RNVR Able Bodied seaman?

[headgardener]

That photo of your aunt & uncle on board Iron Duke is really puzzling me. Iron Duke was scrapped shortly after WW2, and that photo looks like it was taken in the 1980s....... 

 

Are your uncle and aunt still alive? If so, could you get the story behind this photo as it raises a couple of important questions. Firstly, the ship that they appear to be on was scrapped in the late 1940s. Another HMS Iron Duke was recommissioned in the 1990s, but are they really on a modern fully commissioned warship? Secondly, I'm wondering whether they supplied the photo and the medals on display, or whether they got a copy of the photo understanding it to be your grandfather. The photo in the OP certainly looks like a copy rather than an original. Thirdly, looking at the medals in that cabinet, the star doesn't have a bar on the ribbon (compare it to the photo of him wearing the medals in 1933), and the last medal appears to have a different ribbon (as Bryan has already commented on) so it's possible that it's not the same medal, all of which makes me wonder whether what they're looking at is really what they understood it to be.

 

It's all very confusing. I would love to know what was in the 'write up' that they're looking at...... 

 

And do you have any idea where those medals are now....? 

 

 

 

Edited 11 September , 2020 by headgardener

[Simon Robert John]

To RNCVR

Brian died in 2002, so before that. I am in contact with Pauline, I will ask her if she knows.

Simon

[Simon Robert John]

To headgardener

Pauline lives and we are in contact. I will ring and ask tomorrow.

Simon

[headgardener]

Simon - when you speak to Pauline, also ask her whether there are more photos, documents, medals, etc. 

 

As an aside, if you look at the shelf that the photo is on, and look to the R of the photo, there's a small cylindrical object about 2" tall standing on the end of the shelf - it's a pen/paperclip holder made from the teak of the Iron Duke after it was scrapped in the late 1940s (I know because I have one, they were commercially produced after the ship was scrapped). If it came from the same source as the other items in the cabinet then this could support the notion that the person in the photo did serve on the Iron Duke. As to who exactly that person was is, of course, the big question atm....... 

Edited 12 September , 2020 by headgardener

[KizmeRD]

I agree with everything headgardener has pointed out - the image from the ship visit appears to be from an earlier period than when the Type 23 frigate ‘Iron Duke’ was first commissioned, and from memory I don’t recall the Wardroom flat looking anything like that. Also the medal group is similar, but clearly different, from that worn by the guy in RE uniform from the earlier posting.

 

[headgardener]

8 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I agree with everything headgardener has pointed out - the image from the ship visit appears to be from an earlier period than when the Type 23 frigate ‘Iron Duke’ was first commissioned, and from memory I don’t recall the Wardroom flat looking anything like that. Also the medal group is similar, but clearly different, from that worn by the guy in RE uniform from the earlier posting.

 

 

I was thinking that it looks like some sort of 'museum' ship - I couldn't imagine a glass fronted cabinet full of objects like that being fitted in a seagoing vessel. 

Edited 12 September , 2020 by headgardener

[Simon Robert John]

I guess this is from the same trip, 

[headgardener]

Certainly looks like it. I see that the Iron Duke & the Montrose are both Type 23 frigates, so presumably this must date the photo to later than we thought. Google indicates that they were both commissioned in 1991 and refitted about 10 years later, so presumably these photos were taken at some sort of 'open day' at either end of this period. Maybe the medal and photo display was part of some public outreach programme designed to obtain objects and stories relating to the ships' history? 

 

Is it possible that some of these objects belonged to Pauline's father I wonder? It's all a bit of a puzzle atm. I hope Pauline may have at least some answers to all the various questions....! 

[horatio2]

With two ceremonial ship's lifebuoys on display, I think we can assume that MONTROSE and IRON DUKE were berthed together with IRON DUKE outboard. Both ships 6th Frigate Squadron, Devonport-based.

Edited 12 September , 2020 by horatio2

[Simon Robert John]

Unfortunately Pauline isn't too sure about any of this, but she is trying to drum up family and friends to help look into it. She isn't sure if it was Dartmouth or Plymouth that they had this outing. She is doubtful that these are my grandfather's medals as my uncle (Frank) who had them in his possession was not keen on letting anyone have them. After he died his wife presumably had them in her possession but she left everything to a friend. When Brian asked about the medals no one knew what had become of them. She doesn't really know anything about his service except he served in both the navy and the army? Her daughter is looking out old photographs that Pauline gave her when they down-sized. Hopefully there will be something there. I guess that's it for now. I'll post as soon as anything new comes to light.

Simon

[headgardener]

So it sounds as though at least some of the items in that display case, including the photo in the OP, came from your uncle Frank? And Frank was Brian's brother (and therefore Reginald's son)? 

