but no further information which suggests he may have died unmarried.

I must say I also wonder whether there's a something odd here.  Obviously a big family, conveniently out of the country and hard to trace...

Nothing in the tree to support AGW Seton Burn's claim to have had a brother on the Staff - assuming of course that he is the same AGW as the one in the 1915 newspaper report.

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, pierssc said:

Trying to see what I can make out of the mysterious Colonel AGW Burn of Madras....

The following link connects the Madras Col AGW Burn to our Capt/LCpl AGW Burn.  It initiates a clear Seton link (somehow) with Mary Alice Seton (1864-1914), Montague Rundall Seton (1866-) and Henry Seton (1868-) appearing in parallel with Capt/LCpl AGW Burn.

BURN, Augustus George William 1824-1875 | The National Archives

Edited 18 June , 2023 by TullochArd

[allyreid67]

28 minutes ago, pierssc said:

Colonel Burn had a brother, William Hewitt Seton Burn, b.1815, d.1878, also had an India connection though born and died Devon.  The "Hewitt" was his mother's maiden name.  He had 5 daughters and one son, William Frank Seton Burn, born 1863 in Singapore but no further information which suggests he may have died unmarried.

I must say I also wonder whether there's a something odd here.  Obviously a big family, conveniently out of the country and hard to trace...

Nothing in the tree to support AGW Seton Burn's claim to have had a brother on the Staff - assuming of course that he is the same AGW as the one in the 1915 newspaper report.

 

[TullochArd]

20 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

 

 

Fascinating.  "Rimington's Guides (also known as Rimington's Tigers or Rimington's Corps of Guides and then later as Damant's Horse) were a unit of light horse in the British Army active in the Second Boer War."  "G." perhaps tallies with his recorded preference for George as noted in the 1906 LG bankruptcy notice highlighted by Tawiri "Seton-Burn, Augustus George William (described in the Receiving Order as George Seton Burn)"  His SA medals are impressed "Lt" and "Bushveldt Carbineers" giving no indication of this prior service.  Interesting to note that commissioning into such curious units was relatively informal ...... George Witton notes in "Scapegoats of the Empire" he was told by the CO "if I could raise a detachment of men he would give me command"  Capt/LCpl AGW could clearly "talked the talk" and fits the bill.  No mention of Captain in SA War found so far.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

With regards to the possible Kings Own Scottish Borderers connection - I have received the following from Hiram at the regimental museum:

“I have had a quick look at the name Seton-Burn in Capt Gillian's Book KOSB in the Great War nothing mentioned, I am down at the Museum again this Thursday so I will be able to do some research on the data base as see what pops up.”

Edited 18 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

11 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

No mention of Captain in SA War found so far.

No, but there is this from the Army and Navy Gazette of 2 June 1900 courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

... G. Petersen, L. G. Williams, 52 E. N. Macdonald, S. Saunders, reported missing, are prisoners. Rimington’s Scouts.—Cpl. Seton Burn, reported missing at Sanna’s Post, Mar. 31, is an unwounded prisoner at Pretoria. . . _ , B S.A. Police. —Christian ...

Apologies, cross-posted.

Edited 18 June , 2023 by Tawhiri

[TullochArd]

On 18/06/2023 at 19:25, Tawhiri said:

No, but there is this from the Army and Navy Gazette of 2 June 1900 courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive.

... G. Petersen, L. G. Williams, 52 E. N. Macdonald, S. Saunders, reported missing, are prisoners. Rimington’s Scouts.—Cpl. Seton Burn, reported missing at Sanna’s Post, Mar. 31, is an unwounded prisoner at Pretoria. . . _ , B S.A. Police. —Christian ...

Sorry Tawhiri I perhaps wasn't too clear there.  Although his SA War medals clearly indicate the later rank of Lieutenant I have yet to find mention of AGWS-B as a Captain Bushveldt Carbineers/Pietersburg LH during the SA War as is later indicated in the LG.  This cutting now confuses me further.  If he is a Cpl and taken unwounded prisoner in Mar 1900* how does he get commissioned into the Bushveldt Carbineers/Pietersburg LH and have his medal entitlement impressed "Lt" and "Bushveldt Carbineers"?

