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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

RNVR Able Bodied seaman?


Simon Robert John

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1 minute ago, Simon Robert John said:

To RNCVR,

Is the sleeve insignia not standard rank? What could the other medal be?

Simon

 

Simon, I have been collecting RN for over 50 yrs & have never seen sleeve insignia like this rating is wearing.

I dont know what the 4th medal is, I am currently looking in MYB to try to determine that.

 

Best....Bryan

 

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Just now, RNCVR said:

 

Not necessarily, the RN LS medal had a straight suspension but this rating (apparently) was RNVR(?)

& I am not certain this has been positively established as yet?

 

Presumably he could have had post war service in the RN. But that ribbon - it wouldn't match an RN or RNR or other naval LS, would it? 

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2 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

That star on his sleeve looks like the type usually worn on the upper sleeve doesn't it? 

 

Yes, it is a rate badge qualification star.

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To PRC,

Reginald's birth was recorded on the 23rd March 1895 as being on the 10th of March. I've also seen his birthdate being given as the 23rd. I saw the 1939 census(?) with that address on, I think it is the same man.

Simon

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1 minute ago, headgardener said:

 

Presumably he could have had post war service in the RN. But that ribbon - it wouldn't match an RN or RNR or other naval LS, would it? 

 

I doubt it, ribbon appears to be an RFR LS medal but (again)  incorrect suspension.

 

& NO evidence as yet this rating was RN!

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RNR LS medals had straight suspension but that ribbon does not match, RNR ribbon was dark green which, with orthochromatic film, would show up almost black.

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One of the interesting aspects is the 1st medal that he's wearing. It looks like he's wearing a bar on the ribbon which would indicate that it's a 1914 star. But none of the service records so far cover this period. 

 

Given that he was serving in the RE sometime in the 1920s or 30s then the MOD should have his service record. There is a list of records that they still hold for individuals born before 1900 - can anyone tell whether he's on it? 

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To headgardener,

If Alice Jones is the mother of Z/2249 I have the wrong service record. Reginald's mother is named as Eva Kate Jones (b. Jackson) on his birth certificate. It would also explain something I saw about the Welsh RND.

Simon

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I looked for his name in the RN ratings service records - there are plenty of Reginald Jones', but most had other names and none showed that birthdate. 

 

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1 minute ago, Simon Robert John said:

To RNCVR,

I have the wrong service record, apologies.

Simon

 

 

No apology necessary Simon, hopefully we can, as a group, figure out who this rating & soldier was!!!

 

Best...Bryan

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To headgardener,

Is the sleeve insignia not known? It can't just be in the wrong place surely?

I have the wrong service record. I don't think I have anything to hand to help clear up any of this.

Simon.

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May I thank you all for your time, as soon as I learn something more useful I will post it here. Thank you all for your help, hope to get back to you soon.

Simon

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13 minutes ago, headgardener said:

One of the interesting aspects is the 1st medal that he's wearing. It looks like he's wearing a bar on the ribbon which would indicate that it's a 1914 star. But none of the service records so far cover this period. 

 

 

 

 

Appears to be the clasp to the 1914 star to me also Headgardner.

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The star on the sleeve should be on his upper sleeve (assuming he was entitled to wear it). The only chevrons that I can think of that would be worn on the lower sleeve were what were known as 'overseas service chevrons', but these were a very different shape to the ones seen here. The 'wavy' appearence matches the RNVR style of cuff rank, but he's not wearing cuff rank, and he's not an officer. It's a puzzle..... 

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RND qualified for the 1914 star & clasp- if he was indeed RND he might have qualified for his service in one of the RND units.  ie: Howe, Nelson, Collingwood etc.

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1 minute ago, headgardener said:

The star on the sleeve should be on his upper sleeve (assuming he was entitled to wear it). The only chevrons that I can think of that would be worn on the lower sleeve were what were known as 'overseas service chevrons', but these were a very different shape to the ones seen here. The 'wavy' appearence matches the RNVR style of cuff rank, but he's not wearing cuff rank, and he's not an officer. It's a puzzle..... 

 

 

Deffo a mess I agree, only RNVR Officers wore the "wavy" style of sleeve lace, but this is NOT an Officer & its the incorrect shape, it should not be an inverted V shape!

