scottish regiment ?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

We know from the death announcement in The Times that he was known as "Jack", so that stacks up.

For those of us without Ancestry and to keep the information all in one place, can you date those electoral register entries and the newspaper report. From an earlier posting I believe you said the earliest you could find him was 1923, so it would be particulalrly good to know what he was calling himself at the time.

As an officer he had to apply for his Great War service medals, so the absence of a likely Medal Index Card calls into question whether the man in the photo is who you think it is. But serving under some other variation of those names would also account for why we can't find him  - yet!

Reviewing what we know so far.

The death records and the 1939 Register indicate a birth of circa 1890.
We know he was a pre-war soldier - the presence of the medal ribbon for either the 1911 Delhi Durbar or the 1911 Coronation tells us that. And not every soldier got them - there were roughly 10,000 Dehli Durbar medals issued to members of the British Army and 15,901 Coronation medals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Durbar_Medal_(1911)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal

I may be being cynical but I would be surprised if the lion share of those didn't go to senior officers and ones fast tracked for higher command via the staff college. That of course could be your man, as we know he does go on to be a staff officer.

The presence of holes on the collar where regimental badges were previously affixed could also speak to him being a pre-war regular and an officer at that - one for @FROGSMILE to comment on, please.

So given the year of birth, if he was only an officer, then you'd be looking at him attending Sandhurst circa 1907/08, being commissioned circa 1908/09, at the earliest.
If that is a Delhi Durbar medal then he has to get out to India before December 1911. If it was the 1911 Coronation Medal then he could have been serving anywhere.

If he was a serving officer during that time, then likely he is going to be picked up on one of the 1911 Censuses - most likely the census of England & Wales as that included overseas garrisons. However as the Coronation Medal possibility means he could potentially be stationed anywhere, he may turn up on the Census of Ireland, where British Army officers and men are frequently only shown as initials, or he may have been in transit or stationed remotely as an aide, political agent or the like.

Promotion was most commonly on the basis of time served, so a Second Lieutenant commissioned 1908 might have made it to Lieutenant by the time of the 1911 Census. He would still probably have been considered too young for Staff College even by the time of Britain joining the war.

While the 1914 Star and the 1914/15 Star share the same ribbon, the absence of the rosette would probably indicate the latter. I'm hazy on this so not sure whether any \ all units of the Indian Army arrived too late in France to qualify for the 1914 Star. He could also have been seconded to the newly forming divisions of the Territorial Force and Kitcheners New Army.

We then have an officer who from his medal ribbons is believed to have received the Military Cross and bar, and the Croix de Guerre, as well as a Mention in Despatches. The bar to the Military Cross and the Croix de Guerre could well be post war "peace" awards, although I did check the December 1919 British Army Military List and couldn't find any officer serving on the establishment of the Kings Own Scottish Borderers who came anywhere near that combination.

I wonder if there is any source where its possible to work back - a list of all double MC's winners that also shows other awards like the CdeG for instance. A name or names might then pop up that is worth further investigation.

It has been suggested above that the photo dates from September 1919  - so we'd be look at a man roughly 29 / 30. It's alway going to be subjective, but I'd buy that for the man in the picture.

Finally we have the possibility that he was married at that point, but so far no known marriage.

Hope that's a fair summary.

Cheers,
Peter

In answer to your question the holes for collar badges certainly imply previous use of the jacket at regimental duty, but we don’t know for sure if the officer wearing it was its owner back then.  If the fellow in the photo was KOSB (and we don’t know that for certain yet) then at regimental duty he would have worn the Scottish pattern jacket with its cutaway front and rank on the discrete, ‘gauntlet style’ cuffs.  Thus he would have needed to purchase / obtain a standard pattern jacket when appointed to the staff.

The officer was relatively young for a major and would likely owe his accelerated promotion to the war and its associated attrition rate for officers.  It’s unlikely that he would have been a staff officer when the war began in 1914, so I think we should be looking for an officer who was at regimental duty early in the war, but then moved on to the staff.  Once there it was quite unusual to return to regimental duty unless promoted and selected for command of a battalion.

