Great War Rifles

[Steve1871]

Iwith my 3 storage units and several safes, I have “ LOST “ long rifles before or “FOUND “ rifles I do not remember buying, so something as simple as a rod, I will have to find some safe place to remember it

 

By the way Chris, do you recognize the rod as an early Enfield type or who knows? Thanks

[Steve1871]

Rifle #6              
6/25/21

SMLE  No.1 Mk.3

BSA & Co      
1916

 

Nice to have a war time production piece. 
On the wrist, after the III there is the 2 longer horizontal lines struck. Seen in photo’s many times, but forgot what they mean.

Bad part is the dreaded “ import markings “   
For several decades now, in the U.S., importers have to stamp their company somewhere on the gun/ metal. All collectors HATE that. I think this is the only WW 1 piece with that dreadful mark. Stock is too dark to my taste, but oh well. Stock disk, but blank

 

I am surprised to have volley sights and magazine cut off on a war time production, But I like them better this way

there is a ring/loop in front of the magazine for a sling swivel. We’re those swivels omitted  or should I get a sling swivel for it? Anybody know? Sorry that some of photos are a little out of focus

 

Edited 1 October , 2021 by Steve1871

[Steve1871]

[4thGordons]

That's a nice and interesting example Steve

Produce in 1916 by BSA as a MkIII* (mark three star) with the cutoff omitted.

Assuming that is the original foreend (as it looks to be) still fitted with the volley sights (not required to be be removed by the MkIII* designation although in practice often were later in the war as an optional simplification)

Then in the 1930s (it looks like 1937 from the stamp on the opposite side) it was remade to MkIII (NO STAR) spec by having the cutoff fitted (I would bet it might also have been rebarrelled too - you'd have to look under the upper handguard and see the date on the barrel I would bet it would be 1937 too although it may be the original if it was in good enough condition.

The two lines to which you refer are actually crossing out the asterisk (star)   *  showing the rifle is now in MkIII spec.

It is interesting because it also has the earlier windage adjustable rear sight (although it may well be pinned in place so be careful if you are tempted to adjust it.), it also has the earlier rear sight protectors with milled lightening cutouts etc -- so it looks very much like an early MkIII despite being produce as a mid war MkIII*

No need to fit a sling loop in front of the  magazine it was a throwback to the earlier long rifle designs and was not used on the SHtLE -- and later it was simplified to a wire loop for attaching an action cover. Later on No4 MkI(T) and even later versions a different sort of sling swivel was sometimes installed here, but yours is fine as is and gives you somewhere to attache the lace of the action cover when you get it!

I think the colour and appearance are great -- that is exactly how I like my ShtLEs really nice example that with a good combination of attributes.

Thanks for posting -- this for me is the iconic rifle.

Chris

[Steve1871]

Being far more of an expert than myself, I value your insite. . Information. Thanks a lot. 
It will be awhile yet before I try to go home to check, date under barrel and check a lot of other pieces

Original sling and muzzle cover would be great to add to it. In WW2, You guys changed to canvas slings. In Great War, I think you Brit’s had both leather and tan canvas type by 1918. Is that right?  Got box of all kinds of slings, 100+, but need friend to help me identify what I have first.

[4thGordons]

Standard WWI and WWII slings were very similar (mills woven with brass ends - but some variation in rivets/construction etc) however there were also a couple of patterns of leather slings used - older buff leather patterns and then those associated with the 1914 Leather equipment.

Karkeeweb is the place to check for British stuff CLICK HERE

Once you get to them a thread on slings would be fun!

Chris

[Steve1871]

Thanks Chris

[Steve1871]

Rifle #7

Mosin Nagant M91

1898 

An old one, a bit of a mix. I have not cleaned it at all, did not have time even to try wipe the old hard grease off

The chamber is dated 1898. But the stock has Russian Cartouche of 1894. This rifle saw action in both world war’s, serving with Russia, Captured by Germany in Great War,Sold off or given to Finland for their great “ Winter War” with Russia during WW2.

Being an early and standard M91, not a more common 91/30.  The rifle has not only the 1894 Russian cartouche, but the German property Cartouche which, at least in U.S. drove the price up a lot. It also has the early magazine with the sling swivel in front. The base plate on that piece is miss match, but being an early feature on an early gun. There is no way to know who install it. Russian armourer, German, Finnish, or simply a collector over the last century. But it has the exact age/ patina and all as the receiver, barrel and other parts. Just saying. Also had the SA in box for Finnish property. The bore should be good I hope, packed with old grease, which I hope protected it. Not too bad a rifle for 2 world wars and 3 owners

I have no idea of maker, I do not read Russian, and the large “S” on stock, have no idea on that either. It is another “Project “ for me. Hope you like. Sorry, my phone keeps loading full length photos upside down only. Have no idea why. Happened on 2 others. You should be able to turn them of simply ( copy) and then rotate them. Trying here 

[AndyBsk]

Interesting rifle as mentioned used more time, i would say the buttstock is 1894 could be Sestroreck serialing should be on buttplate, unfortunally when changed so hard to say, the magazine arrow speaks for early feature and Sestroreck production, the main receiver and barell is for Imperatorskij Tulskij oruzejnij zavod, which is Tula imperial Armory 1898, started life as a M1891 ogival cartridge the sights were replaced and reworked post 1908 for Spitz round, i dont known who removed the side numbering? the piece was mostly captured by Germans in WW1 -Deutsches Reich stamp and postwar sold to Finnland, where it was used by Suomen Armija SA and later by Homedefence S93482 there are good source in Gunboard about similar marking. Normally all major parts should be of same number.

