Looking for a WW1 Military Medal, Private J. Cassidy 4685 Leinster Regiment

[Ivor Anderson]

8 hours ago, SLDreew said:

Also I know it's uncertain, but is it most likely that he was awarded the MM for the Battle of Vimy Ridge?

I think it is looking very likely based on the late May 1917 Corps award reference on his service record and the missing schedule nos. in the gazette.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

Do you know if there are any photos of the Leinster Regiment at Vimy Ridge?

[SLDreew]

Also is there any chance of finding the SWB?

 

[Ivor Anderson]

7 hours ago, SLDreew said:

Do you know if there are any photos of the Leinster Regiment at Vimy Ridge?

No. The Regimental Museum should know.

6 hours ago, SLDreew said:

Also is there any chance of finding the SWB?

As stated - slim. It likely still exists somewhere, but due to its small size it could easily have been lost/discarded.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[FlersChampagne]

It is possible. I am finding other 2nd Leinster MMs in the 9th July 1917 LG - ref. 68/121/218 (no Cassidy 4685) - so far:

Pte. William Hanlon 4222                    MM schedule no. 87301

Pte. Henry Kennedy 15026                 MM schedule no. 87302

3&4?

Cpl. Patrick Egan 10012                      MM schedule no. 87305 (Bar)

L/C Bartholomew Moynihan 8794        MM schedule no. 87306

L/C Michael Lyons 8192                      MM schedule no. 87307

L/C P. Leslie 1186                               MM schedule no. 87308

EDIT: I don't see any more in that LG? There are some consecutive MM schedule nos. missing (3&4) perhaps Cassidy's was one?

Hi Ivor, I've done a bit of work on this and I concur. Fairly sure that Cassidy's MM was omitted from the 9.7.17 Gazette. The fact he left France on the 25.4.17 according to his service papers would support this. His MM is for the April action.
There are quite a few instances of MM's being gazetted later with Schedule Numbers that fit into blocks which dates them.

Kind regards

Chris 

[Ivor Anderson]

Thank you Chris.

It is reassuring to have your confirmation that we were on the right track. It was an unusual case and very satisfying to solve.

Hopefully James (John) Cassidy was not distressed by its omission from the 9th July 1917 LG as he wrote his will on 1st August 1917!

Looking forward to your next MM book. 

Best wishes,

Ivor

[MartyG]

16 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

His SWB (lapel badge) appears to have been issued to him (Ancestry image) - numbered 303689 on the back (photo of from of one):

It is possible that it still survives but finding his exact numbered one would be a long shot.

I wonder if this was the “silver Medal” referred to in his will? Or would that not have yet been issued to him prior to his death?

Martin

 

 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by MartyG

[MartyG]

On 02/09/2021 at 10:41, SLDreew said:

Doesn’t this record say his date of birth was 12th Oct 1895? On his birth certificate it’s 4th Feb 1893.

 

Also I don’t see anything in the War Diary for 22nd May 1917

As you doubtless know, it was fairly common to be somewhat flexible with the truth re one’s age on enlistment - my own great uncle was 41 in the April Census of 1911, but had somehow aged only another two years when he enlisted in July 1915 

Fascinating thread by the way and, once again, I never fail to be amazed by the astounding and dedicated detective work carried out by the lads and lasses here. Good luck and keep us informed. 

Martin

 

[Jervis]

I checked some of the books I have on the Leinsters and there is no mention of J Cassidy 4685. 

However, strangely and coincidentally there was mention of a P Cassidy (#3005). This Cassidy captured two German soldiers while on patrol in June 1917. There was no mention of a MM for this action, although potentially worthy of one. 

I am just raising this here, on the off chance and the possibility the regimental history (by Whitton) actually named the wrong man. 
 

Jervis

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Jervis

[SLDreew]

I did see him in the War Diary, and this is Patrick Cassidy, 3005

[SLDreew]

Also I still haven't heard back from the Leinster Regiment Association, I checked and I couldn't see any record of my email being sent. I'll make a facebook account at some point today and see if I can contact them there.

[Ivor Anderson]

1 hour ago, Jervis said:

I checked some of the books I have on the Leinsters and there is no mention of J Cassidy 4685. 

However, strangely and coincidentally there was mention of a P Cassidy (#3005). This Cassidy captured two German soldiers while on patrol in June 1917. There was no mention of a MM for this action, although potentially worthy of one. 

