Great War Rifles

[AndyBsk]

Excellent sample of a scarce japan rifle and bayonet, the locking distance is very short, possible that is the reason of lenghtening of pommel, as the usage of long slot, means a longer way to attached bayonet to fixed position. really very short wooden grips.

[Steve1871]

Rifle #15.       
8/27/21

Japanese Arisaka. Type 30 Carbine.   
 

Serial # 11778.         
MUM stamp intact.   For Meiji period    
there are 3 circles over stamp on it, forgot what that means. The Type 30 rifle and carbine were the first of the Arisaka line that stretched through 1945.  The Type 30 Rifle, 30th year of the Meiji Reign in 1899. The rifle and carbine were on hand from boxer rebellion through WW2, used by imperial army and carried on board ships for landing forces during Great War. 
  In 6.5 X 50 Arisaka cartridge.  Production was  Rifles 554,000. And only 45,000 carbines. All Arisaka rifles and carbines had their but stock cut near center to add a new half, grain going another direction, which was said to add strength. In China, cheaper versions were made of both rifle and carbine. Called Manchu rifles/carbines, the Manchu carbine, post war was chambered in German 7.92X57 Mauser as the North China type 30. Imperial navy called their type 30 rifles type 35 with very little difference. 
 

Being the beginning on smokeless era for Japan, they opted to add gas excape ports, those 2 holes in front of chamber area for ruptured cases. Also first Japanese rifle/carbine to use stripper clips. Every marking means something. I do not read Japanese, but on markings, just by clip guide is a small zero or “O”, have no idea.
The rear sight, release lever, small internal spring , push in to raise/ lower sight, I have not seen that type before.  Butt has expert wood filet insert repair by sling swivel. Nice burn brand on stock, faint on bottom but I like it. Decent amount of bluing left . Original brass tipped rod. Above average condition for me . Use standard type 30 bayonet used till end of WW2.  
One of the main things people remember and nick name the type 30 is the “HOOK “ Safety. No other Arisaka had this feature, When you are at the range, it is really nice to grip/use, but I guess in combat, in a hurry, soldiers could “stab” their finger or palm trying to work it too fast

[AndyBsk]

Very nice condition japan carbine, the maker is on bayonets visible too Koishikawa Tokyo Arsenal probably. 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Rifle #17.           
9/3/21

Japanese Arisaka Type 44

Designed in 1911 I think, almost 92,000 were made. The type 44 replaced the type 30 for the Calvary. The Japanese army liked both, but the Calvary had some problems, wanted even smaller/ at least shorter. The safty on the type 30 would dig into their backs, and the standard sling position had the type 30 carbine tend to twist, again, brushing backs of riders, last was the long type 30 bayonet. It gave the type 30 carbine a good reach, an exelent bayonet, but Calvary  still complained. 
The type 44, just like all Arisaka stifles/carbines had a two piece but stock, by cutting close to center, almost half of the butt off, to add a new piece with the grain going in different direction to give better strength.       
The overall length was reduced. The sling swivel was set  slanting at angle  and rear swivel was set on the left side of butt. Had a dust cover. Finger grip stock. To better help the Calvary , a new bayonet was made for it, being a spike cruciform type, permanently fixed to the carbine, the hook on right side, many people think it was meant to catch an enemy’s blade. I am not sure.       
There were 3 types, only difference being changing the mounting Backet for the bayonet. Mostly, spreading out the mounting screws farther apart 

My carbine is the 3rd type. In great condition. Mum intact, dust cover. Bayonet as unused condition. Still has the two gas escape ports  

The rather large accessory is a combo Muzzle cover, with flip up front to keep on and still use a cleaning rod, while the other end has a front sight cover hinged to it. An expensive accessory in great shape

 

 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Steve1871

[Mattr82]

 