[Simon Robert John]

Yes, Frank and Brian were sons of Reginald. Pauline doesn't know if anything was from Frank, she sounded doubtful when I asked but maybe? I'm stuck. I don't think there's anyone else who might know. How would a sailor end up in the Royal Engineers? Even if he was a steam train driver that's an odd change isn't it? I'll keep digging.

Simon

[headgardener]

No, not that strange. Plenty of men flitted between the different services. He may have been in the post war RE Territorials, which would have been entirely in keeping with his pre war membership of the RNVR - both of them being 'spare time' engagements (except in the event of war, of course). 

 

So no one knows where exactly those medals plus the photo and 'write up' came from? (except, presumably, Brian's side of the family of course) 

 

You think there may be some further photos to come, though? 

[KizmeRD]

It’s not crystal clear - however the medal group that the RE is wearing looks to me like the 1914 (Mons) Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal and RNVR Long service medal, and that’s 100% consistent with an interwar period photo of a man who was a pre-WW1 naval volunteer reserve and  who was mobilised in August 1914 (initially serving in the RND and then later on as a DAMS gunner).

 

The fact that sometime after discharge from the RNVR/RND then went on and joined the Royal Engineers is neither here nor there (he certainly had sufficient soldiering credentials). However, the image of the medal group in the ship’s display cabinet looks more like a vanilla ‘Pip, Squeek and  Wilfred’ with the addition of an RN LS&GC medal (which, if correct, means that these would have belonged to someone other than Reg).

 

Good news is that we seem to have cleared up the fact that the later photos with your Aunt and Uncle were indeed taken aboard Iron Duke (F234), probably early to mid nineties, and that the most likely location was Plymouth naval base.
 

Still desperately seeking independent verification as to precise regulations regarding the award of RNVR efficiency chevrons worn on right sleeve (pre-WW1) but I’m not really doubting that Cdr. May got it right in his book on badges and insignia (as this was broadly in line with how the army territorial forces were going about things at that time, and RNVR ratings didn’t otherwise qualify for LS &GC stripes worn on the left forearm until many years later). What’s interesting is that pre-war photos of RNVR men wearing efficiency chevrons are rare indeed.

Anyway, we are moving forward (albeit slowly).

 

 

Edited 12 September , 2020 by KizmeRD

[RNCVR]

6 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

 What’s interesting is that pre-war photos of RNVR men wearing efficiency chevrons are rare indeed.

 

 

 

Yes very rare indeed! This first RPPC I have ever seen these chevrons & star worn this way, certainly threw me!

 

Thanks....Bryan

[horatio2]

Good summary of a muddy problem., KizmeRD.

I would only add one observation concerning the IRON DUKE display of an RN (I agree) trio plus LS&GC. and without a 1914 Star Clasp. The RN medal roll has no Reginald Johnson awarded a WW1 trio of any type - only four ratings so named and not one has a 1914 or 1914-15 Star. Perhaps the displays of the RNVR image and the medals are totally disconnected (or displayed together in error, although the medal naming should have made this obvious).

I wonder if IRON DUKE still has the display. The OP could write to the ship (enclosing the image) and ask.

[headgardener]

The display does appear to contain a trio + RN LS&GC. But this fact notwithstanding, Reginald Johnson's entitlement would appear on the RNVR roll surely?

 

EDIT: Sorry, just re-read your post. I think you're saying that there wasn't any possibility for the service details of 2 identically named men to have become conflated. I could envisage a situation in which the ribbons on his medals had been replaced, but the loss of the bar to the star AND the use of the wrong ribbon on the LS seems less likely.

Edited 12 September , 2020 by headgardener

[horatio2]

Complicated, or what?

Of the six (four RN and two RNVR) Reginald JOHNSONs on the (separate) RN & RNVR WW1 medal rolls, only 'our RNVR Reginald' earned a trio of medals. For the medals in the image to be his they must have (1) the 1914 Clasp removed AND (2) the RNVR LS and GC replaced by an RN LS & GC. The probablity must be that the trio in the IRON DUKE display image is named to an RN rating who was not a Reginald JOHNSON.

At least, that is what I think I mean!

[RNCVR]

12 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Complicated, or what?

Of the six (four RN and two RNVR) Reginald JOHNSONs on the (separate) RN & RNVR WW1 medal rolls, only 'our RNVR Reginald' earned a trio of medals. For the medals in the image to be his they must have (1) the 1914 Clasp removed AND (2) the RNVR LS and GC replaced by an RN LS & GC. The probablity must be that the trio in the IRON DUKE display image is named to an RN rating who was not a Reginald JOHNSON.