NB. Quite a lot of officers owe their survival to having become staff officers and never returning to the trenches (I think Sassoon refers rather disparagingly to “scarlet majors at the base” in his poem Base Details). 

Edited 15 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mancpal]

Could ‘ForeignGong’ shed any light on the CdG I wonder? Not sure how to alert him to the thread though.

Simon

[PRC]

There is a distinct possibility the KOSB is a red herring - or at least under the name we've been given so far.

Of course if the Museum has the same or similar picture and the sitter has been identified then may move the search forward.

Here's a link to the August 1914 British Army Monthly List for the Regular Army Battalions of the KOSB. Given that at best he was 24 he'd be unlikely to then be staff or indeed higher than a Lieutenant. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/103631606

Going through the Lieutenants and Second Lieutenants with the initials A.J, J.A., A.G., G.A., G, J and A:-
Lieutenant A.J. Sanderson, 1st Battalion. MiC shows a Captain A.J. Sanderson KOSB who landed Gallipoli April 1915 and died of wounds 6th May 1915. CWGC records him as Archibald James Sanderson, 1st Battalion.
Lieutenant A.G. Paterson, 1st Battalion. MiC shows Lieutenant Adrian Gordon Paterson, subsequently Captain and Temporary Major Machine Gun Corps. He landed Gallipoli 29/04/1915 and received the M.C. and D.S.O.
Lieutenant J. A. Ainslie, 1st Battalion. MiC shows Second Lieutenant Jonathan Archibald Ainslie KOSB, reached rank of Captain, deceased. CWGC has him died with the 2nd Battalion, 19th May 1917.
Honorary Captain and Quartermaster A. Murray, 2nd Battalion. MiC shows Captain A. Murray KOSB, landed 15th August 1914, died 13th September 1914. CWGC as Archibald Murray.

So not really any alternative candidates there. If he was KOSB than any change of name was fairly fundamental.

Cheers,
Peter

[allyreid67]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

We know from the death announcement in The Times that he was known as "Jack", so that stacks up.

For those of us without Ancestry and to keep the information all in one place, can you date those electoral register entries and the newspaper report. From an earlier posting I believe you said the earliest you could find him was 1923, so it would be particulalrly good to know what he was calling himself at the time.

As an officer he had to apply for his Great War service medals, so the absence of a likely Medal Index Card calls into question whether the man in the photo is who you think it is. But serving under some other variation of those names would also account for why we can't find him  - yet!

Reviewing what we know so far.

The death records and the 1939 Register indicate a birth of circa 1890.
We know he was a pre-war soldier - the presence of the medal ribbon for either the 1911 Delhi Durbar or the 1911 Coronation tells us that. And not every soldier got them - there were roughly 10,000 Dehli Durbar medals issued to members of the British Army and 15,901 Coronation medals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Durbar_Medal_(1911)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Coronation_Medal

I may be being cynical but I would be surprised if the lion share of those didn't go to senior officers and ones fast tracked for higher command via the staff college. That of course could be your man, as we know he does go on to be a staff officer.

The presence of holes on the collar where regimental badges were previously affixed could also speak to him being a pre-war regular and an officer at that - one for @FROGSMILE to comment on, please.

So given the year of birth, if he was only an officer, then you'd be looking at him attending Sandhurst circa 1907/08, being commissioned circa 1908/09, at the earliest.
If that is a Delhi Durbar medal then he has to get out to India before December 1911. If it was the 1911 Coronation Medal then he could have been serving anywhere.

If he was a serving officer during that time, then likely he is going to be picked up on one of the 1911 Censuses - most likely the census of England & Wales as that included overseas garrisons. However as the Coronation Medal possibility means he could potentially be stationed anywhere, he may turn up on the Census of Ireland, where British Army officers and men are frequently only shown as initials, or he may have been in transit or stationed remotely as an aide, political agent or the like.

Promotion was most commonly on the basis of time served, so a Second Lieutenant commissioned 1908 might have made it to Lieutenant by the time of the 1911 Census. He would still probably have been considered too young for Staff College even by the time of Britain joining the war.

