Looking for a WW1 Military Medal, Private J. Cassidy 4685 Leinster Regiment

[SLDreew]

Okay does this mean they were destroyed?

[Ivor Anderson]

8 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

and the MIC notes BWM/BVM as "Returned (1743 KR 1912)" suggesting these two are not "in circulation"?

Yes. Issued after his death to an old address and returned? They may be able to be reclaimed by a current next-of-kin and reissued?

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[TullochArd]

3 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Okay does this mean they were destroyed?

King's Regulations 1912 with amendments to 1st August 1914, Para 1743 (as a result of Army Order 409, 1913), has this to say about unclaimed medals:

'Medals which, at the end of 10 years, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the India Office (if granted for India service), or the deputy director of ordnance stores, Royal Dockyard (Medal Branch), Woolwich (if granted for other service) to be broken up'

[SLDreew]

I think you can only get replacement medals post-WWI

Okay. Seeing as my family kept the MM I’d guess they’d have kept his other medals too. I can always ask my cousin when I get chance

Edited 2 September , 2021 by SLDreew

[SLDreew]

Never mind, I just googled it, and you can apply for replacement WWI medals if the original was returned

Turns out actually they won’t replace them.

Edit 2: I’ve emailed them and they can actually be replaced! (campaign medals not the MM)

Edited 2 September , 2021 by SLDreew

[Ivor Anderson]

2 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

Important new information here, including MM a 1st Corps award 22-05-1917: 

Will look here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C4553760

I have looked through the 1st Corps AQMG war diary for May 1917, but despite lots of named MM awards I cannot see Cassidy among them: 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C4553760

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[doyle3]

1 hour ago, SLDreew said:

Thanks! I’m not sure he’d be listed as a casualty of the war as he died of TB after returning to Dublin.

Don't think I said about being listed as a casualty.

Sometimes soldiers/ex-soldiers who died at home were buried with local troops and/or band giving an escort, followed by a report in a local paper. Example attached from Aug 1917 for a soldier who died at home. It was probably more a thing in England/Scotland/Wales but something you might want to check. Papers potentially more interested given the MM award.

There has been a recognition at the time that he was military given that he was buried in Grangegorman rather than Glasnevin for example and no problems being recognised by IWGC/CWGC.

 

 

[SLDreew]

Strange that he’s not listed. I’m still looking through the 2nd battalion Leinster War Diary

[Ivor Anderson]

31 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Strange that he’s not listed. I’m still looking through the 2nd battalion Leinster War Diary

He may have been temporarily engaged e.g. as a runner with 73rd Brigade, 24th Division or 1st Corps during a major battle (Vimy?) to get a 'Special Award'?

The recommendation must have been misplaced at the time due to an administrative error to have been only gazetted in August 1919?

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

Ok where should I be looking?

is it still worth going through the war diary for Leinster?

Edited 2 September , 2021 by SLDreew

[Ivor Anderson]

There are no guarantees with a search like this. Many MMs are not listed for various reasons.

The late gazetting shows that there was a mix up somewhere. At least you have the Corps order date on his service record (& his will ref.).

I wonder if there is any mention of a gas attack around October 1917 when he was invalided home around 25th October?

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

Couldn’t see anything in October, will check September. 
Jan 1918 lists 60 MMs being awarded, no names mentioned though 

[SLDreew]

Several named MMs awarded Oct 1917, no mention of Cassidy 

[Ivor Anderson]

This I Corps awards page states the awards will be dated from 22/05/1917 - no Cassidy. However, the date fits his service record.

These MMs were gazetted on 9th July 1917 (e.g. P. C. Smith 13310): https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30172/supplement/6836

This gazette was for the 'Battle of Arras & Vimy Ridge, 9 April to 23 May 1917' (Williamson)

That gazette is before Cassidy's will of 1st August 1917. Perhaps he expected it to have been in it?

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson
Additional information

[SLDreew]

I’m really confused now, shouldn’t it be listed here?

