BURIALS of 'UNKNOWN' in the REPUBLIC OF IRELAND

[Matlock1418]

Received by e-mail from CWGC 13 Jan 2022

Casualty Report - By Cemetery

CHARLEVILLE (HOLY CROSS) CEMETERY, County Cork, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Soldier. Machine Gun Corps. 1 January 1921 to 31 December 1921. Grave Reference: South East Corner

, Soldier. Machine Gun Corps. 1 January 1921 to 31 December 1921. Grave Reference: South East Corner

CULDAFF CHURCH OF IRELAND CHURCHYARD, County Donegal, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Seaman. Royal Navy. 9 January 1918. 

GRANGEGORMAN MILITARY CEMETERY, County Dublin, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Soldier. Unknown Commonwealth Forces. Grave Reference: CE. New Plot. 741

, Soldier. Unknown Commonwealth Forces. Grave Reference: CE. New Plot. 756

GREENCASTLE (ST. FINIAN) CHURCH OF IRELAND CHURCHYARD, County Donegal, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Seaman. Royal Navy. 9 January 1918. 

RATHMULLAN (ST. COLUMB) CHURCH OF IRELAND CHURCHYARD, County Donegal, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Seaman. Royal Navy. 9 January 1918. 

SKERRIES CEMETERY, County Dublin, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Seaman. Royal Navy. 18 March 1918. 

TEMPLETOWN GRAVEYARD, County Wexford, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Seaman. Mercantile Marine. 12 July 1917. 

, Seaman. Mercantile Marine. 20 April 1917. 

, Seaman. Mercantile Marine. 20 April 1917. 

UPPER FAHAN (ST. MURA'S) CHURCH OF IRELAND CHURCHYARD, County Donegal, Ireland, Republic of

Commonwealth War Dead (1914-1918)

, Marine. Royal Marines. 

, Sailor. H.M.S. "Laurentic", Royal Navy. 25 January 1917. Grave Reference: Royal Naval Plot

, Sailor. H.M.S. "Laurentic", Royal Navy. 25 January 1917. Grave Reference: Royal Naval Plot

, Sailor. H.M.S. "Laurentic", Royal Navy. 25 January 1917. Grave Reference: Royal Naval Plot

, Sailor. H.M.S. "Laurentic", Royal Navy. 25 January 1917. Grave Reference: Royal Naval Plot

, Sailor. H.M.S. "Laurentic", Royal Navy. 25 January 1917. Grave Reference: Royal Naval Plot

Hope it helps someone.

M

[Jervis]

Thanks for sharing Matlock. Unsurprisingly most were washed up from the sea. (I was following the related thread on UK “unknowns”.)  Only this week I visited the well tended  unknown burial in Skerries, Co. Dublin.
 

An old thread on this forum speculated the  unknown sailor was possibly from the torpedoed SS Kenmare. 
 

Jervis

[museumtom]

There are other unnamed unknown burials in Old Church Cemetery in Cobh, County Cork that are not recorded in the CWGC, 25 from the S.S. Feltria and one from the S.S. Vienna. Their names would be listed on the Tower Hill Memorial though.

[Matlock1418]

10 hours ago, Jervis said:

I was following the related thread on UK “unknowns”.

I had noted.  Of course the UK was Great Britain and Ireland at the time.

10 hours ago, Jervis said:

Only this week I visited the well tended  unknown burial in Skerries, Co. Dublin.

Thanks for the photo - that confirms one on the list.

3 hours ago, museumtom said:

There are other unnamed unknown burials in Old Church Cemetery in Cobh, County Cork that are not recorded in the CWGC, 25 from the S.S. Feltria and one from the S.S. Vienna. Their names would be listed on the Tower Hill Memorial though.

So what you are saying is that they are missing from the list of 'Unknown' burials recently provided by CWGC, above.  And I too can't see them on the list.

That would seem to diminish confidence that the list of burials provided was complete.  Hmmm ... So not as helpful from CWGC as first thought ?? 

M

[museumtom]

What I am saying is they have no name so the CWGC cannot add them. On the burial registers they are only listed as Protestant and from the Feltria.  Anoth view on unknowns in the CWGC is that if the soldier has been accepted for inclusion by IFCP, no matter if he has gone all the way and accepted by the CWGC because his grave register cannot be located he will be listed on an English Memorial, even though he died after discharge in the 26 counties and his place of burial is listed with his obit in the local papers. There are over 320 from the 26 counties accepted ( by IFCP) so far. 