While the 1914 Star and the 1914/15 Star share the same ribbon, the absence of the rosette would probably indicate the latter. I'm hazy on this so not sure whether any \ all units of the Indian Army arrived too late in France to qualify for the 1914 Star. He could also have been seconded to the newly forming divisions of the Territorial Force and Kitcheners New Army.

We then have an officer who from his medal ribbons is believed to have received the Military Cross and bar, and the Croix de Guerre, as well as a Mention in Despatches. The bar to the Military Cross and the Croix de Guerre could well be post war "peace" awards, although I did check the December 1919 British Army Military List and couldn't find any officer serving on the establishment of the Kings Own Scottish Borderers who came anywhere near that combination.

I wonder if there is any source where its possible to work back - a list of all double MC's winners that also shows other awards like the CdeG for instance. A name or names might then pop up that is worth further investigation.

It has been suggested above that the photo dates from September 1919  - so we'd be look at a man roughly 29 / 30. It's alway going to be subjective, but I'd buy that for the man in the picture.

Finally we have the possibility that he was married at that point, but so far no known marriage.

Hope that's a fair summary.

Cheers,
Peter

the first electoral register I can find is 1926., l at 40 Clareville Steet, listed as follows:

1926 - BURN, SETON (MAJOR)

1929 - JOHN AUGUSTUS BURN

1930 -1933 -JOHN AUGUSTUS SETON-BURN 

the newspaper article is feom 1932

[allyreid67]

42 minutes ago, IPT said:

The 1939 register, mentioned by PRC, gives his birth date as 13/10/1890.

Jack appears to be living on private means in the house of Belgian portrait artis, Ernest Castelein.  Can anyone make sense of Mary Ann and Jaqueline English's later marriages?

(Ancestry)

Mary Ann (maiden name English) is the mother of Jaqueline, and Augustus is the father of Jaqueline,  Mary Ann later married Willliam Townsend .

Ernest Castelein the painter was murdered in 1945 (unsloved) . 

I tried to access the cade through archives but it has been closed for another 50 years...very weird 😕 

[allyreid67]

8 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

Mary Ann (maiden name English) is the mother of Jaqueline, and Augustus is the father of Jaqueline,  Mary Ann later married Willliam Townsend .

Ernest Castelein the painter was murdered in 1945 (unsloved) . 

I tried to access the cade through archives but it has been closed for another 50 years...very weird 😕 

http://www.unsolved-murders.co.uk/murder-content.php?key=535&termRef=Ernest Marie Felex Castelein

[IPT]

There is an Ancestry family tree which is probably the work of OP's newfound relatives.

This gives Jack two children, Stella Delores Hanlon, (1921-1924) , and Alan Stuart Seton Reid/Hanlon (b1925).  A wife is named as Janet Annie Stella Hanlon (1900-1992).

FreeBMD has;

 

At the time of the 1921 census, Janet was living in Chorlton and would have been pregnant with Stella.

 

The Reid element might come from this later 1931 marriage to Joe Reid;

 

 

[allyreid67]

1 minute ago, IPT said:

There is an Ancestry family tree which is probably the work of OP's newfound relatives.

This gives Jack two children, Stella Delores Hanlon, (1921-1924) , and Alan Stuart Seton Reid/Hanlon (b1925).  A wife is named as Janet Annie Stella Hanlon (1900-1992).

FreeBMD has;

 

At the time of the 1921 census, Janet was living in Chorlton and would have been pregnant with Stella.

 

The Reid element might come from this later 1931 marriage to Joe Reid;

 

 

that is my family tree.

Alan Reid is my father, he was born in 1925, Janet  Hanlon is his mother, she later married Joe Reid .

the 1921 census shows her in a home for mother/baby, in Chorlton, this is where she had Stella, who later died at a few years old.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Might not the first child’s birth certificate bear the rank and regiment of the father?

Even if he had left the Army, by convention it should say something like: Major JAS Burn late XXX Regiment.

Edited 15 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Might not the first child’s birth certificate bear the rank and regiment of the father?

neither Stella Hanlon or my father's Alan Hanlon/Reid have the father based on the birth certificate sadly.