Here is some of my collection of WW1 era rifles minus my Turkish Mauser. Top pic is all  No1 Mk3s and the second pic is just my 303s. I haven't been able to get all my 303s into the group photo but I do have more All these rifles have been used by Australia and a couple of them also have British, Sth African and Canadian markings on them even though they're made at Lithgow. Those rifles with other national stamps on them are likely Gallipoli rifles that were handed in for refurb in Cairo as they were Mk VI sighted rifles and Australia needed Mk VII sighted rifles for France before they left in early 1916 and those Australian force still operating in the Middle East had theirs finally replaced by early 1917. The ex-Australian rifles were then sent to the Enfield or Sparkbrook factories and refurbed and sent back out to the 4th Army who consisted of Britain, NZ, Australia, Canada and Sth Africa.

 

 

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Mattr82

[Steve1871]

Mattr82.       
They all Lithgow? Have slings and bayonets to dress them up? A stock for that one would be easy to find.  You have a nice collection there. You should create a post of your own to show each rifle for their marking, which can give them their own story, bring them to life so to speak, where made, to where they went, you say Sough Africa on at least one. Any odd or scarce markings and any unit markings on brass disc makes for more interest in the piece. I only have three. No. 1 Mk 3’s, one of them, converted with target sights

[Mattr82]

5 of them are all Lithgow. I don't have any Lithgow bayonets as yet but do have P1907 bayonets in my collection. I shall start a thread of my own. Thanks for the good and kind words mate I'm leaving the 'sporterised' rifle alone for the time being as that's its original wood with volley sight still on it from 1914

.

Edited 4 September , 2021 by Mattr82

[dman]

Murata 22 ?

Many of these obsolete rifles were dug out in the final days of "The Last Great Unpleasantness"  aka World War II to arm last ditch units in Japan for the anticipated Allied Invasion 

 

It may be a "war bring back"  -  US troops were allowed to take one firearm (Within reason ...) and one sword back with them as war booty 

 

[Steve1871]

Mattr82.    
the markings alone can tell a story. Those Enfield you have, are full of stamping.many members here love them, a challenge in a way for them to piece together the rifles life. From original configuration to what upgrades it had to where it may have served

Looking forward to your post!

[Steve1871]

Rifle #18        
9/10/21

U.S. Krag M1898.      
 

Sn:  456758.            
Maker.    Springfield Armory.         
Year. 1903.        
 

My rifle, M1989, in good working order, few scratches, bluing faded with age to even light grey mostly, but Exelent inspectors Cartouche. Have original Brass muzzle cover, correct Krag sling, breech cover and an empty cloth ammo bandoleer SOMEWHERE. At least I know where the muzzle cover is. Bore still have crisp rifling in it
 

To start. I do not think this rifle ever saw any real action on the western front. 
 

At beginning of Great War, the U.S. had 600,000 Springfield M1903’s and 160,000 Krag’s of all models (3 types) making up 21% of arms. The Krag was used in training in the states, even some British instructors were in an army base in Texas I believe with them, shown in photo, cited by ( Allied rifle contracts in America/ citing America’s munitions 1917-1918) 

The Krag was used in rifle training, even shooting, as well as National Guard and Coast Guard Patrols for enemy shipping and Sub watches.        
The main thing most of you gents will remember is the odd thing when the First AEF, American Expeditionary Force, came to England. They brought their a Krag M1898 rifles. They were replaced in England by a hurried shipment on Springfield M 1903 rifles. That photo is a very common one.      The U.S. Navy also modified some Krags for sub caliber to train with small deck cannons, thinking up to 40mm. It was called                      Rifle, Sub Caliber N my ark 1, Model 1
 

The AEF , In the book   The Krag Rifle story, U.S. Railway engineers took Krags to France. I honestly do not know. Also, the pic of an official manual here is dated 1917

[Steve1871]

Forgot add this one

[AndyBsk]

Looks like a very nice preserved Krag rifle, thanks for sharing it.