[museumtom]

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, museumtom said:

What I am saying is they have no name so the CWGC cannot add them. On the burial registers they are only listed as Protestant and from the Feltria. 

Thanks for the image of the register - identification and definition by faith is a puzzle to me.  And a subject of mystery all round.

I am also rather confused.  The CWGC have perported to earlier supply a listing of all those 'Unknown' burials that they recognise as casualties of the war [as listed by them/me above] 

And yet you appear to be saying that CWGC don't recoginse these SS Feltria burials [as casualties of the war]?  I would wonder why not??

As I understand it the SS Feltria was sunk by a U-Boat 5 May 1917 so even if their bodies were not identified at time of their burial the graves should be at least listed by CWGC as 'Unknowns' of the SS Feltria [And their names recorded on the Tower Hill Memorial - on which I note those from the SS "Feltria" (London)] - So why not on the CWGC 'Unknown' burial list that they provided to me?

1 hour ago, museumtom said:

Anoth view on unknowns in the CWGC is that if the soldier has been accepted for inclusion by IFCP, no matter if he has gone all the way and accepted by the CWGC because his grave register cannot be located he will be listed on an English Memorial, even though he died after discharge in the 26 counties and his place of burial is listed with his obit in the local papers. There are over 320 from the 26 counties accepted ( by IFCP) so far. 

This is subject knowledge on which I am deficient.

'Unknown' burials and names on memorials appear two separate, but of course potentially linked, subjects to me.

What was being sought from CWGC was "Where are there CWGC-recognised 'Unknown' burials" and not where their names are recorded.

That the SS Feltria burials do not appear listed is a puzzle to me.

M

Edited 25 April , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[museumtom]

These registers were passed on to IFCP for the CWGC last year. As far as I know they have not yet been processed yet.

[Matlock1418]

21 minutes ago, museumtom said:

These registers were passed on to IFCP for the CWGC last year. As far as I know they have not yet been processed yet.

Right, so as far as you know, IFCP have noted such 'Unknown' burials but they have not been passed to CWGC so CWGC haven't yet noted them and have thus they have not been made available for their staff to release to members of the enquiring public!

Remarkable and disappointing that IFCP would appear to be taking so long - Actually I'm not that surprised, but very disappointed.

M

Edited 25 April , 2022 by Matlock1418
strike & correction / then remove stike

[museumtom]

You are making assumptions Matlock. For a clearer picture drop Terry a PM or email.

I have lads accepted by IFCP for years, the delay is the MOD not Terry. 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, museumtom said:

You are making assumptions Matlock. For a clearer picture drop Terry a PM or email.

I have lads accepted by IFCP for years, the delay is the MOD not Terry. 

Agreed, assumptions really are not the way to go and wrong of me to get too heated over things about which I am not fully privy - And I'm certainly not wanting to get into a barney with anyone!  We seem here to be on the same side after all!

But ... However I do think it is worthy of a PM to Terry to find out about progress.

Can't quite see how the MoD would have anything to do with Mercantile Marine 'Unknown' casualty burials like the SS Feltria.

[But can perhaps see for the Armed Forces / Soldiers etc. - MoD do seem particularly slow/seemingly under-resourced?]

I was grateful to get what I got from CWGC, I'll/we'll just have to accept it is not necessarily the full picture [Just the limit of current knowledge - Will it ever be full?] - to which we can hopefully continue to add = The puzzle was why SS Feltria 'Unknown' burials, which appear to have official burial register entries, were not included in the CWGC list.

It rather does look like Gilbert STOTT's commemoration should move from the Tower Hill Memorial - or once they have got it will CWGC, or whoever, not accept a register entry for his place of burial?? We will have to wait and see I presume.

M

[Jervis]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for the image of the register - identification and definition by faith is a puzzle to me.  And a subject of mystery all round.

It is strange. I have seen bracelets like the attached image with name & Religion. I assume that these men wearing some kind of bracket that identified their faith but not their name.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Jervis said:

I assume that these men wearing some kind of bracket that identified their faith but not their name.

I wonder if the RC had a rosary in their pocket or elsewhere on their person. 

Probably wouldn't be quite so clear for a Protestant would it?  Or would it??

Tattoos???

M

Edit: Pocket bibles ???

