BURIALS of 'UNKNOWN' in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND

[Matlock1418]

21 minutes ago, museumtom said:

I only do the 26 counties Matlock old son.

Ah yes [had to check that number as not so familiar here in another part of the world] - that now seems to explains it.

Sorry - At the time, 1917 and for a while longer, it was all one "Ireland" [as you certainly very well know] and I'd lost track of where the counting stops & starts/starts & stops [well nowadays anyway!]

Never mind, any later members visiting here will have those two officers on record too.

Still can't explain [though I can have a good guess] nor document such relocation(s) of burial/commemoration(s) - so my questions above about CWGC and access to such documents still remain.  Might just have to go and ask them if nobody else here knows!

Regards,

M

 

[museumtom]

Beats me M. Ith a mythery....

[Keith_history_buff]

On 25/04/2022 at 12:39, museumtom said:

You are making assumptions Matlock. For a clearer picture drop Terry a PM or email.

I have lads accepted by IFCP for years, the delay is the MOD not Terry. 

Totally concur with this statement. 

What seemed like a straightforward submission was sent to the MOD in August 2019. Only now have they confirmed that his commemoration will be formally accepted.

The MOD moves in mysterious ways. It's lead times are not something that IFCP have control or influence over.

I have submitted a subsequent non-commemoration, and therefore anticipate it will be a while before I hear anything further.

[Matlock1418]

Have sent and received PM about Cobh Old Cemetery with Terry Denham of IFCP

It appears the current state of play is that the Cobh Old Cemetery Rurial Register listing was submitted by IFCP to CWGC in 2021 and a response from CWGC is still awaited.

As most seem 'Unknown' Merchantile Marine seafarers then the MoD shouldn't be needed, so should just be a CWGC decision as I understand it - the delay has not been explained.

The case of Gilbert STOTT, seemingly buried at Cobh and who is currently commemorated by CWGC on the Tower Hill Memorial, has also already been submitted.

We wait.

M

Edited 9 May , 2022 by Matlock1418

[museumtom]

And wait we must...

[museumtom]

Another for you.

Campbell, C.pdf

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, museumtom said:

Another for you.

Campbell, C.pdf 245.8 kB · 2 downloads

Had a very quick look = All named burials

What is the query/observation you raise?

Think I have noted some do appear to be commemorated elsewhere ???

Have these variants already been advised to CWGC?

M

[museumtom]

No particular reason Matlock old son, just thought you would be interested all from the same location. Here is another.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, museumtom said:

thought you would be interested all from the same location. Here is another.

It certainly looks as though the clerk was sadly having a very busy day making all those these 25/26 Jan 1917 death entries - not least also based on his handwriting, which seems to have been under some strain.

Rather looks like Thomas CRAIG isn't [yet?] commemorated at CWGC under those specific details [Or is he now under different details?]

Do you know if the details above have been passed to IFCP => CWGC?

M

[museumtom]

OK Matlock I got him, he was Thomas Craze, of the Laurentic. Buried Upper Fahan (St Mura’s) Church of Ireland Churchyard, County Donegal.

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, museumtom said:

I got him, he was Thomas Craze, of the Laurentic. Buried Upper Fahan (St Mura’s) Church of Ireland Churchyard, County Donegal.

Have sent you a PM - Looks like until only very recently he was commemorated on the Plymouth Naval Memorial

Was lost - Now found. 

M

Edited 13 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
add

[museumtom]

Let me double check...

Here he is.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662742/thomas-craze/

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, museumtom said:

Let me double check...

Here he is.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662742/thomas-craze/

From my recent notes it seems until only a few days he was commemorated at Plymouth Naval Memorial, but now it seems updated to Upper Fahan (St Mura's) Church of Ireland Churchyard. 

M

Edited 13 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
new commemoration location

[museumtom]

Thanks Matlock.