[SLDreew]

Also, why isn’t there a list of medal recipients for each month? Surely it would be listed in the May 1917 one?

[SLDreew]

Looking back to his card, the date looks kind of unclear - what if it’s actually 22-6-17, not 22-5-17?

[Ivor Anderson]

18 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Also, why isn’t there a list of medal recipients for each month? Surely it would be listed in the May 1917 one?

If it was a Corps award it is unlikely to be in the battalion WD. Awards are not routinely/consistently listed in war diaries.

 

14 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Looking back to his card, the date looks kind of unclear - what if it’s actually 22-6-17, not 22-5-17?

I checked (see attached) no sign. Though that would give too short a period to be gazetted before his will on 1st August 1917: 

These were in the LG of 16 August 1917: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30234/supplement/8424

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[SLDreew]

So if he’s just not listed anywhere for the MM, how can we figure out what he got it for?

 

[Ivor Anderson]

1 hour ago, SLDreew said:

So if he’s just not listed anywhere for the MM, how can we figure out what he got it for?

The MM citations were destroyed. Without a newspaper report, battalion/divisional/war diary or regimental history mention we may never know exactly.

We are fortunate to have been able to pin it down as much as we have considering it was listed in the last MM gazette of WW1, over 2 years after the event.

I think he may have been acting as a runner during a major action like Vimy Ridge at Corps/Divisional level around April 1917. His award seems to have got lost in the recommendation system at the time? We are fortunate that we found the will and service record mentions that help us date it.

You can try the 73rd Brigade & 24th Division WDs around April-May 1917, but it is a time consuming long shot.

I would focus on trying to find his MM (BMF alert & check Regimental museums) and see what other readers contribute to this thread.

See if you can find out who the MM was sold to. It may have been a dealer who has records. 

Edited 2 September , 2021 by Ivor Anderson

[museumtom]

His MM may be recorded in the Dublin newspapers.

[SLDreew]

Okay, well it’s been good trying to find what we can! Thank you so much! 

So far, I have basically no replies on the British Medals Forum, and Medal Tracker hasn’t returned anything, so I guess I’m kind of stuck for the time being.

One thing though: how much is the medal likely to cost? To find it alone would be great so that I know it hasn’t been destroyed, but it’d be nice to have it in our family again!

[TullochArd]

21 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

Okay, well it’s been good trying to find what we can! Thank you so much! 

So far, I have basically no replies on the British Medals Forum, and Medal Tracker hasn’t returned anything, so I guess I’m kind of stuck for the time being.

One thing though: how much is the medal likely to cost? To find it alone would be great so that I know it hasn’t been destroyed, but it’d be nice to have it in our family again!

The MM has not been destroyed.  It has been sold and, although lost to you, it is certainly out there somewhere.  The BWM/BVM were "broken up" as "Returned" under K.R. therefore (based on my current understanding) could be re-claimed from the MOD Medal Office ....... but only by the proven NOK.

I  suspect that there might be some mileage in now approaching the Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians) Regimental Association with your query ......  you never know.  It is active and appreciative of The Leinsters contribution ...... and based in Eire.  It is likely that any such medal would be picked up by an interested party if it came on the open market.

Good Luck. 

 

Edited 2 September , 2021 by TullochArd

[SLDreew]

How can I contact the Association?

And who would be his next of kin if he had no children?

[TullochArd]

32 minutes ago, SLDreew said:

And who would be his next of kin if he had no children?

..... now that would be a legal interpretation based on the nearest surviving relative at time of death and their relationship to the direct descendants of today which, I would offer, is well beyond the scope of the GWF.

As for the Leinster Regiment Association ...... simply Google and declare your situation on their FB page.  See what comes up.  They will be certainly delighted with the background information gained so far and can hopefully can add more ...... maybe even locate the MM if it is in a local collection ......which would be marvelous. 

Good Luck.

Edited 2 September , 2021 by TullochArd