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Remembered Today:

RNVR Able Bodied seaman?


Simon Robert John

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6 minutes ago, ARABIS said:

RNVR first formed 1903.

 

"To encourage efficiency, a man who had been reported as efficient at his last annual training wore a chevron of waved gold braid, point upwards, on his right sleeve. If he had been efficient for five years, a star was added above the chevron and when for ten years a second. A man qualified as a trained man, later described as having passed for able seaman, wore two chevrons but no stars. These badges disappeared during the first world war."

Badges & Insignia of the British Armed Forces, Cdr. May.

 

Not exactly the same as worn in the photo but gives an idea of what they are.

 

ARABIS. 

 

Thanks Arabis.  I have that book but never thought to check it!  In which case that medal might be the RNVR LS medal, but again, the ribbon appears incorrect.

View last medal in this group.

Wiggins.1.JPG

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To ARABIS,

Thank you, I was beginning to wonder if there was some sort of fraud. Might he have been a cadet or similar, I'm not sure he looks old enough to have 7 years service?

Simon

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5 minutes ago, Simon Robert John said:

To ARABIS,

Thank you, I was beginning to wonder if there was some sort of fraud. Might he have been a cadet or similar, I'm not sure he looks old enough to have 7 years service?

Simon

 

He does look very young tome as well.  Perhaps HG can assist us now he has Got him!

as a PS - RNVR ratings req'd 12 yrs from age 18 to qualify for RNVR LS medal, war service counting double.

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He has an RNVR service record and an RND service card. I'm using a mobile phone and am not sure how to attach links - maybe someone else can help me out on this? 

 

Basically, he enlisted in RNVR as Reginald Johnson (not Jones) in 1912, Bristol Division, son of FJ Johnson of Redland, Bristol, and was employed as an engine cleaner by GWRAILWAYS. Served Drake Division RND 1914, then Gallipoli. The RND service card take a bit of time to create a timeline with, so I haven't read through it all. Couldn't see a reference to Iron Duke, but that doesn't mean it's not there. He must also have a post war service record which should be with the MOD. 

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Simon - you're going to have to download a couple of documents from the National Archives, then create a timberline from them if you want to understand what he did during WW1 - looks like quite an interesting story from what I could see. If you spend £30 you should be able to get his post war army service parts from the MOD. 

Just now, Simon Robert John said:

To headgardener,

Fabulous! Thank you, do you have the service number? How did you manage this on a mobile?

Simon

 

 

Service number was 1/1165

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To headgardener,

Thank you very much for your time and effort, you can be sure I will find out what I can and come back to you all.

THANK YOU ALL, esp headgardener.

Simon

 

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Simon - a quick word about the RND service cards. They can be very difficult to interpret. The info on them isn't entered chronologically - the clerks just typed details in wherever there was space, so I find it helps to write down each dated entry on a timeline, otherwise it's just too confusing. I'm sure you'll have some questions, so come back and ask us and I'm sure the many learned members of the forum will be happy to advise. Based on a brief reading of the documents, my understanding is that your man served at Antwerp in 1914 and at Gallipoli in 1915 - these were 2 very famous and well recorded battles, so you may find out quite a lot about his role in them. I look forward to hearing your findings....! 

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3 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 

Thanks Arabis.  I have that book but never thought to check it!  In which case that medal might be the RNVR LS medal, but again, the ribbon appears incorrect.

View last medal in this group.

Wiggins.1.JPG

 

I think you're right, it is an RNVR LS and the ribbon does look wrong because it's shown on orthochromatic film so the tones appear 'wrong' - the actual stripes on the ribbon are the right dimensions though, and it's got to be one of the only plausible LS medals with a straight suspender. And he was RNVR, of course. He joined in 1912 so i calculate that he'd have qualified for the medal by 1919.

Edited by headgardener
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14 hours ago, Simon Robert John said:

To PRC,

Reginald's birth was recorded on the 23rd March 1895 as being on the 10th of March. I've also seen his birthdate being given as the 23rd. I saw the 1939 census(?) with that address on, I think it is the same man.

Simon

 

Another one for the mix - his RNVR \ RND records show him as born 23rd March 1894.

 

On the RNVR record the equivalent reference that you thought meant picture on the other candidates records is clearly shown as an acronym P.I.C.. In both cases the associated date ties in with a period when they they were on demobilisation leave - which would be a stange time for the Navy to want to take an official picture of them. However what P.I.C. means I haven't the foggiest..