I am just raising this here, on the off chance and the possibility the regimental history (by Whitton) actually named the wrong man. 

It is not surprising that he is not mentioned in regimental histories considering the mix up. It could not be for June 1917 if it was a Corps award on 22 May 1917? Were the other MM names for Vimy Ridge in the July 1917 gazette mentioned? Patrick Cassidy 3005 also got a SWB. He was with 6th Bn. before the 2nd. (Ancestry SWB clip):

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

5 hours ago, FlersChampagne said:

The fact he left France on the 25.4.17 according to his service papers would support this.

So he left France in April 1917 but was discharged in January 1918?

Edited 4 September , 2021 by SLDreew

[Ivor Anderson]

I wondered where 25-04-1917 came from too? I thought it was on another page on FMP that I couldn't see.

The service record page posted earlier by museumtom shows 25-11-1917.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

It does look kind of like a 4, but that wouldn't be 2 years and 8 months since 2nd Feb 1915

So I guess he was discharged on 25th November 1917, but not officially until 3rd January 1918, the day after he died.

[SLDreew]

Is 2-2-1915 when he disembarked to France?

Edited 4 September , 2021 by SLDreew

[Ivor Anderson]

9 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Is 2-2-1915 when he disembarked to France?

It looks like 2-4-1915.            2-4-1915 to 25-11-1917 is almost 2 years and 8 months.

[SLDreew]

My bad, typo, should've said 2-4-15

[SLDreew]

Actually, would he have been entitled to either the 1914 or 1914-15 Star?

[TullochArd]

On 02/09/2021 at 10:33, Ivor Anderson said:

The SWB Record shows he was age 22 and had 83 days overseas service on discharge.  Assuming (a dangerous but necessary risk in this case) this is unbroken service that's a mximum of three months either side of this date.  An award of a medal by a Corps Commander (in this case Sir Arthur Holland 1 Corps Commander Feb 17-1920) would have had to originate in 2 Leinsters and pass through 73 Bde and 24 Div and on to 1st Corps ......filtering out on the way.  I see 73 Bde/24 Div WDs are on the NA ....... to save an duplication of effort is anyone following this up? If not I'll give it a go.

.......... any views on what "L/????" is after "1st Corps" on the above?

......... it's quite surprising to me that a soldier joining up in 1913 only has 83 overseas service considering 2 Leinsters were in the thick of it from 1914 onwards.

[TullochArd]

17 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Actually, would he have been entitled to either the 1914 or 1914-15 Star?

.......I've had a look at that.  I don't believe so.  The 2 Leinsters 14 Star and Clasps are on separate MICs and although there is a J Cassidy it is another number.  Importantly your J Cassidy only had 83 days overseas service ..... see my post above.  This makes it very unlikely unless there was broken service and the absence of a second MIC/Medal Roll entry further backs this up.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by TullochArd

[SLDreew]

If he enlisted in 1913, dispatched 1915, took part in Vimy Ridge 1917, and was discharged 1918, surely he had more than 83 days service? Also I checked the 73rd Brigade WD for Apr 1917 and found 'several acts of gallantry performed here' for 12 Apr 1917. Haven't checked other months though

 

But his card says he served for 2 years and 8 months?

Edited 4 September , 2021 by SLDreew

[Ivor Anderson]

30 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

any views on what "L/????" is after "1st Corps" on the above?

"L/G orders" = London Gazette orders?

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

6 minutes ago, Ivor Anderson said:

30 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

any views on what "L/????" is after "1st Corps" on the above?

London Gazette orders

That seems right, it looks like L/Index, so London Gazette Index

[TullochArd]

20 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

If he enlisted in 1913, dispatched 1915, took part in Vimy Ridge 1917, and was discharged 1918, surely he had more than 83 days service? Also I checked the 73rd Brigade WD for Apr 1917 and found 'several acts of gallantry performed here' for 12 Apr 1917. Haven't checked other months though

But his card says he served for 2 years and 8 months?

Fair comment indeed ...... the Medical Record indicates this is the case with 3 and 5/12 Colour Service of which 2 and 8/12 is Overseas Service.  You would therefore expect him, under normal circumstances, to be awarded a 14/15 Star.  There appears to be no record of this.  The SWB Record shows 83 days Overseas Service which is a clear contradiction. There is a lot missing including why a pre-War enlisted Pte soldier is not actually with his Battalion in France in 1914.