Edited 25 April , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit

[museumtom]

If you are 'into' unknowns, type unknown in the search box on this page.

https://irelandsgreatwardead.ie/the-archive/

[Matlock1418]

On 25/04/2022 at 14:21, museumtom said:

https://irelandsgreatwardead.ie/the-archive/

Thanks for the link - It's a great piece of work you have done. 

It obviously does highlight those casualties where a place of burial is not [yet?] known.

The current difficulty with CWGC not listing 'Unknowns' is that, for example if looking for 'Unknown' casualties' burials from the SS "Feltria", you cannot search/find them [even though in this example Old Church Cemetery, Cobh, County Cork has them resting there] Etc.

M

Edit: A serious interest of mine is trying to find a Royal Warwickshire Regiment soldier killed in in F&F in 1914 so knowing where 'Unknown' RWR are laid to rest might assist. But you cannot search CWGC for 'Unknown' RWR generally or more specifically located.

Likewise frustrating for other enquirers with similar intentions. Currently we are rather challenged to find any such burial details - e.g. such plots in cemeteries and other details such as those that might be found on Graves Registration Report Forms and/or Concentration of Graves Burial Returns, etc.  [Not withstanding the great work done on the latter by the late Richard Laughton, RIP, such info is not that readily-available to the general public.]

As it currently appears to inadvertently stunt such enquiries we can only hope CWGC can get round to making such details readily-available in some accessible manner.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[museumtom]

Here is my pennyworth for what it is worth. My unknowns are those who have no known graves here in the 26 counties. Your list have graves where the body is unknown. If you can see in a cemetery where an unknown is buried and look at the burials on either side you 'should' get an idea when he was buried and in which county. Join the two and you might have a way to nail down some?

[Jervis]

Tom, 

As Matlock says, the late (forum member) Richard Laughton used to do exactly that and more. He scrutinised various source material to try and identify men buried as “Known unto God”. 

But here is the problem - you can’t find the “Known unto God” records using the CWGC website (or seemingly otherwise).

For example: I was in Skerries cemetery last week and saw and photographed the grave of an unknown Sailor (as above). But this is the CWGC record for the Skerries cemetery it indicates “Zero casualties”. Not helpful from a research point of view. 

Jervis

[ss002d6252]

13 minutes ago, Jervis said:

As Matlock says, the late (forum member) Richard Laughton used to do exactly that and more. He scrutinised various source material to try and identify men buried as “Known unto God”. 

But here is the problem - you can’t find the “Known unto God” records using the CWGC website (or seemingly otherwise).

Not directly, but the CWGC paperwork for the cemeteries does show the unknowns. It's a right pain to get to the data as it's online, but not easily reachable. Richard had compiled the sets for some cemeteries.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

On 25/04/2022 at 20:34, museumtom said:

My unknowns are those who have no known graves here in the 26 counties.

I can see that - Must be very frustrating when you have good evidence of a death(s) but their resting place(s) is not known.

On 25/04/2022 at 20:34, museumtom said:

Your list have graves where the body is unknown.

That's it - known grave but unknown body.  But this info is not shared by CWGC

On 25/04/2022 at 21:04, Jervis said:

But here is the problem - you can’t find the “Known unto God” records using the CWGC website (or seemingly otherwise).

For example: I was in Skerries cemetery last week and saw and photographed the grave of an unknown Sailor (as above). But this is the CWGC record for the Skerries cemetery it indicates “Zero casualties”. Not helpful from a research point of view. 

Thank you for your posts - your photo/illustrated example nicely shows this problem.

We can only hope this is resolved and likewise that the graves of the 'Unknowns' from the SS Feltria can be listed.

When looking at CWGC it may/would potentially assist to more clearly see the 'Unknowns'/unnamed gaps in their named lists and any documents that might relate to those gaps.

On 25/04/2022 at 21:20, ss002d6252 said:

the CWGC paperwork for the cemeteries does show the unknowns. It's a right pain to get to the data as it's online, but not easily reachable. Richard had compiled the sets for some cemeteries.

Yes, yes and yes. 

This is no adverse reflection on the great work done by Richard Laughton and his gang = but it would be handier for many enquirers if all the info on 'Unknowns' burials more readily came from the CWGC.

M

Edited 9 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[museumtom]

For what it is worth.

Abbott.pdf

[Matlock1418]

On 07/05/2022 at 11:24, museumtom said:

For what it is worth.