I have just presumed that Seton-Burn is the father of Stella as well as my dad.

my dad's muddle name is Stuart-Seton which my grandmother gave him at birth...but she never told him who his father was.

we later found him in her address book after she passed...see attached

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

neither Stella Hanlon or my father's Alan Hanlon/Reid have the father based on the birth certificate sadly.

I have just presumed that Seton-Burn is the father of Stella as well as my dad.

my dad's muddle name is Stuart-Seton which my grandmother gave him at birth...but she never told him who his father was.

we later found him in her address book after she passed...see attached

I don’t think that there’s any doubt that your subject was a major, or that he used that sequence of names for much of his life.  The issue is what name he used during his actual service in the Army.  That isn’t necessarily the same and without it we cannot find his regiment and therefore even a hint of his service record.  As Peter pointed out, there’s nothing even remotely like his name under KOSB in the annually published Army List and that suggests he either, used a totally different name, or he served in another regiment entirely.

Edited 15 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t think that there’s any doubt that your subject was a major, or that he used that sequence of names for much of his life.  The issue is what name he used during his actual service in the Army.  That isn’t necessarily the same and without it we cannot find his regiment and therefore even a hint of his service record.  As Peter pointed out, there’s nothing even remotely like his name under KOSB in the annually published Army List and that suggests he either, used a totally different name, or he served in another regiment altogether.

yes agreed, I think I will contact the KOSB directly and see if they can confirm he is one of theirs.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, allyreid67 said:

yes agreed, I think I will contact the KOSB directly and see if they can confirm he is one of theirs.

That would be a very sensible course of action to take given the impasse we have reached.

[allyreid67]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

That would be a very sensible course of action to take given the impasse we have reached.

I will of course let you know the outcome 

many thanks 😊 🙏 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

I will of course let you know the outcome 

many thanks 😊 🙏 

I have sent a private message on the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum to the KOSB guru mentioned by Pete further up the thread, in order to see if the man concerned can help. 

Edited 15 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, IPT said:

The 1939 register, mentioned by PRC, gives his birth date as 13/10/1890.

Jack appears to be living on private means in the house of Belgian portrait artis, Ernest Castelein.  Can anyone make sense of Mary Ann and Jaqueline English's later marriages?

(Ancestry)

I've not seen the scans on Ancestry, but on FMP you can normally see the the first column of the facing page, even if only partially.

When the Register was originally taken that column was left deliberately blank - the column header tells us so.

However the Register had a subsequent life, initially in connection with ID cards and Ration Books.  That column is therefore sometime annotated to show civil defence roles, (but not Home Guard), and those I assume that required specialist ID passes as their work would routinely take them outside their home district. Very rarely it also sometimes mentions past military experience, particularly officers, or when a civil defence role ends on joining the armed forces.

As it's not part of the agreed information released by the government in settling the Fredom of Information court case it's certainly not indexed on FMP, and presumably the same on Ancestry.

Of course having written all that I have undoubtedly jinxed it and the column entry against Augustus will be resoundingly empty

Cheers,
Peter

[allyreid67]

thanks for that, I will take a look at FMP 👍

[IPT]

In the 1950s, our man was living with Kathleen Seton-Burn in Earls Court.

Liverpool Daily Post 1992

SETON-BURN formerly Crellin Annie Kathleen Seton-Burn otherwise Anne Kathleen Seton-Burn formerly Annie Kathleen Crellin Spinster late of Flat 44 15 Nevern Road Chelsea London SW5 died there on August 1992 (Estate about £2500) The kin of the above-named are requested to apply to the Treasury Solicitor (BVK Anne’s Chambers 28 Broadway london SWIH 9JS failing the Treasury may take steps to administer the estate.

1939 census, Bentley Road, Liverpool

[PRC]

Still looking into the angle that he was serving in 1911, hence the Delhi Durbar or Coronation Medal.

According to Hart's 1911 edition of the Annual Army List, the 1st Battalion started the year at Egypt, but under orders to move to Ranikhet. The 2nd Battalion was at Holywood, Belfast.