 

Altough there is no reference to Iron Duke on either set of records, on that for the R.N.V.R in the section "Remarks" there is this comment.

"N.17 approves of this mans transfer to sea service if medically fit"

It's not dated, but given that we are potentially talking seven years of being an experienced man and he enlisted 1912, then the picture could have been taken in 1919 just prior to his demobilisation. Demobilised on the 1st April 1919, he would have been just 25 as far as the Navy was concerned and just 24 as far as the civilian records were concerned.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
Typo
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P.I.C. = Personal Identity Certificate I think.  When a rating went to pension.

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1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

I think you're right, it is an RNVR LS and the ribbon does look wrong because it's shown on orthochromatic film so the tones appear 'wrong' - the actual stripes on the ribbon are the right dimensions though, and it's got to be one of the only plausible LS medals with a straight suspender. And he was RNVR, of course. He joined in 1912 so i calculate that he'd have qualified for the medal by 1919.

 

Yes Hg, that makes sense for the award of RNVR LS.  

 

& I agree with you concerning difficulties with ortho film being hard to determine correct colours for a positive ID. But the RNVR LS certainly makes sense now with the great amount of information supplied. 

 

Be nice to have a view of his RNVR\RN Service Record tho....

 

Best....Bryan

 

Edited by RNCVR
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9 hours ago, PRC said:

However what P.I.C. means I haven't the foggiest..

This refers to the Protection and Identity Certificate issued to a man on demobilisation. It has nothing whatever to do with "pictures" or photographs.

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I've got a nagging question in my mind - are we certain that the RNVR Rating in the OP is the same man who served at Antwerp in 1914 (service number 1/1165)....? The reason I ask is that I've had a look for references to him serving on Iron Duke (as per the cap tally in the OP), but can't find any. If the efficiency badges on his lower R sleeve definitely indicate a minimum of 7 years service (assuming wartime service didn't count double, or something like that), then the photo must have been taken no earlier than 2 Dec 1919 by which time he appears to have been discharged. I'm wondering whether the man in the Iron Duke tally might be a brother? Could any of the naval experts give an opinion on this?

 

Simon - did your man have any brothers who could have served in the RNVR around WW1? 

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I agree. Reginald JOHNSON, Bristol 1/1165, enrolled 2 Dec 1912, served with Drake Bn Antwerp (1914 Star and Clasp), MEF and BEF 1915-1917 was discharged from the RNR to Sea Service 14 Jan 1918. Such a transfer was commonplace for RND ratings. Trained as a Seaman Gunner and Gun Layer, he served at sea in the Armed Boarding Steamer HMS SNAEFELL and (on the books of HMS PRESIDENT III) as a DAMS gunner. IRON DUKE does not feature in his drafts.

 

I find it impossible to reconcile the OP image with the man described above.

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3 hours ago, headgardener said:

I've got a nagging question in my mind - are we certain that the RNVR Rating in the OP is the same man who served at Antwerp in 1914 (service number 1/1165)....? The reason I ask is that I've had a look for references to him serving on Iron Duke (as per the cap tally in the OP), but can't find any. If the efficiency badges on his lower R sleeve definitely indicate a minimum of 7 years service (assuming wartime service didn't count double, or something like that)

 

War service for RNVR ratings counted double time.

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4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

This refers to the Protection and Identity Certificate issued to a man on demobilisation. It has nothing whatever to do with "pictures" or photographs.

 

Thanks Horatio.

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5 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

War service for RNVR ratings counted double time.

 

Yes for LS awards, but Did that also apply to efficiency decorations? If so, and if the efficency star + chevrons in the OP amount to 7 years, then he'd have earned that by no later than about 1917. If not, then assuming the photo in the OP is him, it couldn't be earlier than Dec 1919.

 

I suspect the 2 photos may be 2 different (probably related) people. 

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I could not tell you about Efficiency decorations as those applied to Reserve Army officers & out of my interests & knowlege.

 

Also I cannot see this rating wearing this sleeve insignia that late in the war also, if abolished before or earlier in war as mentioned in a post above.

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20 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

I could not tell you about Efficiency decorations as those applied to Reserve Army officers & out of my interests & knowlege.

 

Ah... Maybe we're talking at cross purposes. I understood that the star and chevrons were for efficient service. Maybe I should have described them as awards or badges rather than decorations. I think we're agreed on the principal point, though. The time frame for the man in the 2nd photo doesn't appear to match the evidence in the 1st photo. 

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