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8 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

RND qualified for the 1914 star & clasp- if he was indeed RND he might have qualified for his service in one of the RND units.  ie: Howe, Nelson, Collingwood etc.

 

There isn't an RND card for anyone with this name and birthdate though. The man identified by Simon has an RND card but the next of kin (mother) is wrong. 

6 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

 

Deffo a mess I agree, only RNVR Officers wore the "wavy" style of sleeve lace, but this is NOT an Officer & its the incorrect shape, it should not be an inverted V shape!

 

It looks the same size as the lace trim on the flap (sorry, don't know the exact name) on the collar of the Rating's jumper. I've seen a couple of images of RNVR men with 'wavy' trim. Could someone have simply taken some of that trim and sewn it onto the lower sleeve of a jumper and added a Ratings badge to create something that looks a bit like an Army QM's sleeve rank? It just doesn't add up.... 

Edited by headgardener
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I know what you mean HG, I too have seen the wavy tapes on the rating's collars.  Never seen them on sleeves tho. 

 

Perhaps this man(men) have too common a name to determine exactly who he (they) was\were.

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RNVR first formed 1903.

 

"To encourage efficiency, a man who had been reported as efficient at his last annual training wore a chevron of waved gold braid, point upwards, on his right sleeve. If he had been efficient for five years, a star was added above the chevron and when for ten years a second. A man qualified as a trained man, later described as having passed for able seaman, wore two chevrons but no stars. These badges disappeared during the first world war."

Badges & Insignia of the British Armed Forces, Cdr. May.

 

Not exactly the same as worn in the photo but gives an idea of what they are.

 

ARABIS. 

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16 minutes ago, Simon Robert John said:

To headgardener,

Is the sleeve insignia not known? It can't just be in the wrong place surely?

I have the wrong service record. I don't think I have anything to hand to help clear up any of this.

Simon.

 

Its nothing I have ever seen Simon, no idea what it represents.  If its something he just made up & wore he would never never get away with it for long!

If we are unable to pin down a Service Record(s) for him it may always be a mystery.

 

But interesting none the less!

 

Best....Bryan 

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5 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

RNVR first formed 1903.

 

"To encourage efficiency, a man who had been reported as efficient at his last annual training wore a chevron of waved gold braid, point upwards, on his right sleeve. If he had been efficient for five years, a star was added above the chevron and when for ten years a second. A man qualified as a trained man, later described as having passed for able seaman, wore two chevrons but no stars. These badges disappeared during the first world war."

Badges & Insignia of the British Armed Forces, Cdr. May.

 

Not exactly the same as worn in the photo but gives an idea of what they are.

 

ARABIS. 

 

Thank you for posting this - I've never come across it before. Am I correct in understanding that the Rating in that photo would have 7 years efficient service? (a star for 5 years and 2 further annual chevrons). 

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To headgardener,

On his birth certificate he is named Reginald Johnson, and his father Frederick John Jones, mother Eva Kate Jones formally Jackson, the address as Easton, Bristol. 

He was named Reginald Johnson Jones on the marriage certificate with Elsie Mary Beesley, in Liskeard in 1919. He seems to have started joining Johnson and Jones with a hyphen sometime after that, and all his children are officially Johnson-Jones.

Simon

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4 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

"To encourage efficiency, a man who had been reported as efficient at his last annual training wore a chevron of waved gold braid, point upwards, on his right sleeve. If he had been efficient for five years, a star was added above the chevron and when for ten years a second. A man qualified as a trained man, later described as having passed for able seaman, wore two chevrons but no stars. These badges disappeared during the first world war."

 

Just trying to understand the maths on this. If these insignia were unique to the RNVR which came into existance in 1903 and signify a man who has been rated efficient for 10 years but the insignia disappeared during the Great War - then how does that add up for a man believed to have been born 1895? Even if he joined at 14, (if he could) and years pre reaching the age of 18 counted, that still takes us through to 1919 at a minimum, some of which he would have been mobilised for and therefore not attending annunal camp?.

 

Or am I being a nautical numpty :-)

 

Bemused of Norfolk

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