Abbott.pdf 229.6 kB · 3 downloads

Thanks Tom,

Though not 'Unknowns' in the sense that we do know their names = Always good to get this sort of info out and about.

Burial Death Registrations for BUNCRANA, INISHOWEN, DONEGAL

Deaths: Night of 25 or morning of 26 January 1917 on the High Seas from shock and exposure.   Burial: 10 February 1917

These burials deaths appear to relate to the sinking of HMS “Laurentic” - I suspect there are other entries/pages in the register too.

Not-withstanding I just had to have a look at CWGC for these men on this one page.

CWGC have burials as UPPER FAHAN (ST. MURA'S) CHURCH OF IRELAND CHURCHYARD, unless otherwise detailed.

T. PARKER, RMLI [Can't find an entry for this name and date commemorated on CWGC]

John ABBOTT, RMLI https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662727/john-arthur-abbott

ASTBURY, Sergt RMLI https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662729/herbert-thomas-astbury

REYNOLDS, (14853 Eastney), Acting Bombardier, RMA https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662770/montague-james-reynolds [RMA/10853]

W. CUNNINGHAM, RMLI https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662743/william-cunningham

Thomas STEEL, Lieutenant RNR https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661294/thomas-steele CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Tullylish (All Saints) Church of Ireland Churchyard - as STEELE  Find a Grave have a photo of his CWGC headstone and the man https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159987128/thomas-steele

Richard MORGAN, Lieutenant RNR https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/662648/richard-morgan CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Cockhill Catholic Cemetery Find a Grave have a photo of a private memorial https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/160388063/richard-morgan

R. R. MITCHELL, Engineer Lieutenant, RNR = https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661458/r-r-mitchell. CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Holywood Cemetery, Co. Down.  Find a Grave have a photo of his CWGC headstone and one of the man, Robert Ririe MITCHELL, at Holywood Cemetery https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226425186/robert-ririe-mitchell

John KENNY, Seaman RNR https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/663349/john-kenny CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Arklow Cemetery

W. HAGAN, Sergt RMLI https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/373970/w-hagan CWGC have him alternatively buried/commemorated at Liverpool (West Derby) Cemetery  Find a Grave have a photo of his CWGC headstone https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/32676563/william-hagan

The intriguing observation is that for five of these ten men they do not now appear buried/commemorated where the Buncrana Burial Death Register indicates.

= What happened for this to occur and what documents might record it?

= Would CWGC have such details?  If so, would they make them available - and how?  [Otherwise an interesting part of the men's stories may well be lost to the majority of enquirers]

???

M

Edited 23 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
Strike references to Burial = Death Register, not burial

[museumtom]

OK here we go, say goodbye to your afternoon dossing!.

The Laurentic casualties are registered here.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=&namel=&location=&yyfrom=1917&yyto=1917&type=D&submit=Search&sort=&pageSize=100&century=&decade=&exact=&ddBfrom=&ddMfrom=&ddDfrom=&ddPfrom=&mmBfrom=&mmMfrom=&mmDfrom=&mmPfrom=&yyBfrom=&yyMfrom=&yyDfrom=&yyPfrom=&ddBto=&ddMto=&ddDto=&ddPto=&mmBto=&mmMto=&mmDto=&mmPto=&yyBto=&yyMto=&yyDto=&yyPto=&locationB=&locationM=&locationD=&locationP=&keywordb=&keywordm=&keywordd=&keywordp=&event=&district=Inishowen

 

 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by museumtom
Reducing band width

[Matlock1418]

49 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Here are the names in my 26 counties files, there may be a name difference in the death certs.

HMS "Laurentic" - It's a long and sad list.

Apart from PARKER who has evaded me so far.

Also don't see RR MITCHELL on your list ??? https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661458/r-r-mitchell 

Naval record https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14615462 

M

Edited 7 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
naval record and link

[Matlock1418]

43 minutes ago, museumtom said:

More information on them here.

https://irelandsgreatwardead.ie/the-archive/

???

STEELE, Thomas, Sub-Lieutenant https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661294/thomas-steele

Naval Service Record  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8293501

M

[museumtom]

59 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

HMS "Laurentic" - It's a long and sad list.

Apart from PARKER who has evaded me so far.

Also don't see RR MITCHELL on your list ??? https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/661458/r-r-mitchell 

Naval record https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14615462 

M

I only do the 26 counties Matlock old son.