D denotes chambering for finnish ammo, i assume the remove of older serial on sights was done by them, same as rework of rifle, which normally should be force matched. The S for Civil Guard is unfortunally ending by my source by 82000 so i dont known what District is the 93xxx. 

The buttstock is mostly french delivery of 1894, made by Chatellerault France, which is denoted by SCH in 12 oclock position  of cylindrical stamp, so certainly the rifle was mixed, why i dont known, could be done by finnish Homedefence, evidently it passed any typical finish reworks to M28/30 or other finnish configuration.

Edited 3 July , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thank’s Andy, I did not know you had such interest in rifles, One thing I not clear on. Your last paragraph you say Buttstock is mostly French delivery?? I would think Russia would make their own stocks. Just sound’s odd. Did France have contracts for Mosin  Nagants or for parts for Russia? I simply do not know

[AndyBsk]

You should look what for serial is on buttplate,in period of 1892-95 delivered Chattelerault half million of Mosin91 rifles to Russia,the buttstock is so stamped,the magazine body is too early production by Sestroreck.i was focused on some researches about Mosin91 bayonets,where i made some corrections for russian authors,mainly about the austro-ugrian using of Mosins.there are some new books.

Edited 3 July , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Terrylee]

Ross Rifles Mk III and III(B). The Mk III served in HMS Canada.

[Steve1871]

It was common practice among, most likely all navy’s to store Rifles on larger warships for “ naval landing parties”, marines or other names. I wonder if when they do, if a rifle would have the equal to a unit marking to belong to a certain ship or fleet?

I do not know the difference in the Ross Mk III and III (B)? New sights from a new bullet upgrade like the Germans and Enfield?

Have you taken them to the range? Hope so!

Thanks  TerryLee

[Terrylee]

Steve, The upper rifle, the Mk.III is deadly accurate. I have never bothered to shoot the Mk III(B). It was used as a target rifle and has a shot-out barrel. The Mk III(B) is from a batch manufactured by Ross for the British Government in the early days of the First World War. It is very similar to the Mk III, just having a somewhat simplified sighting system and modified swivel configuration. 

The Mk III has a more interesting history.  At the start of WW I, the almost completed battleship, the Almarente Littore, being built for Chile, was expropriated for the Royal Navy and renamed HMS Canada. As such, it participated in the Battle of Jutland. At that time my Mk III was serving with the Canadian forces. Later in the year the Canadians had their Ross Rifles replaced with SMLEs. The Ross Rifles were taken over by the British and mostly assigned to the Royal Navy. Several hundred, including my rifle,  were allocated to HMS Canada. After the war HMS Canada, including her Ross Rifles, was resold to Chile. While in Chilean service these rifles and their bayonets were stamped DA with a number, mine being DA 320. Departmente de Armada (SP ??). 

The Almarente Littore was scrapped in about1958 and sold to Japan. Here, some of her parts were used to restore the Mikasa. The Ross Rifles and their bayonets were eventually sold by the Chileans to a Canadian company from whom I bought mine in the early 1970s.            

 

[Steve1871]

Nice bit of history that you can hold in your hands!I wish I had any rifle where I could search actual history like that!

Collecting is like a treasure Hunt. Never know what gem’s you will find. Thanks again for sharing

[4thGordons]

On 03/07/2021 at 01:06, Steve1871 said:

Rifle #7

Mosin Nagant M91

1898 

An old one, a bit of a mix. I have not cleaned it at all, did not have time even to try wipe the old hard grease off

The chamber is dated 1898. But the stock has Russian Cartouche of 1894. This rifle saw action in both world war’s, serving with Russia, Captured by Germany in Great War,Sold off or given to Finland for their great “ Winter War” with Russia during WW2.

