scottish regiment ?

[allyreid67]

can anyone help identify the regiment and medals ?

believe he was in a Scottish regiment and a Major?

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. He’s a staff officer, Major.. @FROGSMILEwill be able to tell you more,  Riibons wise, I will leave that to others, but I think I can see an oak leaf attached to one ribbon.

[allyreid67]

thank you so much, yes I believe that is an oak leaf.

[FROGSMILE]

He is a General Staff Officer Second Grade (GSO2).  These were staff officers working in higher formation headquarters (Divisions, Corps and Armies), where they were responsible for aiding the generals in command with planning and delivering the necessary military effort to achieve victory in battle.  The GSO2s were appointed from officers of the rank of major.  Their immediate superiors were GSO1 and officers of the rank of lieutenant colonel.

Both these ranks were in the category of so-called “field grade” and at that time these GSO2 and GSO1 were marked out by two features, a single row of oak leaf lace on the peaks of their forage caps, and the staff officers badge of a crown surmounted by a lion.  In addition they wore scarlet gorget tabs on their collars.  If at some point an staff officer of the rank of major was promoted to lieutenant colonel, and returned to his parent regiment to command a battalion, then he would revert to wearing his regimental insignia.

Early in the war the coloured version of the forage cap was worn, which was dark blue with a scarlet band and with a black leather peak on which the gold lace was overlaid.  When wearing drab khaki service dress it became the practice to fit a drab cover over the top of the cap matching the uniform.  The scarlet gorget tab of both these staff officer grades was different to that worn by the generals themselves by having a short length of thin crimson gimp cord affixed to the small button instead of a line of gold oak leaf lace.  Later in the war this cap was largely replaced by an all khaki cap, which discarded any need for a braided peak and cap cover, but retained the special cap insignia.

Edited 13 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

thats so helpful thank you so much, should hopefully be able to do a bit more research on him with this info 😊 really appreciate the replies 

[mancpal]

I’m wondering about his medal ribbons.

If the oak leaves mentioned above are on the bottom right then surely that must be his Victory Medal, directly above is his British War Medal and to its left his star (either option). 
At this point I begin to struggle. On the top row far left the ribbon seems to have 3 stripes to it with what could be an emblem on the centre stripe, could it be MC and Bar? 
The remaining ones I’m at a loss with, the stripey ribbon on the bottom for some reason reminds me of RAF.

 The above is guesswork but I hope it sparks discussion.

Up the Blues!!!

Simon

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, mancpal said:

I’m wondering about his medal ribbons.

If the oak leaves mentioned above are on the bottom right then surely that must be his Victory Medal, directly above is his British War Medal and to its left his star (either option). 
At this point I begin to struggle. On the top row far left the ribbon seems to have 3 stripes to it with what could be an emblem on the centre stripe, could it be MC and Bar? 
The remaining ones I’m at a loss with, the stripey ribbon on the bottom for some reason reminds me of RAF.

 The above is guesswork but I hope it sparks discussion.

Up the Blues!!!

Simon

Yes I agree that the Victory Medal has his MID oak leaf on it, and the first medal is the Military Cross.  His final ribbon that is striped appears to be a Croix de Guerre I think.

Edited 12 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

wow that's amazing thank you all so much 🙏 

 

[Michelle Young]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I agree that the Victory Medal has his MID oak leaf on it, and the first medal is the Military Cross.  His final ribbon that is striped appears to be a Croix de Guerre I think.

Is there a rose on the MC? Which is a bar to the MC I believe? As mentioned by mancpal, sorry, didn’t read fully before, not enough caffeine! 
I guess a long trawl through the gazette would reveal the MC and Bar recipients, plus a MID, which would narrow him down for an ID

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Is there a rose on the MC? Which is a bar to the MC I believe? As mentioned by mancpal, sorry, didn’t read fully before, not enough caffeine! 
I guess a long trawl through the gazette would reveal the MC and Bar recipients, plus a MID, which would narrow him down for an ID

Yes that should ostensibly narrow things down.  The Scottish connection seems tenuous as I’d ordinarily expect him to wear a Scottish pattern jacket otherwise.

[TullochArd]

..... dangerously assuming that a Staff Officer's military tailor gets it right, and based upon the accepted Order of Precedence, the mystery medal ribbon between the MC and Bar and 14 or 14/15 Star must be another (British) Order or Decoration/Medal for Gallantry or Distinguished Conduct or a Campaign Medal awarded to this officer before the 14 or 14/15 Star. 

Beats me.

[mancpal]

Delhi Durbar medal?

Edited 13 June , 2023 by mancpal

[CorporalPunishment]

The top row of medal ribbons are the MC and Bar, the 1911 Coronation Medal, The 1914 or 1914-15 Star and the British War Medal, the second row are the French Croix de Guerre and what appears to be the Victory Medal with Oak Leaf. As it's a post war photo the Coronation Medal should by that date have been moved to follow the WW1 trio and the C de G should come last. A strange state of affairs indeed.     Pete.