At least, that is what I think I mean!

 

Makes a lot of sense to me Horatio, regarding the medals, I was thinking along the same lines.  Who knows what happened to those medals & if whomever mounted them did not know what they were doing any ribbon was possible. & who those medals are actually named to!

 

Be sure nice to know if that display is still in existence on HMS Iron Duke.

 

Edited 12 September , 2020 by RNCVR
.

[Talesofaseadog]

17 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Good summary of a muddy problem., KizmeRD.

I would only add one observation concerning the IRON DUKE display of an RN (I agree) trio plus LS&GC. and without a 1914 Star Clasp. The RN medal roll has no Reginald Johnson awarded a WW1 trio of any type - only four ratings so named and not one has a 1914 or 1914-15 Star. Perhaps the displays of the RNVR image and the medals are totally disconnected (or displayed together in error, although the medal naming should have made this obvious).

I wonder if IRON DUKE still has the display. The OP could write to the ship (enclosing the image) and ask.

The Iron Duke is no longer operational, writing to the ship is not possible. 

I would suggest that the OP try to join the HMS Iron Duke facebook page, there is obviously a link with the ship and I am sure they would be happy to let you join if you explain.

The ship visit does seem to be arranged in some way and the link to the display cabinet has some significance.

Hopefully someone in the group will remember.

Tony

[Simon Robert John]

Pauline was unable to add anything really, Hopefully her old photos will provide further clues. By the way, the home address on Reginald's marriage certificate to Elsie gives the same address as the RND service card for Reginald 1/1165.

Talesofaseadog - thank for the suggestion, I hadn't thought of Facebook.

Simon

[headgardener]

Simon - obviously we're all hoping that you can turn something else up with Pauline's photographs or via the Iron Duke FB group.

 

I have a quick question for you - the photo in the OP, do you actually have it in your possession? Can you tell us what size it is? 

 

The reason I ask is.... I notice that Brian has annotated that 1990's photograph saying that his father's medals and 'write up' of his career(?) were in that cabinet, but there's no mention of the photo or of anything else. The various trinkets all look like they may simply be small items associated with the ship - such as that commercial souvenir dating from about 1950. I wonder whether the photo in the cabinet might simply be illustrative of a seaman wearing an Iron Duke cap tally and nothing more. I appreciate that it's hard to tell, but it doesn't appear to be mounted, and looks instead like a modern enlargement of a postcard-sized photo printed on standard photographic paper (hence it not being rigid, in the way that an old card-mounted photo would be). The image that you posted in the OP also looks a lot like a modern monochrome copy of an older 'toned' (probably sepia-tone) photo, which would explain some of the irregularities seen in the resulting image. I wonder whether that display on the ship may have been dismantled and the medals and 'write up' returned to Brian together with the unrelated photo of the Iron Duke sailor, and over the intervening years it has gradually become understood to be your grandfather despite it being completely unconnected. It certainly wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened, and it would explain the mis-match between the image and the service details. It wouldn't explain the reason why your grandfather's medals and 'write up' were included in the display, though. It's worth pointing out that it's only quite recently become easier for us to research seaman's service during WW1. The Registers of Service were only released into the public domain in the mid 1990s, and until relatively recently were only accessible on-site at the Public Records Office (now National Archives) at Kew. The RND service cards only became available on-site at the PRO around 2000 (or possibly later?). Tracing an RND man's service was nowhere near as easy as it is now, and only really became possible in the 2000's. Therefore, I wonder whether these documents were even available at the time that Brian (or whoever?) produced that 'write up' on the display case (which we presume dates from the 1990s), and therefore whether the 'write up' could have accurately related much about his WW1 service, let alone place him as serving on the Iron Duke. Maybe your grandfather owned that commercially produced Iron Duke paper clip / pencil holder and Brian simply put 2+2 together and thought that indicated that he served on the ship? Am just testing a theory, and would be interested to know whether the dimensions of the OP photo are similar to the photo in the cabinet. 

 

Edited 14 September , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

Here's a close-up of the commercially produced Iron Duke souvenir - it's the small barrel-shaped object in the centre of this clip (sitting at the end of the shelf) 

Edited 14 September , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

.... and here's a comparison photo of my own 'barrel-shaped Iron Duke souvenir' 

 

[headgardener]

If you look at the small brass(?) plaque on the object, it's easy to see how someone might imagine that their relative had kept it as a souvenir of their service at Jutland on the Iron Duke. In reality, these (and lots of other objects, including blotters, fire screens, ink stands, picture frames, etc - I've got a few myself) were made from the Iron Duke's teak after the ship was broken up in 1949.

Edited 14 September , 2020 by headgardener