[Matlock1418]

On 07/05/2022 at 15:16, Matlock1418 said:

Thomas STEEL, Lieutenant RNR https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661294/thomas-steele CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Tullylish (All Saints) Church of Ireland Churchyard - as STEELE  Find a Grave have a photo of his CWGC headstone and the man https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159987128/thomas-steele

Richard MORGAN, Lieutenant RNR https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662648/richard-morgan CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Cockhill Catholic Cemetery Find a Grave have a photo of a private memorial https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/160388063/richard-morgan

R. R. MITCHELL, Engineer Lieutenant, RNR = https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661458/r-r-mitchell. CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Holywood Cemetery, Co. Down.  Find a Grave have a photo of his CWGC headstone and one of the man, Robert Ririe MITCHELL, at Holywood Cemetery https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226425186/robert-ririe-mitchell

John KENNY, Seaman RNR https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/663349/john-kenny CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Arklow Cemetery

W. HAGAN, Sergt RMLI https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/373970/w-hagan CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Liverpool (West Derby) Cemetery  Find a Grave have a photo of his CWGC headstone https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/32676563/william-hagan

FYI @museumtom

Recent communication with CWGC indicates that they have no record of how or when these five apparent exhumations & reburials took place.

They only appear to have a record of the three CWGC headstones indicated above [see the Headstone Schedules]

However a further update for this thread:

Richard MORGAN - Photo of private headstone at The War Graves Photographic Project https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/1071050

John KENNY - Photo of private/family headstone at The War Graves Photographic Project https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/1963674

M

Edit: Re-reading the Deaths Register above [it's not a Burial register] - exhumations and reburials now seems less likely

Edited 23 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
Edit

[museumtom]

Thank you Matlock. I have come across exhumations in the past, mainly German war dead in Irish graves. The Mercantile Marine are the most difficult, when they exhume and return the body there is no record..

[Matlock1418]

On 13/05/2022 at 17:17, museumtom said:

I have come across exhumations in the past, mainly German war dead in Irish graves. The Mercantile Marine are the most difficult, when they exhume and return the body there is no record..

Wonder if you or anyone else know how to find the Burial Register for Arklow Cemetery and can see if John KENNY is actually buried there? Or if there are records for his prior exhumation?

This seems essential if we are to know for sure if he is at Arklow or perhaps still at Buncrana.

The headstone says In Loving Memory of James KENNY d. Dec 1934, his wife Bridget d. April 1921. Also their sons Myles d. Nov 1905, John d. 25 Jan 1917, Thomas d. Aug1918 [Image is very pixelated on the WGPP photo]

All seems like a later erected and rather retrospective headstone after James KENNY's death in 1934.

Just wondering if the headstone inscription could possibly just be a memorial to John with his body elsewhere ??

But why then would CWGC have him at Arklow on an undated form with a 4/28 printer's mark?? [OK I do understand such forms could hang around for a few years] 

CWGC claim to have no knowledge of how John might have got to Arklow = ??? Edit: CWGC have suggested it was "because the burial process in its entirety was carried out by the service authorities, we only have the documents pertinent to our part played in the registering, and marking the graves. (In instances when the next of kin had chosen to have the grave marked with a Commission headstone.)" = ???

Also puzzled by the large X next to his entry on the CWGC Graves Register = ???

M

Edit: Re-reading the Deaths Register above [it's not a Burial register] - exhumation and reburial now seems less likely

Edited 23 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
Edit

[museumtom]

The CWGC is a mystery to me.......

[Hill244]

Didn't that Barton chap write years ago that most Unknowns were actually known and recorded in Red Cross HQ, Geneva? That they were to be put online in 2014? 

[Matlock1418]

On 16/05/2022 at 15:03, Hill244 said:

Didn't that Barton chap write years ago that most Unknowns were actually known and recorded in Red Cross HQ, Geneva? That they were to be put online in 2014? 

I think this IRC archive topic surfaced about 2009 - sadly I don't think many of us have heard of any significant developments since.