Edited 13 June , 2023 by CorporalPunishment

[tonydb]

I notice the buttons have a Crown and Lion on them. Is this to do with his Staff appointment or would they be his Regimental button?

Tony.

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, tonydb said:

I notice the buttons have a Crown and Lion on them. Is this to do with his Staff appointment or would they be his Regimental button?

Tony.

Yes they are indeed staff buttons Tony.  General officers buttons were different again.

[CorporalPunishment]

48 minutes ago, tonydb said:

I notice the buttons have a Crown and Lion on them. Is this to do with his Staff appointment or would they be his Regimental button?

Tony.

The buttons look to be King's Own Scottish Borderers to my eyes.      Pete.

[allyreid67]

I also believe he was in KOSB so you may be correct Pete 

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

I also believe he was in KOSB so you may be correct Pete 

It is possible, after consulting dress regulations - regimental buttons were the only regimental insignia worn by GSOs - unless they were from a rifle regiment, when they wore the same button as substantive colonels.

I can make out that the central device is the simple “Royal Crest” of a crown surmounted by a crowned Lion.  This was at the time the badge of the Army as a whole (crossed crusader swords were added after WW1).  Unfortunately it was the central device for quite a few corps, including some cavalry, infantry and departmental units.  The infantry included the Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment, the Gloucestershire Regiment and the King’s Own Scottish Borderers.  The latter had the name of the regiment embossed around the outside.  I’m not sure if that is present when looking at the larger jacket buttons, but if your subject has a link with the KOSB then perhaps that is what they are as Pete said.

Edited 13 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

The 1911 George V Coronation medal and the 1911 Delhi Durbar medal have an identical ribbon. Medal 2 is one or the other.

Edited 13 June , 2023 by TullochArd

[CorporalPunishment]

23 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

The 1911 George V Coronation medal and the 1911 Delhi Durbar medal have an identical ribbon. Medal 2 is one or the other.

Yes the same ribbon for both medals and where a recipient received both awards they could only wear the one ribbon. Those who were awarded both wore the Coronation Medal with the "Delhi" clasp.      Pete.

[TullochArd]

20 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

can anyone help identify the regiment and medals ?

believe he was in a Scottish regiment and a Major?

 

Does the signet ring show any clearer detail in the original?  A nice touch is the monocle suspended from the top button.

[allyreid67]

OK so the gentleman in the photo is my paternal grandfather, we never knew him and neither did my father. I have only discovered him through dna on Ancestry. 

I was sent the photo by my newly discovered relative who said his name was John Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn a notable family from Scotland, Barons, Earls etc.

however I cannot find his military history using his name through the many ancestry sites so thought I would try to identify the medals regiment etc to trace him that way.

my relative did say he thought it was KOSB.

 

the ring is of the Seton Clan

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, allyreid67 said:

OK so the gentleman in the photo is my paternal grandfather, we never knew him and neither did my father. I have only discovered him through dna on Ancestry. 

I was sent the photo by my newly discovered relative who said his name was John Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn a notable family from Scotland, Barons, Earls etc.

however I cannot find his military history using his name through the many ancestry sites so thought I would try to identify the medals regiment etc to trace him that way.

my relative did say he thought it was KOSB.

 

the ring is of the Seton Clan

There are some really talented and generous genealogical sleuths here on the forum Ally, so I’m sure that one or more of them will be able to track him down.  The photographic portrait itself is a particularly fine one of a General Staff Officer.  Given that he has three of the most usual WW1 medals I suspect that he spent some time earlier at regimental duty with the KOSB.

Edited 13 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[allyreid67]

thank you! you have all been so helpful 

[TullochArd]

4 hours ago, allyreid67 said:

the ring is of the Seton Clan

....... and thank you too!  Now we are talking actual possibilities. 

I'll throw in here, primarily to cull a few potential red herrings, there are no singular Seton let alone Seton-Burn(s) or Seton (no hyphen) Burn(s) or indeed singular Burn(s) Military Cross and Bar recipients recorded in the LG which suggests to me that the subject has likely married into the distinguished signet ring wearing Seton Clan sometime late/post War.  His prior military pedigree, as clearly indicated in the photograph, supports his matrimonial suitability and leads me believe his identification lies with a post-War marriage to a female member of the Seton Clan.  I suspect the convoluted variations of John Gordon-Stuart Seton-Burn, as reported in (usually correct) family lore may derive from this late/]inter-War/pre marriage period when such name balancing matters were considered all important and therefore likely masks his true wartime identity in some fashion. 

Great project!

.......follow the female line,

Edited 13 June , 2023 by TullochArd