RNVR Able Bodied seaman?

[KizmeRD]

The sleeve insignia is consistent with a pre-war RNVR able seaman of 5 years standing, but the cap tally is probably a red herring. It’s obviously a professionally posed studio photograph, so maybe the cap with an Iron Duke cap tally was simply kept handy by the photographer for use as a prop for those of his customers who were OK with the notion of fooling people (It added kudos).

 

Incidentally for sake of good order please note that the criteria for award of the RNVR Long Service medal was actually (and very surprisingly) for 12 years service in the volunteer forces, including cadet time from age 15. - If you don't believe it, see attached official regulations for the award of this medal (as published in January 1915 Navy List).

[RNCVR]

Thanks Kiz.

Iron Duke was Flagship of Grand Fleet during Adm Jellicoe's time as C in C, perhaps this rating wanted to be known as part of the ship's company of that flagship & thus wore her cap ribbon for this photo, a reason only known to him.

[KizmeRD]

It’s also just possible that he may have completed one of his pre-war annual (two week) continuous training periods as a temporary crew member of Iron Duke (this wouldn’t have been recorded on his service docs).

[headgardener]

23 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

It’s also just possible that he may have completed one of his pre-war annual (two week) continuous training periods as a temporary crew member of Iron Duke (this wouldn’t have been recorded on his service docs).

 

That wouldn't work if the cuff badges are consistent with 5 years service and the man we're interested in joined in 1912, though. 

 

Do you think those cuff badges create a time frame by which to date the photo? I got the impression from an earlier post that they disappeared 'during' WW1 which I'd guess might indicate that they became increasingly uncommon as the war progressed, but maybe it's also possible they were already an anachronism by the end of 1915?

 

Edited 10 September , 2020 by headgardener

[KizmeRD]

Many reservists were mobilised for the summer fleet exercises in 1914 just prior to the outbreak of the war and a lot of them served aboard capital ships as augmentees. I presume this could have been the case here. However, not sure how someone who only joined the RNVR in 1912 could have acquired five years seniority by August 1914 (unless cadet time counted). Still very possible that we don’t have the right man in the photo to match known service details.

Edited 10 September , 2020 by KizmeRD

[KizmeRD]

35 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Do you think those cuff badges create a time frame by which to date the photo? 

 

From what we understand, the cuff badges simply indicate a AB qualified RNVR rating of 5 years standing (problem is that he only joined RNVR late in 1912).

The ‘Iron Duke’ cap tally (if authentic) means that the photo couldn’t have been taken anytime prior to March 1914 when the ship commissioned. We also know that he became part of Drake Battalion on 22 August 1914 so my guess is that the photo was taken early August 1914 after returning home from the fleet exercises. It’s also possible that immediately prior to enlisting in the RNVR he had been a sea cadet.

[headgardener]

Thanks, that makes sense. Are you saying that service as a Sea Cadet could have counted towards his '5 years service' in the same way that it might count towards the award of an RNVR LS medal? 

 

EDIT: Sorry, only just spotted your earlier post. So there is still a question mark as to whether the photo in the OP can be Reginald Johnson RNVR 1/1165. 

With regards to the cuff badges, I thought someone posted earlier that each chevron indicated 1 year and a star indicated 5 years - so wouldn't 1 star + 2 chevrons = 7 years? Apologies for being a bit dense, am just trying to get my head around it.....! 

Edited 10 September , 2020 by headgardener

[KizmeRD]

One further problem with matching the photo to the service record is the fact that at the time he joined Drake Bn. RND he was rated O.S. and was only bumped up to A.B. on 14.9.14.

[horatio2]

2 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

We also know that he became part of Drake Battalion on 22 August 1914 so my guess is that the photo was taken early August 1914 after returning home from the fleet exercises.

Where does this come from? Ordinary Seaman JOHNSON was mobilised to Bristol Division RNVR HQ on 2 August 1914 (like most pre-war reservists of the RNVR) and remained in Bristol until joining Drake Battalion 'A' Coy at Walmer Camp on 22 August, as detailed on his RND Record card.

[KizmeRD]

I’m sorry but not entirely sure what point is being questioned. It’s well documented that in July 1914, as tensions were rising between Great Britain and Imperial Germany, the Royal Navy was busy at sea conducting large scale annual fleet manoeuvres. This sucked in vast numbers of naval reservists, most of whom were involved in the test mobilisation of the Third (Reserve) Fleet, however other reservists were also required to supplement the crews of many of the larger units of the regular navy. I’ve read this in a number of personal memoirs detailing RNVR rating’s personal experiences of transitioning from peace to war. 

Reservists who were participating in these immediate pre-war fleet manouveres were only partially demobilised before full mobilisation for war was ordered on 2 August. If Johnson was involved, then it’s possible (not a fact) that he may have returned home only to have to report to his Bristol RNVR unit only a short while later. And he may, or may not, have been temporarily serving aboard Iron Duke during those July manoeuvres.

 

As we know, men destined to join the RND were not required to report to Deal before 22nd August, so it’s again possible (not a fact) that after his call out on the 2nd he remained at home in Bristol until his subsequent journey to the Kent coast. (The RNVR building in Jamaica Street wouldn‘t have been big enough to billet everyone).

 

That said, I still remain sceptical that we have the right man wearing the right uniform in the OP photograph.

[Simon Robert John]

To 

headgardener, the service card could not be described as ship-shaped and Bristol fashioned (sorry), I'll have a go at an excel sheet to try and join up the dots. And yes, he did have brothers but I have not yet found any information about them except christening records. 

