Great War Rifles

[Steve1871]

Yea, makes sense. Just the way I found it in the safe, thanks

[AndyBsk]

Chris make a correct opinion, same as the ring should be cylindrical probably, here is bented.

[Steve1871]

Yes Andy, I thought ring was bent. I never have time to correct everything in my collection and have no idea where I could find a original Mle 15. Or. 16. Ring??? Thanks 

[AndyBsk]

That could be already done by previous owner to better sit on sling so he bented it to this form, i would leave as is, or little bent to cylindrical form.

[Steve1871]

My last rifle, No. 12,  Mle 16

Anyone know about those larger WOOD pin’s for hand guard. Was that standard or some emergency thing to save on brass? Curious.   
Most rifles with hand guards that were pinned , used thin brass or steel pins

[Steve1871]

Rifle # 13

Berthier 1907/15 Carbine        
This is what people call the Turkish forestry carbine. It is Turkish marked in 1948. So this carbine I would guess, served in one way or another in both world war’s and kept soldiering on. To be honest, I do not know what, if any modifications were made for the Turkish side? I did not take too many photos, may be mismatch, these carbines do not seem too popular so I just did some quick general pics. 
 

Does anyone know how long Turkey used these carbines. After all, they started out being made and used in the Great War

[4thGordons]

@trajan Might be able to give you the low down on these.

I also have one. I believe the nosecap is from a Kar88 (or copied from them)

The story I heard (and I have not checked its veracity) is that these were used to arm paramilitary "park ranger" type guards who were protecting valuable timber lands against illegal logging / smuggling. The Lebel was chosen because of its uncommon calibre (in the region) meaning that if weapons were lost/taken they would be of limited use to the smugglers/loggers. I assume the carbine length was deemed to be more practical than the full length rifle when patrolling rough country and woodlands. The only modification of which I am aware is shortening the barrel, adding the nosecap and new foresight and turning down the bolt handle.

Chris

[Steve1871]

Thanks Chris. Not too valuable over here to collectors, but still interesting. Yours has same nose cap?

[AndyBsk]

Looks like shortening of Mannlicher Berthier M07_15 rifle made in Saint Etienne. So possible the rifle was used in WW1, the parts are missmatched to new turkish configuration.

[4thGordons]

7 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Thanks Chris. Not too valuable over here to collectors, but still interesting. Yours has same nose cap?

Yes mine is virtually identical to yours - except has a leather carry strap stitched to it. I wonder if they were all St Etienne ?

 

[Steve1871]

Chris

Yours have same Turkish stamping a on receiver?

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Chris

Yours have same Turkish stamping a on receiver?

Yes.

Chris

[AndyBsk]

Are these for 3 round clips? origin 8x50R Lebel cartridge? or for the newer D marked round?

[Steve1871]

The receiver was not modified, so should be for the original clips

[4thGordons]

Original 3 round but I think they are marked for the post war "Balle N" (see stamp on Receiver)

Chris

[Steve1871]

Yes. Ball N ammo, still 3 round clips I believe 

[AndyBsk]

So the rifles could be buyed by Turks only postwar, as the N Balle is probably 1925 or 1932 period?

[4thGordons]

7 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

So the rifles could be buyed by Turks only postwar, as the N Balle is probably 1925 or 1932 period?

Yes , actually probably purchased by Turkey post WWII I think.

Conversion dates I have seen appear to be late 1940s although the rifles all appear to have been 1907-15s of WWI vintage. (Presumably sold from French reserves that were being disposed of post WWII)

Chris

Edited 16 August , 2021 by 4thGordons

[Terrylee]

An SMLE Mk I* marked to the Natal Light Horse, a regiment which only existed during the invasion of German South West Africa.

[Steve1871]

Very nice and rare. You have a link for them to read?

[Terrylee]

A relatively obscure unit, but well covered in Wikipedia.

Natal Light Horse - Wikipedia

[Steve1871]

Thanks TerryLee

[trajan]

On 14/08/2021 at 16:50, 4thGordons said:

@trajan Might be able to give you the low down on these.

I also have one. I believe the nosecap is from a Kar88 (or copied from them)

The story I heard (and I have not checked its veracity) is that these were used to arm paramilitary "park ranger" type guards who were protecting valuable timber lands against illegal logging / smuggling. The Lebel was chosen because of its uncommon calibre (in the region) meaning that if weapons were lost/taken they would be of limited use to the smugglers/loggers. I assume the carbine length was deemed to be more practical than the full length rifle when patrolling rough country and woodlands. The only modification of which I am aware is shortening the barrel, adding the nosecap and new foresight and turning down the bolt handle.

Chris

 

You have it there Chris. 'T.C.ORMAN' as on Steve's example is for the Turkish Republic's Forestry Commission. As the calibre is obsolete they still turn up sometimes on the Turkish market.

Julian

[Steve1871]

Rifle #14.     
8/20/21

Japanese Murata Type 22 Short rifle.     
first, standard type. 
 
Serial 56318.   Matching.      
Mum intact 

The 2 holes in top of receiver are gas excape holes for a ruptured case. In the 1870’s - 1880’s, several countries adopted or at least trialed this idea, as many new cartridges and powders were being experimented.

The Murata Type 22 stood for 22nd year Meiji  reign, A 8mm black powder tube fed rifle with magazine cut off patterned after the Mauser  71/84 . The year was 1889. First saw service in the Russo/ Japanese war. It was replaced by the Arisaka type 30 and type 44 carbines, both of these seeing use during the Great War. It is widely said that the Type 22 was used in training during the war. Japan had very little involvement during the Great War. Mostly the Imperial Navy hunting German war ships and Raiders. The Imperial army used the war and siding against Germany as a reason to “ Use” China to March it’s troops south on mainland China to the German Colony of Qingdau/Tsingtao in Kiachow Bay. The German colony lasted from 1898 to 1914.  The Germans put up little fight. But it did give the Japanese a way to join the war.    
 

My short rifle here, shows wear, a big chip out of stock by right side receiver but otherwise pretty good. I do not know why, but the type 22 that I find for sale are usually beat up, many are missing bolts and parts. The only difference I know from my standard and late production ( about 100,000) was a spacer/brace fitted between the barrel and the tube magazine . The stock has a fair size cartouche but with age and all the nicks

The bayonet, with scabbard,there are the long pommel ( mine) and a shirt pommel. Most type 22 bayonets I have seen for sale are almost always dark with age/ patina and rust. This is the only Bright blade I have ever seen, jumped on it!. Has mum , Crysanthemum ( flower) sign on the Meiji emperor on cross guard, another symbol or writing on other side and a large 175 on side of pommel, guessing a school training number, army training

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 August , 2021 by Steve1871

[trajan]

Interesting grip on that bayonet with its space for the little finger!

Julian