However, the wider identification of the burials/names of 'Unknowns' in mainland Europe is slightly different to the specific identification of 'Unknowns' buried in the ROI or even the identification of locations alone of such burials of 'Unknowns' in the ROI.

I wouldn't want this thread to become too broad [so if general discussion of the IRC archives and the Peter Barton report etc. is required it could/should perhaps please be attached to another thread, possibly on  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/118905-red-cross-archive-report-by-peter-barton or elsewhere].  Thanks

Just recently getting some locations of the burials of 'Unknowns' buried in the ROI out of CWGC seemed a small victory in itself since they do not widely release such details [and thus the start of this thread] - but in fact there are potentially many more 'Unknowns' [and potentially 'Knowns'] buried in the ROI that CWGC don't know about.

= Beyond my orginal posting above of the list provided to me by CWGC I hope that perhaps this thread in the future might collect a few more new burial locations of 'Unknowns' [and potentially 'Knowns'] in the ROI that could be reported to the CWGC [perhaps beforehand being passed through IFCP to act as a filter to avoid duplication??] - any personal identification investigation of 'Unknowns' could perhaps also then/later be made.

In hope ...

M

Addit:  There is a similar "Burials of 'Unknowns' in the UK" thread - new findings in the UK are also sought to be posted there.

 

Edited 18 May , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Hill244]

Original report so old it didn't even have a Twitter link. Ta. 

[museumtom]

Oftentimes I come across the obits in the newspaper giving the place of burial but IFCP will not accept this, only the grave registers is acceptable. Others, even though I sent the grave registers with the potential candidate, if he is accepted it could take a lot longer to include his place of burial. So they are in the Brookwood Memorial, Tower Hill Memorial, United Kingdom Book of Remembrance., or United Kingdom Book of Remembrance

[Matlock1418]

52 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Oftentimes I come across the obits in the newspaper giving the place of burial but IFCP will not accept this, only the grave registers is acceptable. Others, even though I sent the grave registers with the potential candidate, if he is accepted it could take a lot longer to include his place of burial. So they are in the Brookwood Memorial, Tower Hill Memorial, United Kingdom Book of Remembrance., or United Kingdom Book of Remembrance

I can believe on both counts, but ...

a) can understand the Burial Register being required as an official source

b) a shame accepted updates seem rather slowly released by CWGC - I can understand some delays at CWGC in altering physical commemorations [e.g. removing from memorials and providing new headstones etc.]  but surprised not done more quickly on the CWGC website [Same delays with some of my recent successes - non-comms who are now considered now-comms - still waiting for the CWGC website to be updated, months later = Not sure what is going on at CWGC but seems slower this year ??]

M

[museumtom]

Matlock old son, I know this is right up your street, enjoy!

Edward Kenny, 10531 is on the La Ferte-Sous-Jouarre Memorial, France.

Captain W Gordon Barker, Connaught Rangers, recently died in Scotland after a long illness, following on ten months captivity as a wounded prisoner of war in Germany. In going through some of his effects which have never been unpacked since his repatriation, his devoted mother found seven identity Discs. These she believes to have belonged to seven of the gallant Connaught Rangers who made the great sacrifice on August 26th, 1914, and of whom her son wrote: “It would comfort their people to know that I had them decently buried, and prayers said for the repose of their souls.” Mrs Barker is sure that the relatives of these brave Irishmen would like to treasure these sad mementoes of their noble dead. If they apply to her she shall be very pleased to the next-of-kin in each case. She adds a list of the names and numbers; the latter are not quite clear in every case: 10412 E McCann; 10531 E Keany(sic), R.C. ; 10540 J Daly, R.C.; 4244 C Norris, R.C.; 7589 M Devine, R.C.; 10113 J Reilly, R.C.; 7899 J Higgins, R.C. Mrs Barker lives at 144 Harley Street, London, and deserves thanks for her thoughtfulness and consideration.

Edited 21 May , 2022 by museumtom

[museumtom]

Possibly the same man as this?

Found in Drumcooley cemetery near Edenderry this morning.