The 1911 Census of England & Wales return for the 1st Battalion found them at Ranikhet. All the officers of the Battalion were recorded on a single page as far as I can tell. Charles Antrobus is on a separate Royal Navy return, which ties in with the note on the schedule.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

The 2nd Battalion will be on the 1911 Census of Ireland. The Barracks return for the 2nd Battalion can be found here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Ballyhackamore/Knocknagoney/232268/

However a quick sample of the senior 2nd Battalion officers as shown in the Harts List shows them all married men and living "out" of barracks. The barracks return also flits back and forth between pages giving full names and others just giving initials, so not particularly helpful.

I believe focusing too much on the KOSB may be leading us up the garden path unless there is something more concrete to go on.

Cheers,
Peter

[IPT]

He would be 20 on the 1911 census, turning 21 on 13th October.

[PRC]

4 minutes ago, IPT said:

He would be 20 on the 1911 census, turning 21 on 13th October.

If we can take the information given on the 1939 Register and implied in the subsequent death registration at face value.

Given the names changes and so far the lack of visibility of him in the civil record before 1926 and non-appearance in the military records, there must be starting to be some question over that.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, IPT said:

In the 1950s, our man was living with Kathleen Seton-Burn in Earls Court.

Liverpool Daily Post 1992

SETON-BURN formerly Crellin Annie Kathleen Seton-Burn otherwise Anne Kathleen Seton-Burn formerly Annie Kathleen Crellin Spinster late of Flat 44 15 Nevern Road Chelsea London SW5 died there on August 1992 (Estate about £2500) The kin of the above-named are requested to apply to the Treasury Solicitor (BVK Anne’s Chambers 28 Broadway london SWIH 9JS failing the Treasury may take steps to administer the estate.

1939 census, Bentley Road, Liverpool

Reading between the lines it suggests he fell on hard times and married or became the common law husband (?) of perhaps his housekeeper.  Advertising Clerk seems well down the social spectrum from what he would once have been used to.

[allyreid67]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Reading between the lines it suggests he fell on hard times and married or became the common law husband (?) of perhaps his housekeeper.  Advertising Clerk seems well down the social spectrum from what he would once have been used to.

1939 census on FMP is blank in the remarks section for Augustus , so no mention of military service.

 

 

thanks for that, I will take a look at FMP 👍

[IPT]

6 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

the first electoral register I can find is 1926., l at 40 Clareville Steet, listed as follows:

1926 - BURN, SETON (MAJOR)

1929 - JOHN AUGUSTUS BURN

1930 -1933 -JOHN AUGUSTUS SETON-BURN 

the newspaper article is feom 1932

Interesting that Ernest Castelein is recorded at 40 Clareville Street in the 1930 city directory.

[PRC]

6 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

the first electoral register I can find is 1926., l at 40 Clareville Steet, listed as follows:

1926 - BURN, SETON (MAJOR)

Ally,

Have you thought about using his neighbours on the 1926 electoral register to track back and see who was living at the 40 Clareville Street on earlier electoral registers. Unless the properties were brand new it would seem likely that some of them might have been there at while - possibly back to the 1921 Census. Apologies as it may just be a question of eliminating another possibility.

What intrigued me is that looking for more information on Ernest Castelein I came across a picture that he had painted in 1916 of a young man in evening dress that perhap bore a slight resemblance to the officer in the picture. Chin would be the major difference, although as there is a similar looking young man in a painting dated 1936 that may just be the kind of face he was interested in. https://www.mutualart.com/Artist/Ernest-Castelein/855B8F9A065DD647/Artworks

No new IP is claimed for the above and all image rights remain with the current owners.

I can't see Ernest on the 1911 or 1921 Censuses of England & Wales, so I don't even know if the 1916 picture was posed in England or not.

According to the 1946 Probate Calendar, Ernest Marie Felix Castelein who died on the 30 July 1945 left effects valued at £3,449 18s 3d. Allowing only for inflation that would be just over £100k today. Of course that doesn’t  factor in house prices. That sort of sum of money might still have bought property in South Kensington in 1945 - £100k today might get you a timeshare of a cardboard box

Cheers,
Peter