* Additional Info 19 Jun 23. Source: South African Field Force Casualty Roll reports AGW S-B as "released"

Edited 19 June , 2023 by TullochArd
Source: South African Field Force Casualty Roll

[Tawhiri]

15 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

Although his SA War medals clearly indicate the later rank of Lieutenant I have yet to find mention of AGWS-B as a Captain Bushveldt Carbineers/Pietersburg LH during the SA War as is later indicated in the LG.

[pierssc]

21 hours ago, TullochArd said:

 Although his SA War medals clearly indicate the later rank of Lieutenant I have yet to find mention of AGWS-B as a Captain Bushveldt Carbineers/Pietersburg LH during the SA War as is later indicated in the LG.  This cutting now confuses me further.  If he is a Cpl and taken unwounded prisoner in Mar 1900 how does he get commissioned into the Bushveldt Carbineers/Pietersburg LH and have his medal entitlement impressed "Lt" and "Bushveldt Carbineers"?

Now that's interesting, because AGW's Boer War Medals appear to have come up for sale in 1997 and they are described as being inscribed to "Captain" A.G.W Seton-Burn.  The QSA medal had 8 clasps! 

https://www.angloboerwar.com/forum/5-medals-and-awards/1230-medals-to-the-pietersburg-light-horse?start=6

(See the first entry on the page).

The value was estimated at £120-150 to which the writer of the post added an exclamation mark.  I suspect that this was because he thought it was low - but I wonder if it was because the auctioneers thought it was suspect!

I think it is time for me to emerge from the rabbit hole.  I can't see any leads that connect the particular Burn family to the Staff Major who is actually the subject of the thread.  As a family they were based in India for many years and had a strong military background.  It had several branches and the "Seton" name emerges from time to time, officially and otherwise.  It seems to be possible to follow the career of A.G.W Burn (b.1875) who served in South Africa, a carrer which ultimately went sour due to drink and fraud.  In his 1915 trial for passing dud cheques (for which he went to prison for a month) he referred to having a brother on the Staff who would have seen him right.  However AGW was the youngest son of his parents, born after his father's death, and I haven't managed to find any likely military references to his brothers whose ages rule them out from being the person in the original photo.

I have tried various combinations of the names we have been given for the chap in the photo but no luck there.  I have searched a website listing recipients of the MC, checking for those with Bars - no candidates who stood out (I don't know how comprehensive it is).

I find it fairly odd that we should have a staff Major, with an MC and Bar, who can't be picked up by a relatively unusual name prior to the 1920s by searches of the London Gazette, British Newspaper Archives, Ancestry, and Google.  The earliest possible reference I could find was the Bath Chronicle, 9th August 1924 listing visitors to Bath - "Major Seton Burn (London)" was staying at the Empire Hotel.  I'm fairly convinced that whatever name he served under in WW1, it wasn't the one he subsequently lived under.  In fact, I wonder whether it was A.G.W. S-B's statement in Court that he had a brother on the Staff, who provided the possible alias? 

Like Peter I wonder whether the mystery Major was involved professionally in some activity which meant that he had to "disappear" after the war.  The case of Reginald Teague-Jones/Ronald Sinclair comes to mind - being suspected of involvement in the killing of the 26 Baku Commissars during the Russian Civil War meant that he had to live the rest of his life under another name.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Teague-Jones    Or could there have been people in Ireland who might be anxious to find him?

I'm afraid I don't think this takes the original question much further forward.  Ally may have to look for further DNA matches!

[IPT]

1 hour ago, pierssc said:

Ally may have to look for further DNA matches!

I think this might be the only way out of this impasse now.  We're almost certainly looking for a surname that has nothing to do with Seton or Burn.

[allyreid67]

2 hours ago, pierssc said:

Now that's interesting, because AGW's Boer War Medals appear to have come up for sale in 1997 and they are described as being inscribed to "Captain" A.G.W Seton-Burn.  The QSA medal had 8 clasps! 

https://www.angloboerwar.com/forum/5-medals-and-awards/1230-medals-to-the-pietersburg-light-horse?start=6

(See the first entry on the page).