Being an early and standard M91, not a more common 91/30.  The rifle has not only the 1894 Russian cartouche, but the German property Cartouche which, at least in U.S. drove the price up a lot. It also has the early magazine with the sling swivel in front. The base plate on that piece is miss match, but being an early feature on an early gun. There is no way to know who install it. Russian armourer, German, Finnish, or simply a collector over the last century. But it has the exact age/ patina and all as the receiver, barrel and other parts. Just saying. Also had the SA in box for Finnish property. The bore should be good I hope, packed with old grease, which I hope protected it. Not too bad a rifle for 2 world wars and 3 owners

I have no idea of maker, I do not read Russian, and the large “S” on stock, have no idea on that either. It is another “Project “ for me. Hope you like. Sorry, my phone keeps loading full length photos upside down only. Have no idea why. Happened on 2 others. You should be able to turn them of simply ( copy) and then rotate them. Trying here 

Bit of catching up to do here:

Here are my 3 M1891s none of which are really as interestingly marked as yours and all of which show some modifications

One is similar to yours but without the impressive marking

1916 RUSSIAN PRODUCED RIFLE (some of the Tsarist markings peened out) and probably a replacement (spliced) stock.

 

REMINGTON (USA) PRODUCED RIFLE

(Bayonet with this rifle has what I believe is an Austro-Hungarian produced scabbard for the bayonet)

WESTINGHOUSE (USA) PRODUCED RIFLE

 

Chris

[Steve1871]

Thank you Chris!

Those would really look good in my collection😋

Most rifles from 1880’s through the Great War were modified, upgraded, the first being the sights when changing from round to spitzer  or the equal to. And other improvements. 
Enfields, Mauser, Mannlicher, and Mosin Nagant among others. 
 

Your trio here shows a nice variation. Remington And Westinghouse,  2 rifles produced in war time, nicer condition than mine. These rifles were used long after the Great War. I do not know if yours were upgraded to 91/30 standards, but from dates, are clearly M91 and are great part to ANY collection

Only other Mosin Nagant I have is that M1952 sniper ( matching) but too new for the forum.

Could you do a photo of all 3 tight together showing the chamber markings please. Also, any stock cartouche’s?

thanks again for posting 

Steve

[4thGordons]

6 hours ago, Steve1871 said:

Could you do a photo of all 3 tight together showing the chamber markings please. Also, any stock cartouche’s?

 

That's actually quite difficult as I keep them at a secured. Will this work.

Nest time I access them I will try and take a direct comparison for you.

Chris

 

 

[AndyBsk]

Chris, nice collection of russian M91 rifles, mainly the US deliveries are nice Remington and New Westinghouse, the second pictured bayonet M91 with metall scabbard is mostly romanian, as austrian never made this type of scabbards. Is copy of french Lebel type scabbard.

The first M91 one is made by Tula in 1916, hard to say the outdoting of russian eagle proof was made by Sowjets post 1917? Should be visible more details about serialing and other marking of the rifle presented here. Other parts marking bolt, buttstock, magazine body etc...

Spiced stock could be made by Finns probably. Maybe You should start a new thread about russian bayonets for Mosin rifle?

Edited 11 July , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

That’s good Chris, thanks

[Steve1871]

Rifle #8.  
7/10/21

Gew 91 Karbine   
Sn# 4966   Matching

C. G. Barbel.      
91. (1891). First year production.     
S proofed for Spitzer cartridge 

Do not see a unit marking, which is odd. 
On barrel/chamber, below the serial numbers, there is an i ??? Anyone know if it a inspector , acceptance mark or what? I do not remember seeing that on any guns before.With the dot above, it look like a small i, not a standard capital letter.

The muzzle cover ( artillery) is missing the separate leather strap, but a hard to find piece

[4thGordons]

That's a good example Steve. I am still looking for a '91 but I do have an '88.

Chris

[AndyBsk]

Is C.G.Haenel Suhl production,i is series letter,there is no unit as probably a depot piece not assigned to one,the muzzle piece is from Foot Artillery Rgt.nr.2,buttstock should be serialed 4966 on one place.

 

Edited 10 July , 2021 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Andy, if  (i) is series number, it should be a capital letter like all other guns I have ever seen. Could this mark be something else?

[AndyBsk]

Why it should be something else, i is series letter as normal by other rifle german production. You should get some good literature. By Gew.88 is too small case letter a series designation.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=66843 link with d series

What wrote H.D.Goetz i:Die Deutschen Militaergewehre und MPs  1871-1945  about Gew.91  the carbine was wrongly declared as rifle - Gew.91, as this have a short lenght the only difference to Kar.88 is the stacking rod on front of butt, under barell to stacking carbines into pyramide, the Gew.91 were major used by Foot Artillery so the muzzle piece could be from the unit where it was used.

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/Fuß-AR_2

The 1891 time frame were large state Armorys involved in production of Gew.88 so the short rifles and carbines were produced early by private firms of Suhl area, Haenel and Schilling produced a 200000 pcs- so the i range is about 100000 range fully correct. Barell lenght of 43,5cm is very short and brings unreal shooting to distances 1200m, even by the kick that made the hot ammo, mainly the spitz round.

I would think unit normally was stamped on muzzle ring but it could be too on lower ring of buttstock, and the unit was later removed? or as mentioned it was a piece of depot, as the condition is very nice of the carbine.

Edited 11 July , 2021 by AndyBsk