[dman]

As for the US Army Railroad Troops being armed with KRAG rifles, were better armed than many other armies 

 

Read that the French armed, at least initially, their supply train troops with 1874 Gras single shot black powder rifles with 10 rounds ammunition 

Later would buy thousands of 30-30 Winchesters for their motorcycle dispatch riders 

 

[Steve1871]

Sounds very interesting there DMAN, 

I think you are referring to the Gras Mle.74-80-14, I have one, but need take photos of it, the “80” was one upgrade, forgot, and the “14” was adding an 8mm Lebel barrel

The Winchesters, I only saw removed photo of 1 soldier in field posing with one. Would love to see regular photos of French Troops with them. 
 

For rear area/rail road/ P.O.W camps / border guards  there were around a dozen obsolete rifles brought back, freeing up newer ones for the front lines.

[4thGordons]

I have a decent Krag also -- it is marked to the Co C 8th IL Inf which is nice -- but it seems they only had Krags for a very limited time. The Krag action is very smooth and the .30-40 round is pleasant to shoot (but getting harder to find)

Interesting side note: The Krag bayonet scabbard appears to fit the British P1888 bayonet very well - they frequently show up together in auctions on eBay etc.

Edited 12 September , 2021 by 4thGordons

[Steve1871]

I do not remember a unit on mine anywhere. 
Post some photo’s when you have time, please. Curious. A lot of them were made

[dman]

For rear area/rail road/ P.O.W camps / border guards  there were around a dozen obsolete rifles brought back, freeing up newer ones for the front lines.

Germans dug out 25,000  Mauser 1887 in 9.5 mm black powder   These were leftovers from Turkish contract.  Turks had wisely inserted a clause in contract for (500,000 rifles , 50,000 carbines) which stipulated that if any improvements were made that Mauser were fill remainder of contract with the updated guns (1890 Mauser in 7.65 mm and 1893 also in 7.65 mm)    The 1887 were built from left over parts and used to arm the Wurttemberg Landsturm for rear echelon duties 

 

Germans also made use of captured Russian 1891 Mosin Nagants  .  Tens of thousands were captured early in war on Eastern Front at Tannenberg/Masurian Lakes 

 

[Steve1871]

Rifle #19.        
9/18/21

Turkish M93 Mauser.   
appears to be matching, not sure on Turkish writing.  ( it late, tired) will work up a history on this rifle in a day or two. It is best condition M93 I have ever seen. Hope you like

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Steve1871

[4thGordons]

That's super!

I haven't been able to track one down in its original calibre - great example!

Do you  have a bayonet for it?

Great to see

Chris

[AndyBsk]

Looks like excellent condition turkish M93 contract with lever for join magazine or not, the serial number could be 84140 but probably Julian will correct me. The long bayonets similar to M90 is harder to find unreworked or unshorted probably, the date could be only indication of the modell, the maker and date should be on left receiver probably.

[Steve1871]

Forgot to add that photo of left side rec., just put that in. Yes, I have either one or 2 original full length bayonets for it. And it is original caliber. The Turkish M93 was only one to have the magazine cut off

[Steve1871]

Andy, the serial number should be that number on 2 O’ clock position on chamber. Looking like an A with backwards 313, last 2 of these characters are on several parts, making it matching 

[Steve1871]

My bayonets for this Turkish M.93

[AndyBsk]

I assume left reciever is for 1312 year of Hijra calendar, in convertor of web it should be 1894/5 year? so the middle bayonet should be same date as the rifle, the other bayonets are 1310 and 1311 year. All bayonets have different makers. Normally the bayonets should have a serial number of rifle on crossguard.Yes the serial number is right receiver.

The left one 1310 dated should be WKC Solingen, the middle 1312 most real Suhl, could be Simson &Co?, the right one 1311 probably V.C.Schilling Suhl.

Edited 19 September , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thanks Andy, I do not know how to decipher Turkish, two different calendars and markings, I think there are 4 makers, so I need one more. Believe a friend/ collector has an early one in English / German Type of Maker marking

Edited 19 September , 2021 by Steve1871