The value was estimated at £120-150 to which the writer of the post added an exclamation mark.  I suspect that this was because he thought it was low - but I wonder if it was because the auctioneers thought it was suspect!

I think it is time for me to emerge from the rabbit hole.  I can't see any leads that connect the particular Burn family to the Staff Major who is actually the subject of the thread.  As a family they were based in India for many years and had a strong military background.  It had several branches and the "Seton" name emerges from time to time, officially and otherwise.  It seems to be possible to follow the career of A.G.W Burn (b.1875) who served in South Africa, a carrer which ultimately went sour due to drink and fraud.  In his 1915 trial for passing dud cheques (for which he went to prison for a month) he referred to having a brother on the Staff who would have seen him right.  However AGW was the youngest son of his parents, born after his father's death, and I haven't managed to find any likely military references to his brothers whose ages rule them out from being the person in the original photo.

I have tried various combinations of the names we have been given for the chap in the photo but no luck there.  I have searched a website listing recipients of the MC, checking for those with Bars - no candidates who stood out (I don't know how comprehensive it is).

I find it fairly odd that we should have a staff Major, with an MC and Bar, who can't be picked up by a relatively unusual name prior to the 1920s by searches of the London Gazette, British Newspaper Archives, Ancestry, and Google.  The earliest possible reference I could find was the Bath Chronicle, 9th August 1924 listing visitors to Bath - "Major Seton Burn (London)" was staying at the Empire Hotel.  I'm fairly convinced that whatever name he served under in WW1, it wasn't the one he subsequently lived under.  In fact, I wonder whether it was A.G.W. S-B's statement in Court that he had a brother on the Staff, who provided the possible alias? 

Like Peter I wonder whether the mystery Major was involved professionally in some activity which meant that he had to "disappear" after the war.  The case of Reginald Teague-Jones/Ronald Sinclair comes to mind - being suspected of involvement in the killing of the 26 Baku Commissars during the Russian Civil War meant that he had to live the rest of his life under another name.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Teague-Jones    Or could there have been people in Ireland who might be anxious to find him?

I'm afraid I don't think this takes the original question much further forward.  Ally may have to look for further DNA matches!

thank you Piers, you and everyone else have worked so hard on this mystery, but I doubt we will ever know the truth here. I am now convinced that he was a secret agent of some sort and that he changed his name.

I will go back to my newly found uncle and let him know our findings/possible theories.

Maybe the reason the Castelein murder case is still closed is because there are 2 of Seton-Burn's known children still alive who were living with him up until 1949.

but I can say it has been the most interesting week for me on this forum.

I will do some more DNA research and see what I can come up with 🤞 

[PRC]

@allyreid67

Looks like it's going to take some good old fashioned family tree mapping joining up the linkages between all the DNA matches to try and work out where there is a Major sized gap. Even if the man himself was illegitimate and not acknowledged by the biological father \ fathers family, thus not turning up in the civil records with a name we would recognise, it may prove possible to identify the whereabouts of the birth mother circa 1890.

I wish you luck in your search and hope you have cause soon to update us - particularly if you can let the bloodhounds of the forum loose on his actual name!

Cheers,
Peter

[pierssc]

On 16/06/2023 at 23:37, TullochArd said:

 WO 100. Delhi Durbar 1911: medal rolls of Army in India and memorandum showing... | The National Archives 

I've not delved into this to locate our Burn(s)/Seton Burn(s) but he might show up here in any of the 293 pages of recipients of the Delhi Durbar Medal 1911.

For what it's worth, I looked at the awards of the medal to 1st Bn KOSB and found a Lieutenant (with a completely different name, but a very distinctive set of initials) who I checked out in the London Gazette in case.  He's not our man as he's well documented up to at least WW2 and had a DSO but no MC.  I won't mention his name lest it cause confusion on the thread.  I haven't looked for Burns/Seton-Burns for reasons already mentioned.

EDIT: He's not the KOSB 2nd Lieutenant on the list either.  I initially ignored him because he had resigned his commission.  Turns out he simply switched regiments.  Despite turning out to have the middle name "Seton" (!) he's well enough documented to clearly not be S-B.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by pierssc