RNCVR & horatio2, I got suckered by Pic didn't I? Thank you for clearing that up.

KismeRD, thank you for the upbeat posts, this is obviously way out of my league.

All, I am hopeful I will be able to post more information soon, I am waiting for responses from 2 relatives and hope to draw a few more in to contribute. From a position of complete ignorance I feel blessed to have received so much help from everyone, thank you.

Simon

Oh, by the way, OP?

One more, should horatio2 and KismeRD be allowed on the same page?

[KizmeRD]

Simon, OP means ‘Original Posting’

Looking forward to further information on the existence of older brothers, as perhaps this might solve the current dilemma of mismatched uniform and service record. 

And for the record, I do in fact have very great respect for horatio2’s immense knowledge and contribution to the forum on all matter’s naval.

Michael
 

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

Simon, OP means ‘Original Posting’

Looking forward to further information on the existence of older brothers, as perhaps this might solve the current dilemma of mismatched uniform and service record. 

And for the record, I do in fact have very great respect for horatio2’s immense knowledge and contribution to the forum on all matter’s naval.

Michael
 

 

Agree with Kiz, we really need more info to solve this dilemma.

 

l add, as with Kiz, I also respect Horatio's knowledge & contributions.

 

Best to all...Bryan

[headgardener]

Simon - do I recall you saying that you don't have the original of the photo in the OP? If not, could you find out which branch of the family it came from and whether there are any details accompanying it? (maybe there's an annotation or photographer's name on the reverse, or a family photo album that it came from).

 

You couldn't get 2 more knowledgeable and helpful naval experts than KizmeRD and Horatio2, and I'm certainly looking forward to their comments on any future information regarding Reginald Johnson/Jones' naval career. The forum often thrives on robust debate - something to which us regulars can all attest, I think......! 

[KizmeRD]

Yes, clearly I’m struggling to fill in the blanks and making too many suppositions (which obviously drives horatio2 nuts).
Looking forward to resuming the quest once we have a little more feedback from Simon.

[Anneca]

This thread is certainly much more interesting than filling in blanks in a crossword and certainly better than watching Poirot!  It unquestionably demonstrates the extensive knowledge of some members of the Forum.

Anne

[horatio2]

I wouild merely add that we are all 'seekers after the truth' (insofar as it can be determined) and variance of opinion is a fundamental part of this process. Theories must be floated and tested (sometimes robustly). KizmeRD and I are united in this effort, despite occasional disagreements. That is the way the GWF must work.

[Simon Robert John]

To KizmeRD and Horatio2

Apologies, I thought I was being funny, famous deathbed words from Admiral Nelson (Horatio). You are most kind to have contributed, and clearly have extensive knowledge and I value your input greatly. I did not intend anything more and I too like to follow the debates of knowledgeable people in any forum. I certainly need the education.

Apologies to anyone who who thought I was being offensive. Simon.

[Simon Robert John]

To headgardener

I don't have the OP photo (thanks to those who explained). I have asked if there are any markings on either the photos and expect a reply shortly. 

Reginald's brothers were Thomas A. b. 1883, Albert Frederick b. 1892, and Alfred b. 1897. I have nothing more than census 1901 and 1911, and christening records (for the younger two). (Nearly all the siblings were christened together in 1906.)

Simon

Edited 11 September , 2020 by Simon Robert John
Poor english.

[RNCVR]

20 hours ago, Simon Robert John said:

To 

RNCVR & horatio2, I got suckered by Pic didn't I? Thank you for clearing that up.

 

 

No Simon, not at all, you had no way of knowing who the sailor was in that photo.

You came here to learn & we are here to try to assist you if we are able.

From this discussion I have learned something I did not know!

 

I for one have really enjoyed this fascinating topic & love the old RPPC's!  It is very unfortunate that so many are not ID'd & their identities lost for ever.

 

Best....Bryan

Edited 11 September , 2020 by RNCVR

[Simon Robert John]

To anyone who can make sense of this. My aunt and uncle visited HMS Iron Duke, and my father wrote on the photograph "Brian and Pauline aboard HMS Iron Duke. My father's medals and write up of him outside the officers' mess." It appears to be the OP! Simon. Does anyone know someone who could vouch for this?

I realise I still have no proof the man is my grandfather, but I rather would like it if he was.

Edited 11 September , 2020 by Simon Robert John

[Simon Robert John]

To all

The photos are mislaid at the moment so that will have to wait.

RNCVR - I meant the abbreviation PIC for Protection and Identity Certificate, I'm still under the belief (or delusion) that that sailor is my grandfather.

Um, RPPC?

Simon

Edited 11 September , 2020 by Simon Robert John

[Simon Robert John]

To All,

The only original photo of Reginald is the later one. "Taken Apple Pie Camp June 1933"?

Edited 11 September , 2020 by Simon Robert John

[RNCVR]

Simon,

 

RPPC is a term used over here in Canada & US for Real People(or Person) Post Card.

Its basically what amounts to a photo of a person or a group of people.

 

Best.....Bryan

[RNCVR]

3 hours ago, Simon Robert John said:

To anyone who can make sense of this. My aunt and uncle visited HMS Iron Duke, and my father wrote on the photograph "Brian and Pauline aboard HMS Iron Duke. My father's medals and write up of him outside the officers' mess." It appears to be the OP! Simon. Does anyone know someone who could vouch for this?

I realise I still have no proof the man is my grandfather, but I rather would like it if he was.

 

Interesting  photo Simon, any idea of when this photo was taken?

The last medal in his medal group sure appears to be the ribbon of the RN LS medal, not the RNVR LS medal.

Best....Bryan